ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Did you ever wonder where the transformers are that provide the power for electricity in a shopping mall?

No, I never wonder, as I have been on enough jobsites to know. 

 

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

On the roof.

No, this is generally not the case. 

 

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

So, where do think the transformers will go to provide power for chargers?

I give up, tell me.

 

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Try putting gasoline tanks on the roof of a building.

Why?

 

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Superchargers are self service including billing.

So they are as technically advanced as buying gas in the US.

 

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

In fact, a Tesla charger will automatically do the billing, in the cases where there's billing to be done without involving the customer at all, And even if that weren't the case, you think that a couple more minutes would be a significant inconvenience for most people?

No, clearly most people don't care how long anything takes. But if you own a facility that processes 300 units a day, a couple of minutes a unit is ten hours. Hopefully by then, the State will own everything and it will not matter how long people have to wait.   

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Yellowtail
ww

[transam]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Is this a frequent problem for most automobile owners? If it is, I think they should seek help and not the kind that provides gasoline.

When any petrol parks up for the night, a quick look at the fuel gauge tells the owner all OK to get to the gas station if a bit low, now I don't think that reassurance is there for an EV owner if the battery shows low..

 

Of course, I could be wrong, especially wiv some on this thread...????

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Did I say it was a frequent problem No I didn't but it does occur and  it appears you are unable to provide a sensible solution

 

13 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Once again It would appear you have no sensible solutions

Believe it or not, there are now vehicles that can come to where your EV is and recharge it. Do you really think that EV companies hadn't thought of this? And there are such things as tow trucks, are there not?

Also, portable charging units are now available. So I imagine a condo could have one of those that along with an extension cord, could solve that problem.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by placeholder

[SomchaiDIY]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Did you ever wonder where the transformers are that provide the power for electricity in a shopping mall? On the roof.

This is very interesting for me and engineer here at work

 

I can find in search of shopping mall power transformer in the ground compound and in ground level switch room and the small transformer on pole but cannot find main power transformer on roof

 

I am interest to see these big heavy transformer on roof of shopping mall

 

Can you show example for this please

 

Thank you

[Yellowtail]

13 minutes ago, SomchaiDIY said:

This is very interesting for me and engineer here at work

 

I can find in search of shopping mall power transformer in the ground compound and in ground level switch room and the small transformer on pole but cannot find main power transformer on roof

 

I am interest to see these big heavy transformer on roof of shopping mall

 

Can you show example for this please

 

Thank you

The contractors disguise then as chillers to fool the inspectors...  

[placeholder]

xxxx

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, because that's what's being mandated. 

 

 

I guess I can't do anything about your extremely fallible memory but to cite this study  from Lazard Freres, one of the worlds pee-eminent financial advisors and asset management"

 

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

Of course, this study is out of date. For example, it posited a natural gas price of 3.85 mmbtu. In the USA, where gas prices are much lower than in most of the economically developed nations, the cost today is over 6 dollars and in the EU and UK many times that. And the price of coal has since zoomed upwards. So the situation today is far worse for fossil fuel powered plants.

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, SomchaiDIY said:

This is very interesting for me and engineer here at work

 

I can find in search of shopping mall power transformer in the ground compound and in ground level switch room and the small transformer on pole but cannot find main power transformer on roof

 

I am interest to see these big heavy transformer on roof of shopping mall

 

Can you show example for this please

 

Thank you

San Francisco: New Rooftop Transformers Improve Office Building’s Reliability, Safety

SAN FRANCISCO—Replacing electrical transformers is no easy feat, especially when the equipment is housed at the top of a 37-story office building in San Francisco’s bustling Financial District.

PG&E is overseeing an electrical improvement project months in the making to replace three transformers in a vault just below the roof of 50 California St., which at 487 feet high is the 22^nd tallest building in San Francisco.

https://www.pgecurrents.com/2012/06/19/san-francisco-new-rooftop-transformers-improve-office-building’s-reliability-safety/

There are plenty of others. Just do a search using something called Google which works via something called the interweb or something like that.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

xxxx

I guess I can't do anything about your extremely fallible memory but to cite this study  from Lazard Freres, one of the worlds pee-eminent financial advisors and asset management"

 

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/

Of course, this study is out of date. For example, it posited a natural gas price of 3.85 mmbtu. In the USA, where gas prices are much lower than in most of the economically developed nations, the cost today is over 6 dollars and in the EU and UK many times that. And the price of coal has since zoomed upwards. So the situation today is far worse for fossil fuel powered plants.

