Is this the end of Thailand as a Retirement Destination

[Jeffr2]

7 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

A friend of mine who lived here for longer than me - about 25 years, I think - went back to his country, Canada, as soon as the health insurance requirements were announced for O-A visa holders. He didn't even have an O-A, but could see what was coming and at 83 he couldn't afford the insurance premium. Now he's settled in Vancouver, free health care.

I'm from the US and thinking about this seriously as I approach the age where I can get medicare.  Mexico is an option as it's closer.  Not sure I want to be in the US right now. LOL

[blackprince]

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Thanks. Shutdowns may work, but not highly selective shutdowns like we have seen. While Prayuth may not be responsible for Covid, he and Anutin made many poor moves which allowed the spread.

I'm sure we agree about that. But my point is that overall the covid success rate in Thailand remains much better than in all our western home countries, It would be a long essay to go into all the reasons for that, but the stats from reliable sources like Johns Hopkins speak for themselves.

 

But I will give one specific example (of many possible ones) where Thailand's performance has been infinitely better than my native UK's - tracing covid contacts. This was done extremely effectively in Thailand and at almost zero cost via the existing local government and village administrative infrastructure. In the UK it was done very badly at the cost of literally billions (GBP) much of which went into the pockets of friends of politicians via contracts that bypassed the standard tendering process.

 

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, blackprince said:

I'm sure we agree about that. But my point is that overall the covid success rate in Thailand remains much better than in all our western home countries, It would be a long essay to go into all the reasons for that, but the stats from reliable sources like Johns Hopkins speak for themselves.

 

But I will give one specific example (of many possible ones) where Thailand's performance has been infinitely better than my native UK's - tracing covid contacts. This was done extremely effectively in Thailand and at almost zero cost via the existing local government and village administrative infrastructure. In the UK it was done very badly at the cost of literally billions (GBP) much of which went into the pockets of friends of politicians via contracts that bypassed the standard tendering process.

 

Interesting to look at this.  Seems the UK hasn't done the worst.  Of course these numbers are off as most countries have admitted under counts, and many don't report at all.

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

 

[goldmagpie]

16 hours ago, chilly07 said:

So now it's gone up from 800k to 1.2 m and now 2m. Are you all volunteering to bankrupt yourselves or redirect all your retirement extensions to agents?

The first two numbers are from a youtube video by Integrity Legal Thailand. There was a page on the Los Angeles consulate with 1.2m Baht in the bank or 100k every month for O-A visa. The page appears to then have been taken down again, because he showed a Google cached page as documentation that it had been there.

 

He didn't know why that page had been live. It would all be speculation.

 

On the other hand, the 100k $ Covid insurance requirement has been on O-A visa pages on several embassy websites way before it hit the news.

[blackprince]

26 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Interesting to look at this.  Seems the UK hasn't done the worst.  Of course these numbers are off as most countries have admitted under counts, and many don't report at all.

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

 

It's the very link I posted yesterday Jeff ????

 

That particular set of stats is cumulative - ie it's the total count from the beginning of the pandemic. At one point in the history of that particular set of stats the UK was the 3rd worst in the world (covid deaths per 100,000) and slowly got better as the vaccination rollout progressed (the vaccine rollout has been the only bright spot in the UK's bungled dealing with covid).

 

But the stats on new cases show that the UK is getting worse again, and is again much worse than Thailand even during Thailand's 3rd wave, as is the USA.

 

This is largely due to the complaceny following the vaccination programme - ie many people no longer bother with masks or distancing, with some experts predicting a shortage of hospital beds and ICU beds at Christmas as a consequence.

 

It's several decades since I left the UK, and I have no intention of returning, so I can't really explain why I continue to take an interest in the place apart from it being some point of reference that I know in detail. That and the sheer horror of watching it descend into chaos and corruption i guess!!

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by blackprince

[Kwasaki]

12 hours ago, natway09 said:

I would have thought that retiring to Thailand part of the planning would have been 

your healthcare needs.

