Thailand road carnage continues: 12,000 dead this year so far

[Rimmer]

A troll/slur has been removed

[TropicalGuy]

On 12/11/2021 at 2:54 PM, DjSilver said:

The truth is that I'm more scared of dying in a traffic accident in Thailand than dying from covid ????????????

12,000 times more scared in fact ….!????

[Thunglom]

49 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

You just don't get it do you.

Jog on.

 

I think your total lack of an argument says more about you than anything else. It's also a classic example of how foreign drivers suffer from a false sense of superiority , whilst lacking any understanding of road safety..... a potentially dangerous combination.

basically if you find yourself pouring out vitriol and shouting at other motorists, it's time to review your own driving.

[Orinoco]

1 hour ago, Thunglom said:

I think your total lack of an argument says more about you than anything else. It's also a classic example of how foreign drivers suffer from a false sense of superiority , whilst lacking any understanding of road safety..... a potentially dangerous combination.

basically if you find yourself pouring out vitriol and shouting at other motorists, it's time to review your own driving.

You come on here.

Saying we are all wrong .

We don't under stand anything.

We lack this and lack that.

You state we are part of the problem here.

What a joker you are.

Your right i don't have an argument.

Just a good understanding of the real problems in Thailand.

Not one of the symptoms, like you are fixated on.

 

Like i said you just don't get it.

 

Ps Had enough of your clap trap and im sure many others have.

welcome to the list. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jen65]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:12 PM, spidermike007 said:

A large part of this is the weak cops and the pathetic highway patrol. 

Nobody, and I mean nobody takes these guys seriously. There is absolutely nothing in the way of a deterrent here, and both the local governments, the central government (Cha Cha) and the police do not take traffic safety seriously. The safety of the public means less than zero to the small men in charge here. Nothing. They show that on a daily basis.

 

They will not do a thing. Why? They do not care about the people one iota. Not the common people. Not the average pleb. No way. Never have cared, and may never care in the future. It is all about protecting the elite, the super wealthy, those that are connected, and those in power. The rest of the population? They do not matter. The ex-pat community does not matter. And the police will not get involved unless an accident has already occurred. There is no prevention. None. The idea of getting the police more involved, is an interesting one, and it would be an effective one. But, the issue is money. They are grossly underpaid, and until the government steps up, and spends the trillion baht on updating the police equipment, and paying each cop a living wage, it is not going to happen. Until then, they will just work the franchise.

 

The only way to survive here on the road, is to be patient, have eyes in the back of your head, drive with alot of caution, and always watch out of the other guy. Chances are, he does not have much driving skill, nor patience, nor reason, nor common sense. You cannot be too careful on the road here. Especially considering that the toy police offer no traffic safety, nor enforcement of the law.

 

When I was growing up, we took drivers education courses. They showed us horrendous films, or semi trucks plowing into cars, and literally obliterating everything in their path. They also showed us graphic images of head on collisions. 120mph impacts. Even as a young kid, it made quite an impression. It was horrific, and it was hard to get those images out of your head afterwards. But, it left a lasting impression, and when I started driving, I understood it was serious business, and that it was a very dangerous thing to do.

 

I see people driving here, with their families in the car, and doing things, and taking the kinds of risks no rational or sane person with common sense would do. What for? To gain one minute? Why take those risks? What is the logic? Often, when I am cruising along at 100kph, someone cuts right in front of me. Or someone comes out from the side road, right in front of me. I have to slam on my brakes, or change lanes to avoid him. I look in my rearview mirror, and there is nobody behind me. So, if he had waited two seconds, he would have had completely safe passage onto the highway. What gives? Where is the intelligence, caution, and prudence? Where is the common sense? What about just the survival instinct?
 

In Saudi we used to say " their in a hurry to meet Allah " !!!!     The other thing was if you did have an accident with a local/national , you would always be at fault ,  because as a foreigner " if you weren't here it wouldn't have happened "!!!!       

[Thunglom]

24 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

You come on here.

Saying we are all wrong .

We don't under stand anything.

We lack this and lack that.

You state we are part of the problem here.

What a joker you are.

Your right i don't have an argument.

Just a good understanding of the real problems in Thailand.

Not one of the symptoms, like you are fixated on.

