Is this the end of Thailand as a Retirement Destination

[Peterphuket]

3 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Sadly you're right. But that does not mean I like it ????

But we don't talk of "asylum" demanders, so:

Would you like your country to welcome each retiree who meets GB's minimum income? 

My homecountry is your neighbors...

Edited November 11, 2021 by onthedarkside
profanity term and foreign language phrase removed

[atpeace]

8 hours ago, blackprince said:

What I find amusing about this kind of perspective is that it comes from the psychology of a certain type of western baby boomer who looks around the world as if its their own little playground.

 

Not that I have anything agains western baby boomers in general - I am one myself. But having worked and lived in over 25 countries at last count, I'm a bit too experienced to suffer from the naive expectations expressed by some "expats".

 

The sad truth is that most (not all) western retirees come here because it's one of the few places they can afford. They end up living close to the bone, and when the economics change they are are squeezed out.

 

 

There is some truth to this but leaves out other reasons.  I retired here at 41 and couldn't have done it the USA.   Yes I retired here because it was possible financially but more importantly it was my favorite country at the time.  Now not so sure it is the best option. 

 

It is their country and can respect their drive to improve.  Many here think they are buffoons but only because their interested are at risk. They very well may be wrong in their pursuit of wealthy tourists but doubt it will have a lasting affect on tourism if they fail.  Nothing is final in Thailand and Thailand seems to roll through tourism challenges  better than most countries.

 

What I here often on  TV, Ironically, is that Thailand is chasing the low spending tourists from China and Russia.  There spending together dwarfs any other two counties but what does reality have to do with anything.  A few bad years or even  decade might be what Thailand needs.  Tourism prior to Covid was over the top insane.

[daejung]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:40 AM, Robin said:

Will all these extra costs bring more money to Thailand, and particularly the general Thai population?

"general thai" or "thai generals" ? 555

[Jeffr2]

58 minutes ago, atpeace said:

There is some truth to this but leaves out other reasons.  I retired here at 41 and couldn't have done it the USA.   Yes I retired here because it was possible financially but more importantly it was my favorite country at the time.  Now not so sure it is the best option. 

 

It is their country and can respect their drive to improve.  Many here think they are buffoons but only because their interested are at risk. They very well may be wrong in their pursuit of wealthy tourists but doubt it will have a lasting affect on tourism if they fail.  Nothing is final in Thailand and Thailand seems to roll through tourism challenges  better than most countries.

 

What I here often on  TV, Ironically, is that Thailand is chasing the low spending tourists from China and Russia.  There spending together dwarfs any other two counties but what does reality have to do with anything.  A few bad years or even  decade might be what Thailand needs.  Tourism prior to Covid was over the top insane.

Well put! I've been here off and on for over 20 years. I've seen them pivot from country to country in search of tourism revenue. So far, they've been pretty lucky with the pivots. But it's ruined the country environmentally. And completely changed the face of tourism.

[blackprince]

51 minutes ago, atpeace said:

There is some truth to this but leaves out other reasons.  I retired here at 41 and couldn't have done it the USA.   Yes I retired here because it was possible financially but more importantly it was my favorite country at the time.  Now not so sure it is the best option. 

 

It is their country and can respect their drive to improve.  Many here think they are buffoons but only because their interested are at risk. They very well may be wrong in their pursuit of wealthy tourists but doubt it will have a lasting affect on tourism if they fail.  Nothing is final in Thailand and Thailand seems to roll through tourism challenges  better than most countries.

 

What I here often on  TV, Ironically, is that Thailand is chasing the low spending tourists from China and Russia.  There spending together dwarfs any other two counties but what does reality have to do with anything.  A few bad years or even  decade might be what Thailand needs.  Tourism prior to Covid was over the top insane.

Nice to read a balanced post.

 

And you're right about the Chinese and Russians too, and the prejudices shown towards them by many westerners here.

 

I haven't been to tourist spots like Pattaya for a few years, but the Russians I saw there were with their families unlike many of the solitary westerners spending their days on barstools.

 

Something that many westerners probably don't understand is that the majority of international Russian travellers are educated middle class. The Russian working class would not have the means of getting here.

 

The thing that does surprise me a little about your post is retiring at 41. I've been working legally since I've been here (not as a teacher) and I think I'd go a bit crazy if I was retired. But then we're all a bit different, so each to their own.

 

The covid hit to tourism has of course been disastrous for many extended families who depend on the "informal economy" floating out of Pattaya etc. But like everywhere else in the world covid has revealed the fissures in society, not least of all in my native UK.