Why should a healthcare system in a foreign country have to take care of you just because you chose Thailand (who struggle to take care of their own) to want to live here on a shoestring budget in particular in your twilight years when more susceptable to illnesses & accidents.

The reasoning "I will go home for treatment if anything happens" just does not cut the mustard, 

ie> hit by a motorbike & be in traction for 12 weeks or have a massive heart attack or stroke,

you can't "go home"

Any of the above you could kiss goodbye to 3 million Bht so if you have not done your planning nor

have that kind of money available & accessable in Thailand the Thai Government has to do it for you.

This is not a "Nanny State"

Sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts

That's why anyone reading your post has to take care if you cannot get health insurance and have regular check ups.

[RafPinto]

19 hours ago, Orinoco said:

#MeToo

Are you also one of them?

 

https://metoomvmt.org/

[RafPinto]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Interesting to look at this.  Seems the UK hasn't done the worst.  Of course these numbers are off as most countries have admitted under counts, and many don't report at all.

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

 

Have a look at Germ-any. Yesterday over 50k new infections. All-time high.

[biggles45]

' so they don't have to worry about medical free loaders' 

 

When you charge every foreigner 3X plus what a Thai pays, the idea that the hospitals lose money is ridiculous. Illegals from Laos or myanmar dont pay their bills but they wont buy insurance either

 

Any 10 year visa they introduce will be just like the Elite:- renewable every year and have 90 day reporting with no guarantee of Residency. Oh, and cost a lot! 

[Happy Howard]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:20 PM, robblok said:

I don't really care how much someone spends, but having no insurance that is a problem. (unless a big amount of savings)

 

The reason we are now have to come up with proof of insurance is because people have not been able to pay bills or did runners. You see it pop up in Thaivisa a lot. 

 

I think its because in a lot of countries in Europe there is insurance because you pay taxes. So they are not used to paying for medical insurance and then when they start is a lot of money. A lot of people from the UK also seem to think its easy to fly back when something happens and they can be treated home so no need of insurance. Unfortunately it does not always work that way.

 

Thing is by people skipping out and breaking these rules we all suffer. Because now everyone has to prove insurance. You can thank those who skipped on bills for that. 

Talking about not paying, we had a bad experience paying the annual premium to the broker who arranged the original policy , as we had fit a number of years. The problem this year was the broker didn't forward the money to the insurance company!!

my wife kept asking for a receipt & then rang the company which high lighted the fraud by the broker!

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, BusyB said:

Uncertainty and impermanence are basic buddhist tenets ;D

 

 

 

 

 

It is not really fair to say so. What percent of Aussies or Americans could be described as faithful and devout Christians, who reflect the teachings of Christ? Same applies here. 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Happy Howard said:

Talking about not paying, we had a bad experience paying the annual premium to the broker who arranged the original policy , as we had fit a number of years. The problem this year was the broker didn't forward the money to the insurance company!!

my wife kept asking for a receipt & then rang the company which high lighted the fraud by the broker!

Yea but those problems are not limited to just insurance brokers.  I pay ACS directly so no broker. The broker only sends me invoices.

[Jenkins9039]

I once knew a guy, Peter was his name... 

I was ex Royal Navy, and ex South African Navy (marine?) was tasked with going after some coup leaders in the bush back in the day.

 

Anyway i digress, he had lived in Thailand for 20 yrs by the time i met him.

 

When he died (early covid period), his body wasn't found until a week after when he was stewing in his own juices, and his funeral consisted of nothing more than a good bonfire from what i was informed.

 

No one visited, no one said anything, this was a very well liked person.

 

What makes you want to stay long-term in a foreign country presumably without family, and have a similar outcome, perhaps different, I'd imagine at 70 best to head home spend time with friends, family, have a few holidays a year, perhaps the odd-cruise, etc...

 

But wanting to jump through hoops like a 20yr old again? at that age?

[BusyB]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

It is not really fair to say so. What percent of Aussies or Americans could be described as faithful and devout Christians, who reflect the teachings of Christ? Same applies here. 

I thought the tongue stretching my left cheek to its limits was obvious enough ;D

But it's often hard to see on these threads ...