 

Like i said you just don't get it.

 

Ps Had enough of your clap trap and im sure many others have.

welcome to the list. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is precisely the blinkered attitude that supports the continuation of Thailand's poor road safety record and the reason it hasn't changed. Unless you understand te problem it will never change.

Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger effect appreciation of their own driving skills.

 

How people form their opinions on driving can be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as if they are authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. Why is this? When it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably consider themselves to be “experts” 

 

---

[1] Dunning-Kruger effect: - a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

 

[Wazoo]

On 12/13/2021 at 9:11 AM, jacko45k said:

That is not all it takes.... policing and punishment for those who break driving regulations needed.

Phew now that would take the fun out.. nah.  Love using any lane etc 555

[TropicalGuy]

14 hours ago, Jen65 said:

In Saudi we used to say " their in a hurry to meet Allah " !!!!     The other thing was if you did have an accident with a local/national , you would always be at fault ,  because as a foreigner " if you weren't here it wouldn't have happened "!!!!       

and would never stop to help if you were not involved .  ….. backward Asian fatalistic and collective life view incompatible with vehicle driving where you MUST be skilled and proactive as lives at stake. Western Individual Responsibility the biggest gift …….

[Jen65]

1 hour ago, TropicalGuy said:

and would never stop to help if you were not involved .  ….. backward Asian fatalistic and collective life view incompatible with vehicle driving where you MUST be skilled and proactive as lives at stake. Western Individual Responsibility the biggest gift …….

????   Saudi is not Asia ??   I never said " I " would not stop to help/assist if I saw an accident !!   

[TropicalGuy]

15 hours ago, Thunglom said:

This is precisely the blinkered attitude that supports the continuation of Thailand's poor road safety record and the reason it hasn't changed. Unless you understand te problem it will never change.

Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger effect appreciation of their own driving skills.

 

How people form their opinions on driving can be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as if they are authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. Why is this? When it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably consider themselves to be “experts” 

 

---

[1] Dunning-Kruger effect: - a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

 

The provided  correct Western rational thought and analysis has NOTHING to do with the calamitous THAI Driving practices and outcome. 

Your opinions reinforce classic Thai thinking : not my fault / not my responsibility/ not anything I can do . THAT will clearly never change so Carry On Road Carnage. Same in Arab states except few driving mopeds there so fewer Deaths.

[mtraveler]

15 hours ago, Thunglom said:

This is precisely the blinkered attitude that supports the continuation of Thailand's poor road safety record and the reason it hasn't changed. Unless you understand te problem it will never change.

Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger effect appreciation of their own driving skills.

 

How people form their opinions on driving can be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as if they are authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. Why is this? When it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably consider themselves to be “experts” 

 

---

[1] Dunning-Kruger effect: - a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

 

It's a great theoretical argument.  But I think you're missing the point. 

 

A person driving his/her motorbike the wrong way on the highway or a local street is a menace to all others on the road.  Perhaps they will get killed, though really no fault of the other person driving in the correct direction.  Perhaps they will kill some innocent person going the right way.  Or perhaps they will just add chaos to the road.  I don't think my thinking is "Dunning Kruger Effect" at all.  I think it's just plain simple logic.  Otherwise, why do we have 2 different sides of the street on which to drive?  

 

I don't think it takes a genius to figure out that too many Thai people take too many chances when they drive.  

 

I bicycle extensively here in Thailand, and I experience close calls on every ride, whether from motorbikes going the wrong way and forcing me out into traffic, or oncoming cars not staying in their own lane, sometimes causing me to bail off the road to not get killed. 

 

I might suck as a driver sometimes, but I sure suck MUCH LESS than the average Thai driver.  

[TropicalGuy]

7 minutes ago, Jen65 said:

????   Saudi is not Asia ??   I never said " I " would not stop to help/assist if I saw an accident !!   

No, I did. Doubt you were in KSA for long if prepared to stop to help at accident there ….rookie expat error…..and not knowing KSA is in Asia…..

[Thunglom]

4 hours ago, mtraveler said:

It's a great theoretical argument.  But I think you're missing the point. 

