Covid Tales 2: 78 year old retiree recounts getting Covid in Thailand after being vaccinated

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

Singapore didn't test more intensively, it's a lie.

 

Germany is having a surge of 76,000 daily cases yesterday even though its population is 70% fully vaccinated.

 

And the corresponding hospitalizations/deaths are?

[Mac Mickmanus]

57 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I had a rather strange experience a few weeks back. We were driving to the market town from my village and the missus was browsing her iphone as usual when suddenly she said "Do you want to get the third vaccination today?" In the next village the booster injections were being done according to her phone so off we went. The set up was similar to the injections we had received in the market town, well organized with various large tents set up in a field.

 

We introduced ourselves and the missus produced the documents from our previous two injections (Sinovac and Astra) we were directed to a table where the boosters were given, there were only about 10 well dressed Thais there so we got in line, I was first before my wife who handed the two nurses our vaccine confirmation and we were handed a pink form to sign then I got the injection (Astra) as I stood up to let the wife sit down one of the nurses who was looking at the forms uttered a cry of surprise/dismay and snatched our pink forms and tore them up and told us to leave without vaccinating my wife. I asked what was wrong but the nurse only stammered something about it being wrong and it was dangerous and we were basically shooed away. The missus was just as surprised as me and looked around as we marched off. Her opinion was that those getting the boosters looked like government officials, police etc. and we had unwittingly sneaked in to the booster queue. Whatever, the booster gave me no ill effects but I now have no proof that I had received it so I will get a fourth one when we are informed by the tetsaban that we shall receive it, it is still a bit of a mystery for me.

How long ago did you get your second vaccination ?

Maybe you got the third vac too soon ?

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, Lizzy Duang said:

There is already in vitro proof of DNA repair damage through the spike protein which then could also be induced by the vaccine. If this is confirmed in vivo, some vaccines become a time bomb. So the warnings are sufficient. Recently a 25 percent increase of heart disease was predicted in a simulation. I follow those studies and take them seriously.

Please provide a link to verify these two claims:

 

In vitro evidence of DNA damage - link now please.

 

Prediction if 25% increase in heart damage - link now please.

 

You say you follow these studies so now deliver the links..

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, Lizzy Duang said:

I also don't get why some believe vaccinated won't get ventilated or die. First you are not promised a 100 percent protection. Second vaccinated people die, just look at the outcome stats under death. 

You are making a strawman argument, nobody is claiming the COVID vaccines are a 100% protection, these vaccines provide a significant reduction in risk of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID.

 

So yes do look at the stats, vaccinated people are far less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/580770-unvaccinated-20-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-19-texas-study

 

[4MyEgo]

6 hours ago, Dumbfounded said:

So, if the whole world was inoculated with a vax that does not prevent you from catching/spreading the virus you believe the virus will just die off. I may be selfish in your eyes but I'm not that stupid to believe your imagined result

If you read my post again Dumbfounded, you will note that I never said the virus would die off. I said we all have a part to play.

 

You be selfish and not getting vaccinated is your choice, some times trying to get people to take the blinkers off is harder than putting them on, this is because of poor education, stubbornness and rebelliousness. 

 

When the disease shifts from pandemic to endemic, the health outcomes will be less severe, and we’ll be better able to manage and accept the low risks associated with COVID-19.

 

It’s unclear exactly when this shift will occur. But experts agree that one day we’ll treat COVID as we do the flu — masks and distancing will no longer be needed except in some circumstances, and our best line of defence will remain vaccination, just like flu vaccinations.

 

Those that choose not to get vaccinated such as yourself prolong the world reaching the endemic stage, whether by choice or just not being able to get a vaccine, noting that the richer countries of the world are getting their 3rd doses, while many of poorer countries have not even had a vaccination as of today.

 

It really boils down to choice, if you wish to remain unvaccinated, that is your choice, just stay away from the rest of us, but at the end of the day, you will find out that society will treat you like a leper eventually, and rightfully so IMO. 