Edited November 12, 2021 by BusyB

[joloit]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:09 PM, The Hammer2021 said:

Plenty of retirees are not 'wealthy' whatever that means. Artists, musicians, creative, bohemians and other non materialist people can live off modest incomes on simple life styles and did so here happily a long time before crooks stole the goverment and steered the country into a mire of corruption and poverty. The only financial requirements should be based on a Thai minimal income and a system of medical insurance worked out.

One must not forget, that retirees with small pensions also contribute their fair share into Thai society. They may not stay in expensive condos, hotels etc., but paying rent for a small room in a family run business and therefore helping people that are truly in need of a little income.  

[SAFETY FIRST]

Is this the end of Thailand as a Retirement Destination

 

What sort of strange mind thinks of these titles. 

 

You are just encouraging the miserable, nasty replies. 

 

There's no better place on earth to retire 

 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Is this the end of Thailand as a Retirement Destination

 

What sort of strange mind thinks of these titles. 

 

You are just encouraging the miserable, nasty replies. 

 

There's no better place on earth to retire 

 

Yes.

It's the best of all possible worlds.

Critical thinking is the hobgoblin of the ladies who brunch Satanist cabal.

[atpeace]

22 hours ago, natway09 said:

I would have thought that retiring to Thailand part of the planning would have been 

your healthcare needs.

Why should a healthcare system in a foreign country have to take care of you just because you chose Thailand (who struggle to take care of their own) to want to live here on a shoestring budget in particular in your twilight years when more susceptable to illnesses & accidents.

The reasoning "I will go home for treatment if anything happens" just does not cut the mustard, 

ie> hit by a motorbike & be in traction for 12 weeks or have a massive heart attack or stroke,

you can't "go home"

Any of the above you could kiss goodbye to 3 million Bht so if you have not done your planning nor

have that kind of money available & accessable in Thailand the Thai Government has to do it for you.

This is not a "Nanny State"

Sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts

 It would be extremely rare the hospital bills for the things you mentioned, would be close to 3 mil and probably in the range of 200k-1 mil at public hospitals where they would be staying in most cases.  If they are taken to private hospitals then those hospital bear the risk.  In many cases they profit immensely from tourists. Hmm, well maybe not all the risk but they are private.

 

Sadly, I have some experience of long stays in public hospitals.  It was where the ambulance took me and in most cases, the closest hospital.  I had insurance which put me at ease. The  costs were nowhere close to 3 million and one time I spent 3 weeks in ICU.  

 

Regardless, it is a cost that comes with tourism.  Tourists get in accidents and can't pay their bills just as non-tourists sometimes can't.  I was surprised how little the total unpaid bills amounted to.  Think it was 700 million baht?  Really not a big concern considering tourism revenue.  I wonder what a country like France loses on unpaid tourist  bills?

 

Thailand is no different than other countries.  Some tourists just can't afford insurance or underestimate the risk of not having it.  If each country required country specific insurance, travel would be much more tedious.  Thailand is experimenting with doing it now and don't think it will be a successful initiative.

[atpeace]

5 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

I once knew a guy, Peter was his name... 

I was ex Royal Navy, and ex South African Navy (marine?) was tasked with going after some coup leaders in the bush back in the day.

 

Anyway i digress, he had lived in Thailand for 20 yrs by the time i met him.

 

When he died (early covid period), his body wasn't found until a week after when he was stewing in his own juices, and his funeral consisted of nothing more than a good bonfire from what i was informed.

 

No one visited, no one said anything, this was a very well liked person.

 

What makes you want to stay long-term in a foreign country presumably without family, and have a similar outcome, perhaps different, I'd imagine at 70 best to head home spend time with friends, family, have a few holidays a year, perhaps the odd-cruise, etc...

 

But wanting to jump through hoops like a 20yr old again? at that age?

He was well liked and died well liked.  Sounds like a wonderful story.  When I die the funeral is of no concern and a quick bonfire would suffice.  RIP Peter.