 

A person driving his/her motorbike the wrong way on the highway or a local street is a menace to all others on the road.  Perhaps they will get killed, though really no fault of the other person driving in the correct direction.  Perhaps they will kill some innocent person going the right way.  Or perhaps they will just add chaos to the road.  I don't think my thinking is "Dunning Kruger Effect" at all.  I think it's just plain simple logic.  Otherwise, why do we have 2 different sides of the street on which to drive?  

 

I don't think it takes a genius to figure out that too many Thai people take too many chances when they drive.  

 

I bicycle extensively here in Thailand, and I experience close calls on every ride, whether from motorbikes going the wrong way and forcing me out into traffic, or oncoming cars not staying in their own lane, sometimes causing me to bail off the road to not get killed. 

 

I might suck as a driver sometimes, but I sure suck MUCH LESS than the average Thai driver.  

You just completely missed the whole point. Unless you take a racist point of view that Thai people are incapable of driving.

[Thunglom]

So long as people think that they cn Balme others and not realise they are part of the problem, they won't SEE the problem

 

The 2 main enemies of clear thinking on road safety are confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance…… It is important to overcome them….

Overcoming these prejudices helps to get a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation in Thailand and then to assess one’s personal driving skills. 

 

To understand road safety, it is advisable to drop the concept of “bad drivers” altogether and consider it in terms of human error within a Road Safety environment; a holistic approach to Thailand’s road environment” … and then consider how YOU fit into this either as a road user or even just a bystander. It can require a bit of soul-searching but in the end might make Thai roads safer for yourself and others.

 

Perceptions in Thailand seem very skewed as is reflected in government policies and most comments you see in the media – whether the main news or social media.

 

Most of the advice you see on driving in Thailand seems to be based purely on the “blame game” aimed at “other” (Thai) drivers and nape of the neck dictums from politicians trying to look as if they are doing something.

 

This has long been a discredited view in road safety science.

[Thunglom]

21 hours ago, Orinoco said:

Not one of the symptoms, like you are fixated on.

Which symptom is that?

 

[mtraveler]

3 hours ago, Thunglom said:

You just completely missed the whole point. Unless you take a racist point of view that Thai people are incapable of driving.

Making an objective observation of the driving skills of Thai people in general is not a racist point of view.  It is an observable evaluation of the facts in front of me.  

 

Having lived in the US for many years, and driven there for more than 45, I can tell you that when I was there, I never saw someone drive a motorbike the wrong direction on a highway.  Ok, maybe I saw it once or twice, but it's not something I would see 50 times a day.   How is that NOT an objective observation of the way Thai people drive?   I've also never seen an 18-wheeler make a U-turn on a highway.  I could go on, but you get the point.  

 

I don't think Thai people are incapable of driving. I simply think this is what they've observed other people do, and what they've learned, and consequently drive this way.  

 

 

[Thunglom]

12 minutes ago, mtraveler said:

Making an objective observation of the driving skills of Thai people in general is not a racist point of view.  It is an observable evaluation of the facts in front of me.  

What you don't realise is this is precisely why you are getting it wrong - personal anecdotal evidence is NOT the way to do it.

I mentioned confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance above - perhaps I should have added Dunning Kruger effect as well.

....so long as you fixate on your own observations and consider it a "bad driving" problem - you are barking up the wrong tree - it's a public health problem and a public perception problem this isn't ME ... it's the science of road safety - just as the old isn't flat, its well established and you seem totally unaware of it.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/13/2021 at 10:47 AM, Thunglom said:

As I said earlier there needs to be a holistic approach as used in Europe, NZ and a few other countries.

Please don't include NZ in that. I'm shocked at how badly people drive in NZ. Problem is most have no idea how to drive in rural areas and tailgating is far too common. I have no idea why the death rate isn't way higher.

[Thunglom]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Please don't include NZ in that. I'm shocked at how badly people drive in NZ. Problem is most have no idea how to drive in rural areas and tailgating is far too common. I have no idea why the death rate isn't way higher.

This is another example of people using personal anecdotal evidence - it is subjective and suffers from confirmation bias.

the reality is that the death rate in NZ is now 7.1 per 100,000 whereas in Thailand it is 32.5 per 100,000.

The conclusion you could draw here is that the death rate is totally disconnected from what is popularly assumed to be "bad driving" and therefore those promulgating this hypothesis are barking up the wrong tree.