 

Personally, I'm a big fan of "building back better" but that's definitely not happening in the UK, which is currently drowning in government sleaze and corruption unparallelled in living memory.

[blackprince]

2 minutes ago, blackprince said:

A double click, not sure how that happened!

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by blackprince

[Jeffr2]

13 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Nice to read a balanced post.

 

And you're right about the Chinese and Russians too, and the prejudices shown towards them by many westerners here.

 

I haven't been to tourist spots like Pattaya for a few years, but the Russians I saw there were with their families unlike many of the solitary westerners spending their days on barstools.

 

Something that many westerners probably don't understand is that the majority of international Russian travellers are educated middle class. The Russian working class would not have the means of getting here.

 

The thing that does surprise me a little about your post is retiring at 41. I've been working legally since I've been here (not as a teacher) and I think I'd go a bit crazy if I was retired. But then we're all a bit different, so each to their own.

 

The covid hit to tourism has of course been disastrous for many extended families who depend on the "informal economy" floating out of Pattaya etc. But like everywhere else in the world covid has revealed the fissures in society, not least of all in my native UK.

 

Personally, I'm a big fan of "building back better" but that's definitely not happening in the UK, which is currently drowning in government sleaze and corruption unparallelled in living memory.

I live near the Ambassador hotel south of Pattaya. It's one of the 10 latest hotels in the world. And a few years ago was packed with working class Russians. Junkets offering a 6 day 5 night package for some $600. Mostly from Siberia.

[blackprince]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I live near the Ambassador hotel south of Pattaya. It's one of the 10 latest hotels in the world. And a few years ago was packed with working class Russians. Junkets offering a 6 day 5 night package for some $600. Mostly from Siberia.

They may be the exception that proves the rule. But how do you know they were uneducated working class?

 

I'm certain you don't speak Russian, so if you communicated with them it must have been in English, which would indicate they were substantially more educated than most westerners.

 

Any clarification would be welcome.

Edited November 11, 2021 by blackprince

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, blackprince said:

They may be the exception that proves the rule. But how do you know they were uneducated working class?

 

I'm certain you don't speak Russian, so if you communicated with them it must have been in English, which would indicate they were substantially more educated than most westerners.

 

Any clarification would be welcome.

I walked by the hotel almost daily for years. Saw them on the beach, in restaurants, etc. And this is what I was told by my Russian friend from Siberia. He explained this to me.

[blackprince]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I walked by the hotel almost daily for years. Saw them on the beach, in restaurants, etc. And this is what I was told by my Russian friend from Siberia. He explained this to me.

Oh I thought they were visiting tourists, not in residence for years!  And I'm really not sure how seeing them on beaches or in restaurants leads you to the conclusion that they were uneducated working class.

 

Russian social norms are not the same as in the US or UK anyway, and can easily be misunderstood by westerners who have no experience of living or working in Russia. And people behave differently on holiday as we know from the many western kings-for-a-day that come here.

 

In your first post on this you seemed to infer that they must be working class because their deal cost $600 (I guess your knowledgeable friend told you that too), but if you had knowledge of pay in Russia in general and Siberia in particular then perhaps you would revise your opinion about what $600 is in Russia.

 

On the other hand I'm sure these people were not members of the Russian rich that bought up quite a few of the premium sea-view condos around Jomtien etc

 

 

[natway09]

I would have thought that retiring to Thailand part of the planning would have been 

your healthcare needs.

Why should a healthcare system in a foreign country have to take care of you just because you chose Thailand (who struggle to take care of their own) to want to live here on a shoestring budget in particular in your twilight years when more susceptable to illnesses & accidents.

The reasoning "I will go home for treatment if anything happens" just does not cut the mustard, 

ie> hit by a motorbike & be in traction for 12 weeks or have a massive heart attack or stroke,

you can't "go home"

Any of the above you could kiss goodbye to 3 million Bht so if you have not done your planning nor

have that kind of money available & accessable in Thailand the Thai Government has to do it for you.

This is not a "Nanny State"

Sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts

[ed strong]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:20 AM, robblok said:

I don't really care how much someone spends, but having no insurance that is a problem. (unless a big amount of savings)

 

The reason we are now have to come up with proof of insurance is because people have not been able to pay bills or did runners. You see it pop up in Thaivisa a lot. 

 

I think its because in a lot of countries in Europe there is insurance because you pay taxes. So they are not used to paying for medical insurance and then when they start is a lot of money. A lot of people from the UK also seem to think its easy to fly back when something happens and they can be treated home so no need of insurance. Unfortunately it does not always work that way.