 

The link below shows what countries have had their 1st, 2nd and 3rd doses.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

 

Don't be afraid to dying, we are all going to the same place, vaccinated or not, and the way I see it, having looked at everything, vaccinations are the way to prolong ones life, mine, yours and everyone else's, so if you wish to remain unvaccinated, "up to you" as the Thai's say, that said, I know a few people who have passed from Covid, some old and some middle of the road, their choice in my opinion their lives ended early, sadly, I also know of one who is 60 and survived Covid, his exact words to me were, "I thought I was going to die, I should have taken the vaccine, all I could think of were my kids, I am getting vaccinated in 3 months, I don't want this thing again, I saw some people in the hospital younger than me die, I thought I knew better, and you were right, I should have taken the vaccine, never again", did you get yours, he asked, der !

 

As the old saying goes, you can lead them to water, but you can't force them, suffice to say, I am done trying to educate people.

 

Good luck in your choices, life's short, enjoy the time you have here, as for me, I am vaccinated and am far more relaxed than most unvaccinated who think they are.

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

How long ago did you get your second vaccination ?

Maybe you got the third vac too soon ?

 

I cant remember but probably around three weeks but whatever that doesn't account for them tearing up the pink slips (cover up perhaps). I don't think a short time period between shots is dangerous, it has more to do with the effectiveness, the first recommendations were arbitrary and later revised. There was a case in the USA of an 80 year old woman being accidentally given a vaccination  40 times the recommended dose with no ill effects. The wife's estimate of the situation was that the state employees were the privileged few that got the booster before everybody else and we had accidentally slipped into the program which might have caused trouble for the nurses if it came out.

[johnnybangkok]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

If you read my post again Dumbfounded, you will note that I never said the virus would die off. I said we all have a part to play.

 

You be selfish and not getting vaccinated is your choice, some times trying to get people to take the blinkers off is harder than putting them on, this is because of poor education, stubbornness and rebelliousness. 

 

When the disease shifts from pandemic to endemic, the health outcomes will be less severe, and we’ll be better able to manage and accept the low risks associated with COVID-19.

 

It’s unclear exactly when this shift will occur. But experts agree that one day we’ll treat COVID as we do the flu — masks and distancing will no longer be needed except in some circumstances, and our best line of defence will remain vaccination, just like flu vaccinations.

 

Those that choose not to get vaccinated such as yourself prolong the world reaching the endemic stage, whether by choice or just not being able to get a vaccine, noting that the richer countries of the world are getting their 3rd doses, while many of poorer countries have not even had a vaccination as of today.

 

It really boils down to choice, if you wish to remain unvaccinated, that is your choice, just stay away from the rest of us, but at the end of the day, you will find out that society will treat you like a leper eventually, and rightfully so IMO. 

 

The link below shows what countries have had their 1st, 2nd and 3rd doses.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

 

Don't be afraid to dying, we are all going to the same place, vaccinated or not, and the way I see it, having looked at everything, vaccinations are the way to prolong ones life, mine, yours and everyone else's, so if you wish to remain unvaccinated, "up to you" as the Thai's say, that said, I know a few people who have passed from Covid, some old and some middle of the road, their choice in my opinion their lives ended early, sadly, I also know of one who is 60 and survived Covid, his exact words to me were, "I thought I was going to die, I should have taken the vaccine, all I could think of were my kids, I am getting vaccinated in 3 months, I don't want this thing again, I saw some people in the hospital younger than me die, I thought I knew better, and you were right, I should have taken the vaccine, never again", did you get yours, he asked, der !

 

As the old saying goes, you can lead them to water, but you can't force them, suffice to say, I am done trying to educate people.

 

Good luck in your choices, life's short, enjoy the time you have here, as for me, I am vaccinated and am far more relaxed than most unvaccinated who think they are.

 

 

 

As much as I agree with all of what you are saying, I'm afraid I'm becoming much more intolerant to the anti-vaxers than your 'up to you' thoughts.

