Is this the end of Thailand as a Retirement Destination

[blackprince]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

If they can pay their own way, why not?

Although I doubt many could afford UK housing, I certainly can't.

I'd definitely prefer retirees with pensions to refugees with nothing.

Most countries are quite keen for foreign money to come into their economy.

But the point is that so many western retirees cannot pay their way beyond basic subsistence, especially when health care is taken into account. That's why this thread was started.

 

Re your comment on "refugees". I would categorise a large proportion of western retirees here as economic refugees, but believe me their plight is nothing compared to the refugees from the numerous western inspired wars and economic catastrophes of the last few deacdes.

Edited November 11, 2021 by blackprince

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, blackprince said:

I'm not sure why you think the Thai government should go out of its way to offer incentives. The extension of stay requirements are already less onerous than many other retirement destinations. The fact that so many people do chose to retire here shows that incentives are surely not necessary.

 

Cambodia wants you to be over age 55 and have $300 to buy the 1 year VISA.

Philippines will let you turn up and stay for 3 years on bi-monthly extensions of around $50.

No need to ever see an immigration officer in either of those countries.

(COVID allowing)

 

It'd be interesting to hear what countries you think are harder retirement destinations than Thailand? I certainly can't think of any. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by BritManToo

[HashBrownHarry]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Cambodia wants you to be over age 55 and have $300 to buy the 1 year VISA.

Philippines will let you turn up and stay for 3 years on bi-monthly extensions of around $50.

No need to ever see an immigration officer in either of those countries.

(COVID allowing)

 

It'd be interesting to hear what countries you think are harder retirement destinations than Thailand? I certainly can't think of any. 

Cambodia and PH are light years behind Thailand.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, NanaSomchai said:

CASH IS KING, insurances are for suckers). Clear signs of financial stability.

Ah, yes the old adage that CASH IS KING, well, actually, I would take that to say until you have no more, hence the reason people hedge their bets and take out health insurance, i.e. so that there CASH is still there, e.g. insurance is protection, some pay to reduce the risk of their CASH being reduced by 2-5 million baht or being wiped out, so CASH IS KING until you have no more.

 

1 hour ago, NanaSomchai said:

Mind you my highest bill was 135,000 baht paid CASH everything else has always been minor stuff less than 15,000 baht, but again I'm sure they'd know where to find me IF they needed to locate me.

So what happens if tomorrow you have an emergency and the procedure is going to cost you 2-3 million baht, CASH IS KING, or the Thai government says you now have to have health insurance in the sum of 2 million baht in your Thai savings account each and every time you renew your extension, you being in the blue book and all.

 

The above said what about once you turn 60 and your chances of getting insured are slim, that and no doubt you would, it appears from your numerous visits would have pre-existing conditions.

 

Ah, yes the old saying is CASH IS KING, actually not when it comes to insuring yourself against the unexpected, in my opinion of course where my CASH IS KING because I protect against it being reduced from an out of nowhere unexpected event, that said, recently saw two guys I know in their early 60's, one uninsured, about 750k baht from his CASH IS KING account, the other 2.6 million compliments from his insurance debit card which was topped up by his insurer, yep CASH IS KING for him still, not so much for the other chap.  

 

Each to their own as the saying goes, I insure just so I don't have to go to hospital, that is the purpose of insuring, I don't want to hold onto the annual premium amount vs paying for an emergency procedure out of my CASH IS KING account, but then again, it all boils down to how much you have in your CASH IS KING account, don't get me wrong, I would rather hang on to the outlay, but with no protection, you are left wide open in a foreign country, make of that what you will.

[blackprince]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Cambodia wants you to be over age 55 and have $300 to buy the 1 year VISA.

Philippines will let you turn up and stay for 3 years on bi-monthly extensions of around $50.

No need to ever see an immigration officer in either of those countries.

(COVID allowing)

I have never said that Thailand has the most lax control of foreigners. If you wish to relocate to Cambodia or Philippines that's up to you.

Edited November 11, 2021 by blackprince

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

If they can pay their own way, why not?

Although I doubt many could afford UK housing, I certainly can't.

I'd definitely prefer retirees with pensions to refugees with nothing.

Most countries are quite keen for foreign money to come into their economy.

Brit 100% agree with having to pay their own way. But that is why there are insurance requirements. Because many will be whiped out without insurance if they take the gamble and it does not work out. Then the Thais need to pay.

 

I hate it when stuff like this happens in the Netherlands when we need to pay for people who are uninsured from other countries. That is why there are requirements to have insurance. I feel its Thailands right to make sure that the Thai taxpayer isnt footing the bill for foreigners. 