 

Thing is by people skipping out and breaking these rules we all suffer. Because now everyone has to prove insurance. You can thank those who skipped on bills for that. 

Insurance is not going to stop someone retiring to Thailand, most people in fact almost all of the retired people will have Insurance.

 

Considering all the other issues that are going on in Thailand, insurance is hardly a deal breaker, when you are considering somewhere to spend the rest of your life.

 

Do you work as an agent for insurance or something......whats with the 'its all the people who skip payments that make it worse for the rest of us decent ones'. Give me a break please.

 

 

 

 

[Maha Sarakham]

12 minutes ago, ed strong said:

Insurance is not going to stop someone retiring to Thailand, most people in fact almost all of the retired people will have Insurance.

 

Considering all the other issues that are going on in Thailand, insurance is hardly a deal breaker, when you are considering somewhere to spend the rest of your life.

It's all dependent upon age and health history. While it may be more affordable when you're younger, it gets much more expensive 70+

[JetsetBkk]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:29 PM, hotandsticky said:

I don't agree that current health insurance requirements are due to 'absconders'.

Try getting into a hospital with out first paying or having your credit card swiped...............................

As I posted in another thread, I had to get a taxi to a bank to withdraw enough cash to pay for the kidney stone operation. My pickup was at my house because an ambulance took me to the hospital, so I had to get a taxi. I had showed the hospital my bank book - which had plenty of cash in it - to prove that I could pay, but they wanted the cash.

 

I wonder how these "absconders" manage to get away with it.

 

[JetsetBkk]

On 11/10/2021 at 3:58 PM, simon43 said:

Update:  I should add that IMHO, Thailand is getting too expensive.  In TRNC, I'm looking at a new, 3-bedroom detached house with private swimming pool and sea views for 12,000 baht rent per month...

Blimey! Mind if I join you? 

[rickudon]

These 'absconders' do not actually run up a massive hospital bill overall - when it was first brought up 2 or 3 years ago the total worked out as less than 30 baht per 'tourist' (i.e. airport passenger). I understand the government was adding another 100 baht levy to a passenger ticket soon anyway. 

 

Medical costs - not many can afford private health insurance premiums when you get older anyway. Have one friend who is 84, with a few health problems - couldn't get insurance if he tried. He does have money though. Another is 74, used to have BUPA, but after a couple of hospital stays in his late 60's they doubled his premium when he got to 70 - couldn't afford it anymore. 

 

Like has been suggested, if the government offered a reasonable rate for access to the Thai state health system (at least for those on extensions) i think the take up rate would be fair. Even when i was under 60 and i tried to get health insurance here 10 years ago they wanted 25% of my pension. Just gouging. My total Thai health costs in 10 years have been about 1500 baht...... It will go up, but at least i have some money in the bank now.

[JetsetBkk]

14 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

14 hours ago, jesimps said:

"There are a lot of expats that really cannot afford to be here."

 

Name them. You missed "In my opinion" at the start of that sentence. Too many smug types on here, with more money than sense making that assumption. Maybe you should have said "Too many tourists with no insurance who can't afford to have accidents here".

I know a few that aren't doing well financially.  Exchange rates, poor investments, medical bills...forced quite a few I know back to their home country.  Where they get financial and medical help.

A friend of mine who lived here for longer than me - about 25 years, I think - went back to his country, Canada, as soon as the health insurance requirements were announced for O-A visa holders. He didn't even have an O-A, but could see what was coming and at 83 he couldn't afford the insurance premium. Now he's settled in Vancouver, free health care.

[fredscats]

3 hours ago, blackprince said:

They may be the exception that proves the rule. But how do you know they were uneducated working class?

 

I'm certain you don't speak Russian, so if you communicated with them it must have been in English, which would indicate they were substantially more educated than most westerners.

 

Any clarification would be welcome.

They got hit (and killed) on the Suk highway outside the Ambassador hotel a lot more than other nationalities

[JetsetBkk]

14 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

when applying for their extensions to satisfy immigration that they have the amount to cover a hospital emergency, e.g. 1 million or 2 million baht on top of the 800,000 baht for the extension.

Good idea. I would be happy with that.

 

13 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

The insurance issue is causing consternation due to age and pre-existing conditions. of course TIT and there are possible "work arounds". Currently, paying 11,400 baht for useless insurance to meet the requirement. 

Same here - the 200,000 baht deductible keeps the premium low! ???? 

[ChC1]

Have you not smelt the coffee during last 5 years?