The world has been on it's knees for the last 2 years; businesses have gone to the wall and people are suffering real economic hardship (I myself had to cut 20 of my own staff) but when presented with a VERY good route out of it all, we have far too many listening to fear and rumour rather than science and fact. So my question is,  when did science become so debateable? When did so many start thinking they know better than individuals who have dedicated their lives to becoming experts in their field? We all know this has been a fluid situation and statements made a year ago have been updated according to new evidence presented but many still harp on about what Fauci said back in 2020 or what other prominent epidemiologists believed at the time. The hard truth though is there is no hidden agenda; there's no arterial motive, there's just dedicated people doing their very best to get us ahead of this disease in an attempt to get the world back to normal.

So here's the facts that I believce as of now (I'm stating these in the full knowledge that more information/different varients may change all this):-

1. ANY vaccine is better than none. Some had much better efficacy than others but even the worse is better than nothing.

2. Even if you are vaccinated, you can still catch Covid (although this is greatly diminished) and you can still trasmit it.

3. You may be very unlucky and still die/suffer from the disease after being vaccinated but the VAST majority will not suffer serious consequences and very few will die in comparison to the greater risk of Covid.

4. You again may be VERY unlucky and have a reaction to the vaccine. No vaccine is 100% safe but the chances of a serious reaction is miniscule.

5. We currently need boosters and will probably need them for many years to come. Much like flu vaccines, chances are there will be a new one coming out every year, depending on the prominent strain of Covid at the time.

 

My favourite anology recently for ant-vaxxers is they are like annoying children kicking the back of the seat whilst you are trying to drive. They distract you and very occasional try and grab the wheel to take you completely off-course whilst you are trying to get everyone to safety. They are annoying and can be dangerous so we need to keep them 'strapped in' as much as possible; so stop your whinging, stop your pseudo science, get vaccinated and start being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.   

[Paradise Pete]

20 hours ago, Lizzy Duang said:

The case fatality ratio for paralytic polio is generally 2% to 5% among children and up to 15% to 30% among adolescents and adults. It increases to 25% to 75% with bulbar involvement. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html&ved=2ahUKEwiRm9vk7rX0AhXgUWwGHSmVBygQFnoECAYQBQ&usg=AOvVaw0_0kbdPyt82llEj1WuPkg-

 

if you take a medium of 30 percent of 0.5 from your table,  death probability is not far from the low estimate of some experts for COVID (0.2 percent). And polio could be eradicated once, which is impossible for Coronavirus. Thus natural immunity seems to be the better long term strategy to me. 

If you think the covid death rate is 0.2% then I'm not going to argue further. 

[4MyEgo]

5 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

As much as I agree with all of what you are saying, I'm afraid I'm becoming much more intolerant to the anti-vaxers than your 'up to you' thoughts.

The world has been on it's knees for the last 2 years; businesses have gone to the wall and people are suffering real economic hardship (I myself had to cut 20 of my own staff) but when presented with a VERY good route out of it all, we have far too many listening to fear and rumour rather than science and fact. So my question is,  when did science become so debateable? When did so many start thinking they know better than individuals who have dedicated their lives to becoming experts in their field? We all know this has been a fluid situation and statements made a year ago have been updated according to new evidence presented but many still harp on about what Fauci said back in 2020 or what other prominent epidemiologists believed at the time. The hard truth though is there is no hidden agenda; there's no arterial motive, there's just dedicated people doing their very best to get us ahead of this disease in an attempt to get the world back to normal.

So here's the facts that I believce as of now (I'm stating these in the full knowledge that more information/different varients may change all this):-

1. ANY vaccine is better than none. Some had much better efficacy than others but even the worse is better than nothing.

2. Even if you are vaccinated, you can still catch Covid (although this is greatly diminished) and you can still trasmit it.

3. You may be very unlucky and still die/suffer from the disease after being vaccinated but the VAST majority will not suffer serious consequences and very few will die in comparison to the greater risk of Covid.

4. You again may be VERY unlucky and have a reaction to the vaccine. No vaccine is 100% safe but the chances of a serious reaction is miniscule.

5. We currently need boosters and will probably need them for many years to come. Much like flu vaccines, chances are there will be a new one coming out every year, depending on the prominent strain of Covid at the time.