[CartagenaWarlock]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:40 PM, Robin said:

Will the current entry requirements for Thailand spell the end of the country as a retirement destination.?

When i retired here I intended to spend some time each year in my home country, (UK)  and have done for many years.

Last year I had to visit UK for some personal business and was caught there waiting for Thailand to open up again.  Finally I gave up and paid for a CoE and all the insurance and quarantine.  Something like $2000 on top of the flight back.

So far, this year, there has been no relaxation of entry requirements.  Even the 'new' Thailand Pass is ridiculously restrictive, and checking the price of the insurance required, I cannot find anywhere under $2700. ( 1year for a 77yr old.)

So effectively, if you want to retire to Thailand and still travel during the time here, the cost of a Retirement visa has increased by 90,000baht, and now I see rumours that the RV is going to need 2,000,000 in the Bank.

How many ''retirees' will be able to afford this sort o cost? 

Suddenly Thailand is no longer the cheap retirement destination is was.  Is this another misguided Government ploy to get more of the mythical 'high net worth' visitors.

Will all these extra costs bring more money to Thailand, and particularly the general Thai population?

I really need to visit UK again this year, but i am holding off, in the hope that there will be a change of policy to something more sensible, but begin to wonder if the current lot in charge have the imagination to think of anything.

Everyone, including self-insured should have a high deductible insurance in my opinion. If you get insured before reaching 70, you can continue up to 99 years old. 

 

[Kwasaki]

8 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Everyone, including self-insured should have a high deductible insurance in my opinion. If you get insured before reaching 70, you can continue up to 99 years old. 

 

I remember being told that as well but was still dumped at 72 because of a change of policy. 

 

Be careful out there all those years of payments gone I just take care and have regular check ups.

[Jeffr2]

8 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Everyone, including self-insured should have a high deductible insurance in my opinion. If you get insured before reaching 70, you can continue up to 99 years old. 

 

I know many who've been dumped right around 70 even though they've had the same insurance for decades.

[mruniverse]

On 11/10/2021 at 11:40 AM, Robin said:

Will the current entry requirements for Thailand spell the end of the country as a retirement destination.?

Certainly hope so.  Would be great to not have to listen to retirees on ThaiVisa complaining about exchange rates and the price of Heineken.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/11/2021 at 2:08 PM, NanaSomchai said:

My experience with Thai hospitals has been extremely great overall; mind you I actually dealt with only one hospital; the Bangkok Hospital of Pattaya on Sukhumvit Road when you head North outta town so I have no idea how it's like everywhere else, nationwide.

 

With that being said, I have used them 7 or 8 times, I have never had to pay upfront for anything nor being asked how would I be paying them each and every time (I always pay CASH, this is Thailand CASH IS KING, insurances are for suckers). Clear signs of financial stability.

 

With that being said as well, I think that they've always been very cool with me might have to do with the fact that;

 

- They have had my details registered in their systems since my very first visit in 2010.

 

- The first visit I produced a blue house registration book for our house (where we used a loophole as advised by Pattaya City Hall officials on how to add a foreigner name on a blue book without the need to make a yellow book, but I digress). Anyhow my point being; even though all I do is visas on arrivals back to back and abuse the <deleted> outta the extensions and visa runs back and forth to Laos, MY name is registered as a resident on a Thai blue "tabian baan" so the hospital KNOWS where to find me, should the need arise.

 

- I have never changed my official address since I've set a foot in Thailand for the very first time in 2010. Clear signs of stability.

 

TL;DR: They are not concerned that I might be a candidate to do a runner and both my Thai kids were born in that hospital as well.

 

I think what I'm trying to say here is, in Thailand just like on a lot of different places in the World; Trust is to be earned, not given.

 

Mind you my highest bill was 135,000 baht paid CASH everything else has always been minor stuff less than 15,000 baht, but again I'm sure they'd know where to find me IF they needed to locate me.

 

Pay your bills with a smile, on time, every single time and don't be a dreg. If you want to be respected, EARN RESPECT.

I'm happy for you, but you would be atypical for farangs IMO.