Indeed. That's why all the power companies are scrambling to replace their fossil fuel plants with solar farms that provide power for a fraction of the cost, yes? Which again begs the question, why all the mandates? 

 

I don't doubt there is long money to be made in "reenable energy", which I think is what  your "pee-eminent (Freudian slip?)  financial advisors...

 

Yes, drive up the cost of fossil fuels to pretend renewables are cost effective.

 

Mandate only renewable plants be built, and then point at them built as evidence are how great they are. 

 

I'm sure this plays well to the liberal arts majors. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

San Francisco: New Rooftop Transformers Improve Office Building’s Reliability, Safety

SAN FRANCISCO—Replacing electrical transformers is no easy feat, especially when the equipment is housed at the top of a 37-story office building in San Francisco’s bustling Financial District.

PG&E is overseeing an electrical improvement project months in the making to replace three transformers in a vault just below the roof of 50 California St., which at 487 feet high is the 22^nd tallest building in San Francisco.

https://www.pgecurrents.com/2012/06/19/san-francisco-new-rooftop-transformers-improve-office-building’s-reliability-safety/

There are plenty of others. Just do a search using something called Google which works via something called the interweb or something like that.

I thought you said shopping center, no? 

 

In any event, I never said they did not exist, only that they were not typical. 

 

Oh, and per your article, they are in a vault under the roof, not on the roof.

 

Why not check Vox? Surely they have a peer reviewed study you can link to. 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Yellowtail
clarity

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Indeed. That's why all the power companies are scrambling to replace their fossil fuel plants with solar farms that provide power for a fraction of the cost, yes? Which again begs the question, why all the mandates? 

 

I don't doubt there is long money to be made in "reenable energy", which I think is what  your "pee-eminent (Freudian slip?)  financial advisors...

 

Yes, drive up the cost of fossil fuels to pretend renewables are cost effective.

 

Mandate only renewable plants be built, and then point at them built as evidence are how great they are. 

 

I'm sure this plays well to the liberal arts majors. 

 

 

The mandates are there because burning coal is terribly polluting. Among other things it releases mercury, a well known neurotoxin into the atmosphere. Attempts to create clean coal plants have failed miserably.  And fossil fuel plants create CO2 which is the main greenhouse gas responsible for global warming. In addition natural gas extracton releases huge quantities of methane into the atmosphere. Methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than is CO2. It just doesn't last as long.

[Yellowtail]

Yep, once again they've disused them as chillers...

 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The mandates are there because burning coal is terribly polluting. Among other things it releases mercury, a well known neurotoxin into the atmosphere. Attempts to create clean coal plants have failed miserably.  And fossil fuel plants create CO2 which is the main greenhouse gas responsible for global warming. In addition natural gas extracton releases huge quantities of methane into the atmosphere. Methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than is CO2. It just doesn't last as long.

But I thought you said renewables were cheaper than coal, so why would the greedy capitalists that sell electricity not convert it all to renewals and increase their margins? 

 

[JetsetBkk]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I hope nobody wonders why the 'EV Thailand' thread is heavily moderated.

 

Think someone should start a thread 'fossil vs renewable energy & practical application of'

 

<snip>

I think someone should start a thread:

 

"Is Climate Change Real Or Are We Being Brainwashed By People Like Michael Mann and Greta Thunberg?"

 

Or, if there is one already, please provide a link!

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

But I thought you said renewables were cheaper than coal, so why would the greedy capitalists that sell electricity not convert it all to renewals and increase their margins? 

 

For one thing, there is the issue of monopolies. In most states, utilities don't face competition.

Also you can't just shut down a power plant unless you have something to replace it with. And that takes time. But most of the coal power plants in the USA are shut down already.

 

And in the USA some states, like Ohio, Kentucky, Oklahoma, and Montana actually have laws that protect their coal plants. Oddly enough, all these states have powerful coal mining interests operating there. And state utility regulators aren't necessarily enthusiastic promoters of the free market. And utility companies generally have a monopoly on power supply.