 

My favourite anology recently for ant-vaxxers is they are like annoying children kicking the back of the seat whilst you are trying to drive. They distract you and very occasional try and grab the wheel to take you completely off-course whilst you are trying to get everyone to safety. They are annoying and can be dangerous so we need to keep them 'strapped in' as much as possible; so stop your whinging, stop your pseudo science, get vaccinated and start being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.   

I agree with you 99.99% the other .01% is that I do not like force of any kind regardless, suffice to say forcing people to get vaccinated is taking away their civil liberties.

 

The above said, best to restrict their movements, opportunities for employment, travel, i.e. treat them like lepers and if they still don't want to get vaccinated, then so be it, there choice as much as it is our choice to protect everyone else, like in a shopping centre, at work and on planes, trains and buses.

 

Simple really, i.e. got to work to earn, earning means you can shop and travel, but without being vaccinated, well, life will be very different for some, i.e. until they stop kicking the back of the car seat using your words.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[johnnybangkok]

14 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I agree with you 99.99% the other .01% is that I do not like force of any kind regardless, suffice to say forcing people to get vaccinated is taking away their civil liberties.

 

The above said, best to restrict their movements, opportunities for employment, travel, i.e. treat them like lepers and if they still don't want to get vaccinated, then so be it, there choice as much as it is our choice to protect everyone else, like in a shopping centre, at work and on planes, trains and buses.

 

Simple really, i.e. got to work to earn, earning means you can shop and travel, but without being vaccinated, well, life will be very different for some, i.e. until they stop kicking the back of the car seat using your words.

 

 

 

 

I wonder how concerned we would all be about civil liberties if this disease was slightly different? If for example it only affected children and to date 5.2 million children had already died or if the fatality rate was 4 times as bad meaning the death toll was nearing 20 million or it affected the healthy in the same way it currently affects the elderly or the susceptible?

To me, this was/is a dress rehearsal for a much more deadly disease (you know, the one scientists have been warning us about for years) and lets admit it, we've failed miserably. From not acting quick enough to completely diregarding pandemic proticals, to listening to everyone's precious 'but.... but.....my civil liberties', the worlds' response has varied so dramatically it's frightening.

You are of course completely correct that no one will be forced to vaccinate and our best bet is to ostracise them to the point they have no where to turn and are basically shamed into doing the right thing but we do also need to reach a consensus over when the good of society supercedes individual civil liberties with things like pandemics. There are numerous examples of when individual civil rights have taken a back seat to societal needs and everyone seems to be ok when it's during war, terrorist attacks, natural disasters and financial meltdowns but for some reason a deadly pandemic doesn't seem to quite pass muster.

Many more educated people than myself argue the good of society trumps individual rights and hearing all the nonsense coming from ant-vaxxers and seeing all the damage they are causing, I'm agreeing with them more and more.      
 

[josephbloggs]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:03 PM, MrJ2U said:

Friend in Hua Hin is on resperator.

 

Two jabs of Sinovac.

 

Next wave may be perilous with all the people vaccinated with either Chinese Vaccine.

 

Hope Anutin gets what's coming to him!

Sorry about your friend - I hope he/she recovers.   But what's to say they wouldn't be in the same situation if they had a different vaccine?  Is your friend old, does he/she have existing conditions?

You are implying your friend is in this state because of the "Chinese vaccine".  Perhaps if not for the "Chinese vaccine" they would be dead.  Sinovac was the first vaccine available and it has undoubtedly saved many many lives. But TVF geezers know better than tho WHO who have rated it as highly effective............simply because it is Chinese and not made by Western white people, it's as simple as that, just latent racism.  But you seem to hope Anutin dies for vaccinating people with a highly effective non Western vaccine.

"A real-world study of tens of millions of Chileans who received CoronaVac found it 66% effective against symptomatic COVID-19, 88% against hospitalization, 90% against ICU admissions, and 86% against deaths.^[12] In Brazil, after 75% of the population in Serrana, São Paulo, received CoronaVac, preliminary results show deaths fell by 95%, hospitalizations by 86%, and symptomatic cases by 80%.^[13][14] In Indonesia, real world data from 128,290 healthcare workers showed 94% protection against symptomatic infection by the vaccine, beating results in clinical trials.<sup>[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoronaVac

The WHO organisation on Sinovac:

We cannot compare the vaccines head-to-head due to the different approaches taken in designing the respective studies, but overall, all of the vaccines that have achieved WHO Emergency Use Listing are highly effective in preventing severe disease and hospitalization due to COVID-19.</sup>

 

AZ is by far the most widely administered vaccine in Thailand BTW.  This anti Chinese thing is just racism, and so so tiresome.