 

BTW, while the local officials may have respect for you, the people that make the decisions don't even know your name.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, mruniverse said:

Certainly hope so.  Would be great to not have to listen to retirees on ThaiVisa complaining about exchange rates and the price of Heineken.

Another that likes to complain about posters complaining.

Only person forcing you to read them is yourself.

Have a nice day.

[thaibeachlovers]

Changed my mind

Edited November 13, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/13/2021 at 2:02 AM, atpeace said:

Thailand is no different than other countries.  Some tourists just can't afford insurance or underestimate the risk of not having it.  If each country required country specific insurance, travel would be much more tedious.  Thailand is experimenting with doing it now and don't think it will be a successful initiative.

Perhaps if tourists can't afford to insure themselves they should not be traveling. No one has a "right" to travel, and no one should expect taxpayers in another country to pay for their mistakes.

Up to me, no foreigner would be allowed to get on the plane to LOS without travel insurance.

 

IMO travel is already tedious, and a little more isn't going to make it any more tedious.

Edited November 13, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[NanaSomchai]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

BTW, while the local officials may have respect for you, the people that make the decisions don't even know your name.

I'm well aware and I have to start "everything over again" as the shift from Pattaya to Phuket is obviously happening IMHO.

 

Sigh.

[atpeace]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps if tourists can't afford to insure themselves they should not be traveling. No one has a "right" to travel, and no one should expect taxpayers in another country to pay for their mistakes.

Up to me, no foreigner would be allowed to get on the plane to LOS without travel insurance.

 

IMO travel is already tedious, and a little more isn't going to make it any more tedious.

Perhaps but I guess I'm just a little more flexible on the issue.  I will say this; requiring travel insurance would be a nightmare to implement universally with the extremely huge difference of cost between countries. I currently have a great insurance package IMO.  165k deductible and only covers hospital costs.  Doesn't meet the current requirements or vendor list.  Now what if I did meet their needs and Cambodia had different requirements...  

 

Thailand is trying and it is extremally difficult for many expats here and quite honestly doesn't make sense.  What you end up with in many cases is 2 policies that cover the same thing which is going to be ripe with corruption on both sides of the equation.  To pull this off you would need  uncorrupt politicians in every country to have viable cost effective insurance.  Good luck with that.

 

Personal freedom is paramount to me but realize it does have its boundaries.  As for tax payers paying, we as responsible tax payers always seem to foot the bill for the irresponsible or unfortunate.  Not allowing these individuals to travel IMO solves very little other than the destination of their health issues.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by atpeace

[blackprince]

On 11/12/2021 at 5:52 AM, Jeffr2 said:

Many Russians live here permanently.  Especially a few years ago before the Ruble crashed.  But at the Ambassador, as I mentioned, all came in via tourist junkets.  Planes booked by travel agencies in Russia.  As for working class, that's what my Russian friend told me.  Wealthier ones stayed at the better hotels, the Ambassador is not a great hotel.

 

I've spent a fair amount of time in Russia and one of my best friends here is Russian.  Arrived yesterday from Moscow actually.  I really like Russia.  It's an amazing place to visit and hope to go back again soon.

 

These tourist junkets are no different from ones in other countries.  Mostly working class as wealthier tourists would take a different route.  Not bashing working class at all.  Just stating the facts.

With the greatest of respect Jeff you aren't stating facts (as per your last para), you are repeating your Russian friend's opinion (as per your first para).

 

My previous point remains -  the Russian uneducated working class wouldn't be able to afford to come here, and many/most wouldn't want to anyway. The 600 dollar cost that you infer means they must be working class would actually be beyond working class Russians. Almost all Russians that come here would be middle class in their own country, and if they speak English (which most do) then as bilinguals they would be better educated than most westerners here.

 

I have a lot of experience with Russians (and Ukrainians) from working in both countries and dating Russians for over 10 years, and speaking Russian (pretty badly).

 

PS I also have nothing against the working-class, my early back-ground is very working-class. I also have nothing against people who missed higher education, many fall through the cracks for no fault of their own or simply chose not to.

 

Peace bro.