 

I am pretty sure the UK goverment requires some kind of insurance for long time visas, i know my country does as i have have taken GF's to my country. No insurance no visa. Tourists are of course a problem as checking them all like the Thais are attempting now is almost impossible. But no country wants to pay for tourists or expats, if you come to a country your expected to pay your own costs. 

 

Also the fact that tourists and others contribute to the economy does not mean the government is happy to pay for them. 

 

Basically they are saying those who pose a risk we don't want in country. Now im sure that the Indians and Chinese tours will just slap on a insurance without too much cost for their travelers. Its just the long term older expats that have a hard time as at older age insurance is expensive. But they are also the ones most at risk of illness (age comes with problems)

 

[crazykopite]

Having been here for 16 years and in that time invested well over 20 million baht if I could sell up tomorrow and move I would the problem is in the current climate it is very difficult to do so unless I’m prepared to sell my properties at a loss so for the time being it’s a case of seeing out Covid with the hope that things will improve over the next year or two however with the current administration in charge I cannot see it happening until they are shown the exit door but I live in hope !

[BritManToo]

Just now, blackprince said:

I have never said that Thailand has the most lax control of foreigners staying here. If you wish to relocate to Cambodia or Philippines that's up to you.

But you did say Thailand is less onerous than other retirement destinations ......

And then avoided stating any 'more onerous' retirement destinations.

The uncomfortable truth is unless you're already retired in Thailand, you probably wouldn't bother coming now.

It's no longer the easy and fun destination for the older gentleman that it was.

[jippytum]

There are lots of problems agreed .

However i am allowed to stay in Thailand for a full twelve months for a fee of 1900 baht .I don't know any countries in Asia allow that .

Even Spain in Europe only allows Brits 90 days within a 180 day period .

People give the authorities here ideas when they forecast and write about huge increase in fees that are pure conjecture.

[blackprince]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

It'd be interesting to hear what countries you think are harder retirement destinations than Thailand? I certainly can't think of any. 

As  I mentioned earlier I've worked and lived in over 25 countries. Thailand has the least restrictive rules for foreign retirees of all of them.

 

But I'll give you a simple illustration - try retiring anywhere in the EU now that the UK has left it (assuming you don't have double citizenship with an EU country), or North America, Australia, New Zealand. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.

 

[wwest5829]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

Im not smug at all, it sucks but its a result of your decision to retire in a foreign country.  

 

Thing is other countries where you pay taxes for insurance they even it out. So when your young you pay too much tax and later when old you use a lot more but you paid for it when young. The moment you leave you lose those rights. Its your own choice.

 

So then all of a sudden you go to an insurer and it all costs a lot more as you go into it at a much higher age. Its just the way of the world and anyone retiring either needs money in the bank or a good insurance.

 

So what do you suggest ? for people at 80 no insurance and then let Thailand pay for them or what ? Why would Thailand pay for people who have not paid into the system. 

 

So what is your suggestion to cover health costs of older expats ? I am waiting. (pretty sure most want someone else take the hit)

First observation I would make is that there are a substantial number from western countries working middle class who cannot afford to retire in their home confíes or who can certainly be better able to have a working middle class retirement in a lower cost country. As to not having medical insurance, the “one size fits all approach” naturally catches various alternative scenarios out in the cold. Oh, I certainly do not think a host country should be picking up unpaid medical bills but … how about all incoming tourists be required to have medical insurance (similar to Schengen Visa requirement?). And a Thai government Expat medical insurance covering reasonable Thai hospital medical costs (should return a healthy balance but not be excessive). There are more things to consider, of course. Thailand does have an advantage of developing medical tourism and its elder care facilities attracting many westerners from the working middle class (many more people than the rich and famous who can afford to travel anywhere in the world.

[BritManToo]

32 minutes ago, robblok said:

Because many will be whiped out without insurance if they take the gamble and it does not work out. Then the Thais need to pay.

Nobody is forced to seek pointless and expensive hospital treatments to extend their already miserable lives for a few extra months. And as Thailand has already decided everyone has to pay 500bht extra to enter, the insurance discussion is pointless, the hospital bills are already covered for foreigners that can't pay with about 95% of the collected money in excess of the bills.

Edited November 11, 2021 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, jippytum said:

However i am allowed to stay in Thailand for a full twelve months for a fee of 1900 baht .I don't know any countries in Asia allow that .

1900bht + $20,000 in a Thai bank.

[blackprince]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The uncomfortable truth is unless you're already retired in Thailand, you probably wouldn't bother coming now.

It's no longer the easy and fun destination for the older gentleman that it was.