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

I wonder how concerned we would all be about civil liberties if this disease was slightly different? If for example it only affected children and to date 5.2 million children had already died or if the fatality rate was 4 times as bad meaning the death toll was nearing 20 million or it affected the healthy in the same way it currently affects the elderly or the susceptible?

To me, this was/is a dress rehearsal for a much more deadly disease (you know, the one scientists have been warning us about for years) and lets admit it, we've failed miserably. From not acting quick enough to completely diregarding pandemic proticals, to listening to everyone's precious 'but.... but.....my civil liberties', the worlds' response has varied so dramatically it's frightening.

You are of course completely correct that no one will be forced to vaccinate and our best bet is to ostracise them to the point they have no where to turn and are basically shamed into doing the right thing but we do also need to reach a consensus over when the good of society supercedes individual civil liberties with things like pandemics. There are numerous examples of when individual civil rights have taken a back seat to societal needs and everyone seems to be ok when it's during war, terrorist attacks, natural disasters and financial meltdowns but for some reason a deadly pandemic doesn't seem to quite pass muster.

Many more educated people than myself argue the good of society trumps individual rights and hearing all the nonsense coming from ant-vaxxers and seeing all the damage they are causing, I'm agreeing with them more and more.      
 

I believe in democracy and of course we are paying the price that we are living in a democracy during this pandemic, which of course we have never experienced before, that said, at the end of the day, we will never find a solution to this in a democratic society, that's what makes democracy, a democracy that gives us the right to be different, to say no, or enough is enough, to challenge, not to be dictated too.

 

Would I love for everyone to get vaccinated, sure thing, but hey, this is the price we pay for living in a democracy, and I would rather live under a "democratic society" vs "tyranny". 

 

Democratic societies work far better than than those less fortunate, that said, we cannot control what we cannot control as much as we would love to control it, regardless if the science says it's the way to go.

 

I share your frustrations.

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I believe in democracy and of course we are paying the price that we are living in a democracy during this pandemic, which of course we have never experienced before, that said, at the end of the day, we will never find a solution to this in a democratic society, that's what makes democracy, a democracy that gives us the right to be different, to say no, or enough is enough, to challenge, not to be dictated too.

 

Would I love for everyone to get vaccinated, sure thing, but hey, this is the price we pay for living in a democracy, and I would rather live under a "democratic society" vs "tyranny". 

 

Democratic societies work far better than than those less fortunate, that said, we cannot control what we cannot control as much as we would love to control it, regardless if the science says it's the way to go.

 

I share your frustrations.

But isn't democracy the will of the majority? Much in the same way we don't listen to flat earthers, why are we still suffering because of the ignorant and the uneducated? Why is Europe back to lockdowns because a minority are choosing to believe conspiracies and complete nonsense rather than science and facts? Why is their 'opinion' carrying so much weight we now have to elongate a crisis that should have finished a long time ago because the cure and the remedy has already been found? 

As the saying goes, you are welcome to your own opinion but you are not welcome to your own facts and when that 'opinion' is causing so much death, destruction and hardship,  at what point do we just say 'enough is enough' and let the will of the majority start dictating the options of the few?

I say lets get on with life and let Darwin sort out the rest.   

[4MyEgo]

27 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

But isn't democracy the will of the majority? Much in the same way we don't listen to flat earthers, why are we still suffering because of the ignorant and the uneducated? Why is Europe back to lockdowns because a minority are choosing to believe conspiracies and complete nonsense rather than science and facts? Why is their 'opinion' carrying so much weight we now have to elongate a crisis that should have finished a long time ago because the cure and the remedy has already been found? 