Utilities Running Uneconomic Coal Plants Cost Consumers $3.5 Billion From 2015-2017

Investors paying attention to energy economics understand coal-fired power is a great way to lose money. Murray Energy’s bankruptcy makes it clear coal can’t compete in the electricity sector, yet coal keeps clinging to life, especially when owned and operated by monopoly utilities.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/12/03/utilities-running-uneconomic-coal-plants-cost-consumers-35-billion-from-2015-2017/?sh=3dd51758342d

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

+No, clearly most people don't care how long anything takes. But if you own a facility that processes 300 units a day, a couple of minutes a unit is ten hours. Hopefully by then, the State will own everything and it will not matter how long people have to wait.   

 

 

Why would EV charging facilities be more crowded than gas stations? It's true that currently there are less charging stations, but there are also a lot less EV's out there than autos. Is it that you don't believe in the laws of supply and demand?

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

 

Believe it or not, there are now vehicles that can come to where your EV is and recharge it. Do you really think that EV companies hadn't thought of this? And there are such things as tow trucks, are there not?

Also, portable charging units are now available. So I imagine a condo could have one of those that along with an extension cord, could solve that problem.

 

 

It will be interesting to see how that plays out

When a condo building owner installs and provides a cleaning service for a smoking area they all receive complaints from non-smokers stating we refused to pay for that area

A charging unit costs between 2-3 million baht plus maintenance I am sure the non ev owners will state we refused to pay any additional charge

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

No, I never wonder, as I have been on enough jobsites to know. ++

Alleged personal experiences apparently are all you've got. You think this qualifies as evidence?

Is this like your claim that you purchased a phone in 1975 for $8 and now a phone costs $1600.

Since your comparison only is relevant if the  capabilities of those phones are the same, I have to ask you are you a time traveler? Come to think of it I guess not since you claimed the phone cost $8. You must have built it yourself. Which is amazing considering all the things that a $1600 phone can do nowadays. 

[KhunLA]

23 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

I think someone should start a thread:

 

"Is Climate Change Real Or Are We Being Brainwashed By People Like Michael Mann and Greta Thunberg?"

 

Or, if there is one already, please provide a link!

 

Yea, thinking the same, but should be one started already, if not  ...  think I will.

[transam]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Why would EV charging facilities be more crowded than gas stations? It's true that currently there are less charging stations, but there are also a lot less EV's out there than autos. Is it that you don't believe in the laws of supply and demand?

 

I think you are making excuses here. You are doing the hard EV sell yet in LOS charge stations are very patchy. Home basic charge gear takes forever.

It takes 2 minutes for a guy to fill up wiv petrol, so can send many of folk on their way in no time, how about an EV...?

 

PHEV is the way to go in this country...

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It will be interesting to see how that plays out

When a condo building owner installs and provides a cleaning service for a smoking area they all receive complaints from non-smokers stating we refused to pay for that area

A charging unit costs between 2-3 million baht plus maintenance I am sure the non ev owners will state we refused to pay any additional charge

They don't cost that much. And level 2 chargers cost a lot less. And level 1 chargers less than that.

But presumably, if superchargers were installed, users will be charged for the use of one, so it might actually generate a profit, no? So really not like a cleaning service for the smoking area. Unless, of course, smokers are being charged for the use of it.

 

[KhunLA]

Interesting vid, still watching, but implied better range with different tires, though would think wee bit more or size size wouldn't make that much, range wise. 

 

Other issues, ride, noise.  Especially noise, as I've heard some cars and mainly trucks, 4X4s driving around and no way could I deal with some of the noise I hear coming from them.

 

Few minutes into the vid and not much range difference.  I'd go with ride & noise vs more range.

 

I've been on different roads here/TH, with the Vios & Mazda 2, and some were quiet & smooth, other rough & annoyingly noisy.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by KhunLA

[placeholder]

29 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

I think someone should start a thread:

 

"Is Climate Change Real Or Are We Being Brainwashed By People Like Michael Mann and Greta Thunberg?"

 

Or, if there is one already, please provide a link!