To be honest that's great as far as I'm concerned. Personally I think it would be a stretch to describe aged economic refugees from the west as "gentlemen",

[BritManToo]

10 minutes ago, blackprince said:

As  I mentioned earlier I've worked and lived in over 25 countries. Thailand has the least restrictive rules for foreign retirees of all of them.

 

But I'll give you a simple illustration - try retiring anywhere in the EU now that the UK has left it (assuming you don't have double citizenship with an EU country), or North America, Australia, New Zealand. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.

 

I don't see any of those countries appealing to impoverished retirees.

Those places are where the retirees are leaving.

And the viable retirement destinations are mainly in SE Asia and S. America.

Name a country in SE Asia or S America harder than Thailand for retirement?

 

PS. I'm thinking of putting you on ignore as every post you make appears more than a little troll like. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by BritManToo

[bojo]

3 minutes ago, blackprince said:

To be honest that's great as far as I'm concerned. Personally I think it would be a stretch to describe aged economic refugees from the west as "gentlemen",

You're on a mission that's for sure...............................

[robblok]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Nobody is forced to seek pointless and expensive hospital treatments to extend their already miserable lives for a few extra months. And as Thailand has already decided everyone has to pay 500bht extra to enter, the insurance discussion is pointless, the hospital bill are already covered for foreigners that can't pay with about 95% of the collected money in excess of the bills.

Strange that you change your stance all of a sudden you say people need to pay their way around. But all of a sudden you exclude those who can't (because of hospital bills) and say its already covered. Those two issues are separate.

 

You can either pay your stuff or not. Those that are wiped out can't so its a bit contradictory. 

 

Basically your saying its ok if you can't pay your way as other expats have already paid into a fund because some people can't pay their own way. That still means these people just can't pay for their own stuff.

 

I do like your first line about not extending a bad life (I am pro Euthanasie and for the right to die when you want)

[thaibook]

21 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Plenty of retirees are not 'wealthy' whatever that means. Artists, musicians, creative, bohemians and other non materialist people can live off modest incomes on simple life styles and did so here happily a long time before crooks stole the goverment and steered the country into a mire of corruption and poverty. The only financial requirements should be based on a Thai minimal income and a system of medical insurance worked out.

When since the 1932 revolution has Thailand not been ruled by a group primarily concerned with enriching themselves and when if ever has Thailand (not just Thailand) not been corrupt?  Read books about Thailand in the 17th, 18th, 19th century - there is a consistent thread of cheating and corruption.

 

With regards the original post, one way to reduce costs slightly is to come in with the visa waiver whereby you are only required to have insurance for 30 days.

 

[spidermike007]

28 minutes ago, blackprince said:

I'm not sure why you think the Thai government should go out of its way to offer incentives. The extension of stay requirements are already less onerous than many other retirement destinations. The fact that so many people do chose to retire here shows that incentives are surely not necessary.

 

As for your previous comments about Thailand mismanaging covid, just to put that into perspective, here are the comparative mortality rates per 100,000 population for the US, UK and Thailand

US 230

 

UK 213

 

Thailand 28

 

 

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

 

The entire 3rd wave could have been avoided. It was horrendously reckless policy that allowed the spread. 

[blackprince]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I don't see any of those countries appealing to impoverished retirees.

 

Ah I see you've shifted the goalposts from "retirees" tro "impoverished retirees".

 

A couple of posts back you said that these retirees could not afford to retire in their own country. I put it to you that such people are not usually best qualified to comment on the respective merits of international retirement destinations.

 

As I mentioned a few posts back, the sad truth is that many or most (ie over 50%) western retirees are here because it's cheap for them (we seem to agree about that at least), and that when the economics change they get squeezed out. The changes to insurance are an example of that. Apart from letting off steam there really isn't much more to be said on the topic.

[Nemo.]

In the end as a foreigner there are no rights. Thailand is a sovereign country and if doesnt want retirees tough.

 

That's always the risk of being of retiring abroad without any form of PR or getting a  passport.

[EVENKEEL]

I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield (overseas) from fed job, if this ins requirement wasn't just a money grab they would accept my insurance without setting unrealistic rules to prove it. I'll continue using agents as this is probably what IO really want us to do.

[yeahbutif]

22 hours ago, PoodThaiMaiDai said:

Thailand will always be a retirement destination.

 

I think once the world is vaccinated and the cases of covid amongst the locals dissipates, things will almost go back to normal.

 

I have a feeling they may keep some sort of insurance requirement as it really saves their butt so they don't have to worry about medical free loaders.

 

There are a lot of expats that really cannot afford to be here.  So I think they want to prevent these types of people from moving here.  That is why they have the 800,000 requirement.

 

The recently announced they are looking into a 10-year visa for expats LINK..

 

This shows they are still trying to make Thailand attractive to expats.