As the saying goes, you are welcome to your own opinion but you are not welcome to your own facts and when that 'opinion' is causing so much death, destruction and hardship,  at what point do we just say 'enough is enough' and let the will of the majority start dictating the options of the few?

I say lets get on with life and let Darwin sort out the rest.   

Let us be clear about something, put democracy and the majority rule aside, the latest mutation is from South Africa which has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the world because 1st world countries are hording vaccines, now on 3rd doses while these mutations will continue to evolve in countries with those with less vaccinations, so our disappointment in the anti-vaxes is basically over really, the ball has been dropped so to speak. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 11/25/2021 at 5:09 PM, ed strong said:

Ah yes i remember everyone getting vaccinated against polio and then we all caught polio but luckily our symptoms weren't that bad!

 

What a pathetic comparison.

What a straw man argument.

 

The comparison with polio that was being made, was that getting vaccinated against it would very probably save you from a life changing illness.

 

Which is a perfectly true and valid comparison.

Edited November 28, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[johnnybangkok]

13 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Let us be clear about something, put democracy and the majority rule aside, the latest mutation is from South Africa which has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the world because 1st world countries are hording vaccines, now on 3rd doses while these mutations will continue to evolve in countries with those with less vaccinations, so our disappointment in the anti-vaxes is basically over really, the ball has been dropped so to speak. 

My disappointment in mans stupidity will rarely be over but I get your point. However it's even more reason to force vaccinations. Viruses mutate when a more 'efficient' varient is found so when left unchecked it will just get worse and worse. Take the Spanish Flu for example, the most deadly of which stared with the 2nd wave and progressed to even worse by the the 3rd wave. This was due to lax uptakes of safety proticals and general denying that there was even a pandemic occuring and of course they didn't have the benefit of a vaccine. We do have a vaccine and yet we are still allowing people to choose whether they want to take it or not. Utter madness and more than enough reason to bypass 'individual civil liberty' for the good of the masses.

 

NB:- Agree that the western world has to do more for less well-off nations. It's for all our benefit.

[ed strong]

6 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

What a straw man argument.

 

The comparison with polio that was being made, was that getting vaccinated against it would very probably save you from a life changing illness.

 

Which is a perfectly true and valid comparison.

There has not been a case of polio in the UK in the last 30 years! Because the vaccine is a vaccine and it works.

 

However this 'vaccine' which technically is not a vaccine its a booster shot, which in some cases can increase the antibiody levels, however 1 in 3 people show no symptoms whatsoever, so you could argue that 20m people in Thailand did not need and had no advantage from taking one or 3 of these shots.

 

The only thing straw man about this is the fact that you compare an unproven and not yet regulated in some countries booster shot, to a tried and tested vaccine.

 

 

[ed strong]

8 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

My disappointment in mans stupidity will rarely be over but I get your point. However it's even more reason to force vaccinations. Viruses mutate when a more 'efficient' varient is found so when left unchecked it will just get worse and worse. Take the Spanish Flu for example, the most deadly of which stared with the 2nd wave and progressed to even worse by the the 3rd wave. This was due to lax uptakes of safety proticals and general denying that there was even a pandemic occuring and of course they didn't have the benefit of a vaccine. We do have a vaccine and yet we are still allowing people to choose whether they want to take it or not. Utter madness and more than enough reason to bypass 'individual civil liberty' for the good of the masses.

 

NB:- Agree that the western world has to do more for less well-off nations. It's for all our benefit.

Africa has been doing much better than the rest of the world with vaccination rates less than 10%.

 

Go figure that one....

[ed strong]

4 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I believe in democracy and of course we are paying the price that we are living in a democracy during this pandemic, which of course we have never experienced before, that said, at the end of the day, we will never find a solution to this in a democratic society, that's what makes democracy, a democracy that gives us the right to be different, to say no, or enough is enough, to challenge, not to be dictated too.

 

Would I love for everyone to get vaccinated, sure thing, but hey, this is the price we pay for living in a democracy, and I would rather live under a "democratic society" vs "tyranny". 

 

Democratic societies work far better than than those less fortunate, that said, we cannot control what we cannot control as much as we would love to control it, regardless if the science says it's the way to go.