 

Thai government has always showed their preference to their Chinese brothers. So they kept saying they want Quality rather than Quantity, hence the tourism industry change to chasing quality tourists. What they really mean is for anything but Chinese they want Quality. For Chinese tourists they want the Quantity and don't care about Quality. 

 

Thailand was developed thanks to the Quantity of western tourists. But now they want to transform into a Quality destination by clear out the less desired poor chaps like you and me. In the same time they lined up millions of Chinese to mark up the lost Quantity. It is very evident during last 5 years, especially since 2018/2019, if you care to read news from TAT.

 

So to your question,  no, Thailand is likely remain to be a wonderful retirement destination for others (aka, not us), those desired by Thai Elite. 

[JustAnotherHun]

26 minutes ago, ChC1 said:

But now they want to transform into a Quality destination by clear out the less desired poor chaps like you and me.

You're comparing Chinese tourists with western longstayers/retirees. I don't think the requirements for Chinese retirees would be different to ours, if there were elderly Chinese wanting to stay long time.

 

But you're right if you say they don't want long stayers with lower incomes.

Very sad for those who were here for decades and now feel they're not welcome anymore. But this is Thailand. Everybody should know nothings sure here.

 

Quote

Thailand is likely remain to be a wonderful retirement destination for others (aka, not us), those desired by Thai Elite. 

Or those 50+ with O-extensions or OX visa who are willing to store the required amount in a Thai bank

Edited November 11, 2021 by JustAnotherHun

[spidermike007]

13 hours ago, blackprince said:

Thailand's "entire 3rd wave" is still insignificant to what's happening in the US and the UK, as Johns Hopkins stats will confirm - that's the point.

 

It's also worth pointing out that you have been most vocal in opposing the imposition of lockdowns (comparatively mild though they have been in Thailand), yet lockdowns have demonstrated the simplest way to halt the spread. So you do seem to be contradicting yourself on this.

 

Your preferred approach seems to have been (1) open everything up (2) masks are ineffective. Such an approach would have been catastrophic.

 

Given the hogging of western vaccines by the west, and its failure to honour its earlier vaccine distribution promises beyond a bare minimum (apart from AZ of coiurse), Thailand has done reasonably well in the vaccine rollout, even if much of that was the comparatively ineffective sinopharm/sinovac. (By the way my two doses were Pfizer, so many thanks to the US Govt and the Thai administration for that).

 

You obviously have a lot of sour graps about Thailand, and I'm sure you're not alone. But if you do chose to settle in Mexico as you've said, I wish you well. Well I wish you well anyway ????

Thanks. Shutdowns may work, but not highly selective shutdowns like we have seen. While Prayuth may not be responsible for Covid, he and Anutin made many poor moves which allowed the spread.

 

Not locking down the Samut seafood market area, within a 2km. radius, and and making sure nobody come in and out for 15 days, back in early December when they had 900 plus cases in one day, was a legendary mistake and amounted to gross malfeasance and likely blatant corruption. 

 

Not sealing off the border with Burma, with the use of the 550,000 soldiers who are supposed to protect the nation, (and likely do next to nothing daily) and allowing corrupt border officials to continue working their franchises, was another. 

 

Announcing the closure of construction sites in Bangkok, a week in advance of closing them was as bone headed as it gets. It allowed super spreaders to travel freely all over the nation, resulting in an immediate surge of nationwide cases. 

 

And the severe bungling of the vaccination program is absolutely unforgivable. You want me to go on? This is not Covid. This is Pratin 19!

 

I am not bitter towards Thailand. I love most Thai people and have had some great years there. I am just tired of the nonsense, and ready for a change. 

[HappyGoLuckyLife]

On 11/10/2021 at 1:14 AM, JustAnotherHun said:

Would you like your home country being open for each foreigner who reaches the minimal income there? If not, why should Thailand do so?

Um... we do it for folks with no money here in the US.

[Orinoco]

6 hours ago, rickudon said:

These 'absconders' do not actually run up a massive hospital bill overall - when it was first brought up 2 or 3 years ago the total worked out as less than 30 baht per 'tourist' (i.e. airport passenger). I understand the government was adding another 100 baht levy to a passenger ticket soon anyway. 

 

So true, it's all just a big money grab.

TIT.  

[BusyB]

5 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

You're comparing Chinese tourists with western longstayers/retirees. I don't think the requirements for Chinese retirees would be different to ours, if there were elderly Chinese wanting to stay long time.

 

But you're right if you say they don't want long stayers with lower incomes.

Very sad for those who were here for decades and now feel they're not welcome anymore. But this is Thailand. Everybody should know nothings sure here.