 

So if they want the 800.000 thing to stop people who can't afford to be here... ..why is there so many agents getting visa with out it ? Even agents in the immigration officer's.

[blackprince]

Just now, spidermike007 said:

The entire 3rd wave could have been avoided. It was horrendously reckless policy that allowed the spread. 

Thailand's "entire 3rd wave" is still insignificant to what's happening in the US and the UK, as Johns Hopkins stats will confirm - that's the point.

 

It's also worth pointing out that you have been most vocal in opposing the imposition of lockdowns (comparatively mild though they have been in Thailand), yet lockdowns have demonstrated the simplest way to halt the spread. So you do seem to be contradicting yourself on this.

 

Your preferred approach seems to have been (1) open everything up (2) masks are ineffective. Such an approach would have been catastrophic.

 

Given the hogging of western vaccines by the west, and its failure to honour its earlier vaccine distribution promises beyond a bare minimum (apart from AZ of coiurse), Thailand has done reasonably well in the vaccine rollout, even if much of that was the comparatively ineffective sinopharm/sinovac. (By the way my two doses were Pfizer, so many thanks to the US Govt and the Thai administration for that).

 

You obviously have a lot of sour graps about Thailand, and I'm sure you're not alone. But if you do chose to settle in Mexico as you've said, I wish you well. Well I wish you well anyway ????

[kennw]

22 hours ago, robblok said:

It certainly will become more expensive, but only for those who had no insurance in the first place.

 

For those of us that factored it in their retirement it wont matter much. I seriously don't understand why people would want to live here without insurance (unless high savings but then they would not complain about the insurance as they have money or could deposit it maybe)

 

 

Most Thai insurance companies now have an age limit above which they will not sell you health insurance. Those that do are in the region of US$12,000 per year. Many have adequate funds to self insure, But then you cant travel because you cannot buy the US$50,000 Thai Pass cover The insurance companies will not sell it to you because you live here.  

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, yeahbutif said:

So if they want the 800.000 thing to stop people who can't afford to be here... ..why is there so many agents getting visa with out it ? Even agents in the immigration officer's.

Corruption....

[soalbundy]

22 hours ago, AhFarangJa said:

like me, you are obviously not a multi-multi millionaire, so they do not want us here. the only imagination this corrupt pile of buffoons' has is the imagination of living their lives in opulence while the plebs slave away. Like yourself, I made this Country my retirement home with my Family. All I can do now is make the best of a bad job, but always have the option to move to a nearby country if things get seriously out of control.

I did my retirement extension yesterday, all very easy. I arrived just before opening time, handed in my documents and had to wait outside the office (covid). All the necessary forms were filled out by the staff and brought out for me to sign, after 1 hour it was done and dusted.

[ChrisKC]

I think it is not a consensus on this forum that "Thailand" doesn't want retirees but there are quite few who believe that.

 

What does "Thailand" mean in this context?

 

Is it the present Government or would it be similar by any kind of Government?

 

is it the business community?

 

Is it the Thai people - what do THEY really think?

 

if it is Government and other Institutions that don't want retirees then it would be easy for them to make it happen: existing retirees can continue to stay but no more after 2022 (for example)

 

Covid circumstances over the last 18 months have to some extent exacerbated irritations into real problems and so many people's perception might have been clouded for what was the status quo of Thailand being the "Pleasant Land"

 

I am not of the opinion that "we" are not wanted!

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by ChrisKC
typo

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, ChrisKC said:

I think it is not a consensus on this forum that "Thailand" doesn't want retirees but there are quite few who believe that.

 

What does "Thailand" mean in this context? Is it the present Government or would it be similar by any kind of Government?

 

is it the business community?

 

Is it the Thai people - what do THEY really think?

 

if it is Government and other Institutions that don't want retirees then it would be easy for them to make it happen: existing retirees can continue to stay but no more after 2022 (for example)

 

Covid circumstances over the last 18 months have to some extent exacerbated irritations into real problems and so many people's perception might have been clouded for the what was the status quo of Thailand being the "Pleasant Land"

 

I am not of the opinion that "we" are not wanted!

 

 

Good point.  IMHO, it's the hiso's that don't want us here.  Only our money.  Most of the average Thais are OK with us, and many make good money off us.  A lot of Thai guys aren't happy with us as we're marrying a lot of the gals!

 

No easy answers. 

[EVENKEEL]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Good point.  IMHO, it's the hiso's that don't want us here.  Only our money.  Most of the average Thais are OK with us, and many make good money off us.  A lot of Thai guys aren't happy with us as we're marrying a lot of the gals!

 

No easy answers. 

I see the ladies with the foreigners, I doubt the Thai guys are too jealous.  ????