 

I share your frustrations.

I'm presuming you do not reside in Thailand as it is not a democracy!! Its pretty far from being a democratic country!

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, ed strong said:

I'm presuming you do not reside in Thailand as it is not a democracy!! Its pretty far from being a democratic country!

Actually, I have been living here for 6 years, my point being, no one has forced us to get vaccinated, those of us educated enough and with the help from the USA in my situation, received a decent vaccination.

[MrJ2U]

6 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Sorry about your friend - I hope he/she recovers.   But what's to say they wouldn't be in the same situation if they had a different vaccine?  Is your friend old, does he/she have existing conditions?

You are implying your friend is in this state because of the "Chinese vaccine".  Perhaps if not for the "Chinese vaccine" they would be dead.  Sinovac was the first vaccine available and it has undoubtedly saved many many lives. But TVF geezers know better than tho WHO who have rated it as highly effective............simply because it is Chinese and not made by Western white people, it's as simple as that, just latent racism.  But you seem to hope Anutin dies for vaccinating people with a highly effective non Western vaccine.

"A real-world study of tens of millions of Chileans who received CoronaVac found it 66% effective against symptomatic COVID-19, 88% against hospitalization, 90% against ICU admissions, and 86% against deaths.^[12] In Brazil, after 75% of the population in Serrana, São Paulo, received CoronaVac, preliminary results show deaths fell by 95%, hospitalizations by 86%, and symptomatic cases by 80%.^[13][14] In Indonesia, real world data from 128,290 healthcare workers showed 94% protection against symptomatic infection by the vaccine, beating results in clinical trials.<sup>[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoronaVac

The WHO organisation on Sinovac:

We cannot compare the vaccines head-to-head due to the different approaches taken in designing the respective studies, but overall, all of the vaccines that have achieved WHO Emergency Use Listing are highly effective in preventing severe disease and hospitalization due to COVID-19.</sup>

 

AZ is by far the most widely administered vaccine in Thailand BTW.  This anti Chinese thing is just racism, and so so tiresome.

Not racism.

The Chinese vaccines are inferior.

CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19)

"Sinovac not effective against Delta variant, AstraZeneca is"

 

https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/sinovac-not-effective-against-delta-variant-astrazeneca-is

 

If Sinovac is your choice when you have Pfeizer available as an expat then by all means get your Chinese stuff.

 

Educated people will choose am mRNA vaccine.

 

Doctors,nurses, and front line medical workers have been pleading for mRNA vaccines over the Chinese vaccines.

 

Haven't you read about it?

 

 

 

[rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

But isn't democracy the will of the majority? Much in the same way we don't listen to flat earthers, why are we still suffering because of the ignorant and the uneducated? Why is Europe back to lockdowns because a minority are choosing to believe conspiracies and complete nonsense rather than science and facts? Why is their 'opinion' carrying so much weight we now have to elongate a crisis that should have finished a long time ago because the cure and the remedy has already been found? 

As the saying goes, you are welcome to your own opinion but you are not welcome to your own facts and when that 'opinion' is causing so much death, destruction and hardship,  at what point do we just say 'enough is enough' and let the will of the majority start dictating the options of the few?

I say lets get on with life and let Darwin sort out the rest.   

Why is Europe back to lockdowns because a minority are choosing to believe conspiracies and complete nonsense rather than science and facts?

 

Most of the adult Portugese population is vaccinated, and yet they are now imposing tight restrictions again. Please explain this to an ignorant uneducated wretch such as myself.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Why is Europe back to lockdowns because a minority are choosing to believe conspiracies and complete nonsense rather than science and facts?

 

Most of the adult Portugese population is vaccinated, and yet they are now imposing tight restrictions again. Please explain this to an ignorant uneducated wretch such as myself.

Because Portugal is responding to the Delta variant which is not the variant the vast majority’s of Portuguese have been vaccinated against.

[rattlesnake]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Because Portugal is responding to the Delta variant which is not the variant the vast majority’s of Portuguese have been vaccinated against.

Right, so it is not the unvaccinated people's fault then, is it?