 

Or those 50+ with O-extensions or OX visa who are willing to store the required amount in a Thai bank

Uncertainty and impermanence are basic buddhist tenets ;D

 

 

 

 

 

[BusyB]

15 hours ago, ChrisKC said:

When I arrived in Thailand as a retiree in January, 2003, the people, already here for some time, tended to say,

 

"But fings 'aint what they used to be"

 

I have lived long enough to realise that it seems wherever you go, or whatever you do, it won't be, "like the good old days"

 

I have also realised that many people don't like change - and in my opinion, not every change is actually detrimental and often an improvement.

 

And my final realisation is that even when change is not to my benefit I have learned how to accept and get on with my life!

 

 

And on top of that we change with age and suddenly things don't jive the way they did, and suddenly we notice things we never did before, and and ...

Life is change, and adapting is a great strategy ... I've had a whale of a time wherever I was, except for a couple of years of self-imposed misery when I lost sight of my compass. And that was the time I blamed everyone else 555

Edited November 11, 2021 by BusyB

[KarenBravo]

18 minutes ago, BusyB said:

Uncertainty and impermanence are basic buddhist tenets ;D

 

I think the number of true Buddhists in this country that live by the teachings, is less than 10.

[BusyB]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

Brit 100% agree with having to pay their own way. But that is why there are insurance requirements. Because many will be whiped out without insurance if they take the gamble and it does not work out. Then the Thais need to pay.

 

I hate it when stuff like this happens in the Netherlands when we need to pay for people who are uninsured from other countries. That is why there are requirements to have insurance. I feel its Thailands right to make sure that the Thai taxpayer isnt footing the bill for foreigners. 

 

I am pretty sure the UK goverment requires some kind of insurance for long time visas, i know my country does as i have have taken GF's to my country. No insurance no visa. Tourists are of course a problem as checking them all like the Thais are attempting now is almost impossible. But no country wants to pay for tourists or expats, if you come to a country your expected to pay your own costs. 

 

Also the fact that tourists and others contribute to the economy does not mean the government is happy to pay for them. 

 

Basically they are saying those who pose a risk we don't want in country. Now im sure that the Indians and Chinese tours will just slap on a insurance without too much cost for their travelers. Its just the long term older expats that have a hard time as at older age insurance is expensive. But they are also the ones most at risk of illness (age comes with problems)

 

When I was lining up a visit from a Thai girlfriend to Germany I had to show health insurance for her whole stay and sign a chit saying I'd be responsible for all costs she incurred if she stepped out of line. Something like that anyway - but they wouldn't let her in without knowing someone was going to cover for her. That was about 2005.

[Jeffr2]

9 hours ago, blackprince said:

Oh I thought they were visiting tourists, not in residence for years!  And I'm really not sure how seeing them on beaches or in restaurants leads you to the conclusion that they were uneducated working class.

 

Russian social norms are not the same as in the US or UK anyway, and can easily be misunderstood by westerners who have no experience of living or working in Russia. And people behave differently on holiday as we know from the many western kings-for-a-day that come here.

 

In your first post on this you seemed to infer that they must be working class because their deal cost $600 (I guess your knowledgeable friend told you that too), but if you had knowledge of pay in Russia in general and Siberia in particular then perhaps you would revise your opinion about what $600 is in Russia.

 

On the other hand I'm sure these people were not members of the Russian rich that bought up quite a few of the premium sea-view condos around Jomtien etc

 

 

Many Russians live here permanently.  Especially a few years ago before the Ruble crashed.  But at the Ambassador, as I mentioned, all came in via tourist junkets.  Planes booked by travel agencies in Russia.  As for working class, that's what my Russian friend told me.  Wealthier ones stayed at the better hotels, the Ambassador is not a great hotel.

 

I've spent a fair amount of time in Russia and one of my best friends here is Russian.  Arrived yesterday from Moscow actually.  I really like Russia.  It's an amazing place to visit and hope to go back again soon.

 

These tourist junkets are no different from ones in other countries.  Mostly working class as wealthier tourists would take a different route.  Not bashing working class at all.  Just stating the facts.

[Jeffr2]

7 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

A friend of mine who lived here for longer than me - about 25 years, I think - went back to his country, Canada, as soon as the health insurance requirements were announced for O-A visa holders. He didn't even have an O-A, but could see what was coming and at 83 he couldn't afford the insurance premium. Now he's settled in Vancouver, free health care.

I'm from the US and thinking about this seriously as I approach the age where I can get medicare.  Mexico is an option as it's closer.  Not sure I want to be in the US right now. LOL