 

New Zealand first introduced the Safe System approach about 10 years ago - with mixed results, but they are now moving on to "Road to Zero", which adopts a vision of a New Zealand where no one is killed or seriously injured in road crashes. It also sets an interim target of a 40% reduction in death and serious injuries by 2030. This is basically the extension on the Safe System both originating from Sweden.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Thunglom said:

This is another example of people using personal anecdotal evidence - it is subjective and suffers from confirmation bias.

the reality is that the death rate in NZ is now 7.1 per 100,000 whereas in Thailand it is 32.5 per 100,000.

The conclusion you could draw here is that the death rate is totally disconnected from what is popularly assumed to be "bad driving" and therefore those promulgating this hypothesis are barking up the wrong tree.

I put it down to dumb luck and the fact that there are only 5 million people in the entire country. If there were 55 million I reckon the death rate would be at least comparable with Thailand's. Also, cops are rarely seen on the roads, as apparently they are well under strength, and probably don't have enough to be patrolling in greater numbers.

Personal observation perhaps, but I avoid driving during the week as much as possible, as the roads are full of idiots that won't drive properly.

[Thunglom]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I put it down to dumb luck and the fact that there are only 5 million people in the entire country. If there were 55 million I reckon the death rate would be at least comparable with Thailand's. Also, cops are rarely seen on the roads, as apparently they are well under strength, and probably don't have enough to be patrolling in greater numbers.

Personal observation perhaps, but I avoid driving during the week as much as possible, as the roads are full of idiots that won't drive properly.

Yes , but it is deaths per 100k that has nothing to do with population size - it is a death rate that is applicable regardless of population size - I thought that was obvious. you are now displaying cognitive dissonance.

Unfortunately this has no hard evidence back you up...it's just subjective assumption. Comparing NZ and Thailand is actually quite difficult and this is because so many people talk only about death rate per 100k...there are many more statistics that ca be used when trying to assess road safety.

you also mention lack of police - well the is exactly what people describe in Thailand and you then fall into the trap of assuming everybody but you is an idiot.

 

You are still fixating on "bad driving" which has already been demonstrated as nonsense the it comes to road safety.

 

I’d also like to point out a problem with those who complain of tailgating.

This normally arises when the car in front is going too slow for the car behind. 

In New Zealand most of the “highways” are two or three lanes without any central reservation.

On two lanes the culture in countries like New Zealand is that slower vehicles are expected to pull over or make way to allow faster vehicles to pass. Failure to do this is considered bad manners and it is quite likely you’ll incur the anger of other motorists.

The message is simple and it’s to the car in front “get out of the way!”

[Thaijack2014]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:24 AM, Thunglom said:

Belgium didn't have any driving test until the 1970s

That's true and I remember when driving in Germany on the autobahn and we saw a car with a Belgium numberplate, we stayed as far away as possible, because they drove very badly. That was in the 80's. To clear eventual confusion: I lived near the German border, in the south of the Netherlands. Belgium was about 30 km away from us. 

[Thunglom]

1 minute ago, Thaijack2014 said:

That's true and I remember when driving in Germany on the autobahn and we saw a car with a Belgium numberplate, we stayed as far away as possible, because they drove very badly. That was in the 80's. To clear eventual confusion: I lived near the German border, in the south of the Netherlands. Belgium was about 30 km away from us. 

I used to drive a truck from UK through Limburg to Germany every week for about 15 years.  What people don't realise is that in the 1970s France and Germany had similar death rates to what Thailand has now. The fact is the EU bought into the idea of the safe system and reduced their death rates to single figures - nothing to do with "bad drivers", a lot of them are still driving today - or living in Thailand. The fact is that if a country adopts the fe system the rods become safer and those "bad drivers" are not able to do want they want....until they re-emerge on Thai roads shouting at the locals.

[UbonEagle]

Of course more needs to be done in education and enforcement.

But believe me, you are wasting you energy trying to educate a lot of middle aged to elderly particulary bike riders. They just live in that bubble oblivious to dangers around them and sadly most dont have a lot to lose.

Start with the kids now and you might see some positive change down the track. Repeat offenders confiscate their wheels like many other countries.