 

The entire Portugese population got vaccinated because the authorities told them it was the only way back to a normal life. This is clearly not happening. I am sure they will figure out who is to blame for this.

[Chomper Higgot]

46 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Right, so it is not the unvaccinated people's fault then, is it?

 

The entire Portugese population got vaccinated because the authorities told them it was the only way back to a normal life. This is clearly not happening. I am sure they will figure out who is to blame for this.

You’ve already pointed out the relatively  high level of vaccination in Portugal and the link you provided also discusses the a-political response Portugal has followed.

 

You have demonstrated Portugal is charting its own course through the pandemic.

 

Now you want to infer the Portuguese continuing response says something about the unvaccinated elsewhere.

 

You need first to demonstrate that Portugal’s response is not simply a continuation of the nation’s existing policies.

 

Portugal is doing a good job fighting this disease, in its own way.  

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/portugal/

 

Perhaps you should look at parts of the world with high vaccination refusal.

 

[rattlesnake]

34 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You’ve already pointed out the relatively  high level of vaccination in Portugal and the link you provided also discusses the a-political response Portugal has followed.

 

You have demonstrated Portugal is charting its own course through the pandemic.

 

Now you want to infer the Portuguese continuing response says something about the unvaccinated elsewhere.

 

You need first to demonstrate that Portugal’s response is not simply a continuation of the nation’s existing policies.

 

Portugal is doing a good job fighting this disease, in its own way.  

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/portugal/

 

Perhaps you should look at parts of the world with high vaccination refusal.

 

You’ve already pointed out the relatively  high level of vaccination in Portugal.

The level of vaccination in Portugal is not relatively high, it is extremely high (98% of those elligible are vaccinated).

 

Now you want to infer the Portuguese continuing response says something about the unvaccinated elsewhere.

You need first to demonstrate that Portugal’s response is not simply a continuation of the nation’s existing policies.

The policies implemented by Portugal are similar to what has been done in other countries: masks, lockdowns and prohibition of gatherings to name just a few:

COVID-19 pandemic in Portugal

As elsewhere, vaccination has been widely advocated by the authorities and media as the key to returning to normal.

 

You have demonstrated Portugal is charting its own course through the pandemic.

I haven't. As stated above, Portugal's response has been similar to elsewhere overall, and now, with 98% of its elligible population inocculated, they are imposing a vaccine pass and new restrictions. I am citing this country as a relevant example to illustrate my point, which is that a high vaccination coverage does not guarantee the crisis will come to an end (a premise which has been hammered down ad nauseam by the authorities and media for close to a year).

 

Perhaps you should look at parts of the world with high vaccination refusal.

Parts of the world which are less vaccinated are blaming the unvaccinated for the continued restrictions and surges. The Portugese example serves as a demonstration that this stance is not valid.

[Lizzy Duang]

On 11/27/2021 at 4:21 AM, Stargeezr said:

I have no positive feeling for the

unvaccinated who are plugging up the hospitals. 

I have no sympathy ... What if others have no sympathy for the smoker who got lung cancer, the fast food addict who got a blood clot etc, all blocking the ICUs. That's not how it works, at least it shouldn't be for docs.

[Lizzy Duang]

10 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

This anti Chinese thing is just racism, and so so tiresome.

I don't think so. It's customer boycott. I don't give profit to vaccine makers of the country who is responsible for the disease. Actually, not a lot was done so far to punish China. That's the least I can do.

[Meat Pie 47]

11 minutes ago, Lizzy Duang said:

I have no sympathy ... What if others have no sympathy for the smoker who got lung cancer, the fast food addict who got a blood clot etc, all blocking the ICUs. That's not how it works, at least it shouldn't be for docs.

So if you are fat and have diabetes you can pass it on to someone else? What a joke.

[Lizzy Duang]

15 minutes ago, Meat Pie 47 said:

So if you are fat and have diabetes you can pass it on to someone else? What a joke.

No. Everyone can pass the virus. But fat and diabetic "block" ICUs, too. In Germany that struggles a lot the COVID cases are still the minority in the ICU. Since when do we judge by disease or by lack of prevention?

Edited November 28, 2021 by Lizzy Duang
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