 

Most denialists aren't even claiming that anymore. Now they're ex-denialists. Instead, they've turned to conceding that human-caused climate change is real but it can be managed through adaptation and it's not that serious.  Anyway, it's kind of refreshing to see someone clinging to the old beliefs. Kind of like encountering a fire worshiper, Which, in a way, you are.

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yea, thinking the same, but should be one started already, if not  ...  think I will.

This thread seems to fit the bill:

 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

I think you are making excuses here. You are doing the hard EV sell yet in LOS charge stations are very patchy. Home basic charge gear takes forever.

It takes 2 minutes for a guy to fill up wiv petrol, so can send many of folk on their way in no time, how about an EV...?

 

PHEV is the way to go in this country...

Define forever. I've read that it can take 24 hours to do that. But that's for the USA.

Keep in mind that in the US the voltage is half of what it is in thailand. So, 12 hours to fully charge. Plug in your car in the evening and you should get pretty close to a full charge in 12 hours. And that's if your battery is virtually empty. Not gonna be the case too often. So think of all the time you've saved by not having to go out of your way to get to a service station and then the time it takes to fill up the car.

 

And now it's down to 2 minutes for filling a tank? Not even yellowtail made such an extravagant claim. 2 minutes certainly doesn't correspond to my experience at filling stations. 

[VocalNeal]

Our small town has three charging points.

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

For one thing, there is the issue of monopolies. In most states, utilities don't face competition.

Also you can't just shut down a power plant unless you have something to replace it with. And that takes time. But most of the coal power plants in the USA are shut down already.

Did you not understand the question? Monopoly or otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense for any company to produce their their product at a higher cost than they have have to. 

 

Again, if renewables are actually cheaper, why would these greedy capitalist providers not automatically switch over and improve their margins? 

 

Why do state like California have brown-outs, give the investments they've made (and compelled) in renewables? 

 

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And in the USA some states, like Ohio, Kentucky, Oklahoma, and Montana actually have laws that protect their coal plants. Oddly enough, all these states have powerful coal mining interests operating there. And state utility regulators aren't necessarily enthusiastic promoters of the free market. And utility companies generally have a monopoly on power supply.

Utilities Running Uneconomic Coal Plants Cost Consumers $3.5 Billion From 2015-2017

Investors paying attention to energy economics understand coal-fired power is a great way to lose money. Murray Energy’s bankruptcy makes it clear coal can’t compete in the electricity sector, yet coal keeps clinging to life, especially when owned and operated by monopoly utilities.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/12/03/utilities-running-uneconomic-coal-plants-cost-consumers-35-billion-from-2015-2017/?sh=3dd51758342d

Again, it makes absolutely no economic sense to produce the same product at a higher cost. 

 

Remember. these are greedy, (generally) publicly held companies, so while the officers of the company may be stupid, care nothing about the margins and want only to desecrate the environment at any cost, surely there are stockholders (even leftists) that are not stupid, care about the margins and love the environment, yes? 

[JetsetBkk]

Just now, VocalNeal said:

Our small town has three charging points.

... and one gas station?   ????

[vinny41]

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

They don't cost that much. And level 2 chargers cost a lot less. And level 1 chargers less than that.

But presumably, if superchargers were installed, users will be charged for the use of one, so it might actually generate a profit, no? So really not like a cleaning service for the smoking area. Unless, of course, smokers are being charged for the use of it.

 

According to the results of the study of the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand, Each type of electric vehicle charging station requires an average investment of 2-3 million baht per installation of 1 AC or 1 DC unit with a parking space. with a payback period of approximately 2-4 years.

https://www.thansettakij.com/property/531406

[Yellowtail]

35 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Why would EV charging facilities be more crowded than gas stations? It's true that currently there are less charging stations, but there are also a lot less EV's out there than autos. Is it that you don't believe in the laws of supply and demand?

 

Yes, I do believe in supply and demand, I'm not a leftist. 

 

Why do you have to resort to lying? I did not say they would be more crowded, I said that if a station can process three hundred units a day. and it takes two extra minutes to process each unit, processing the units will take an additional ten hours. 

 

Is that not true? 

 

But you are correct, It the same number people are attempting to use the same service, if it takes longer to process each one, it will likely be more crowded. 

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Did you not understand the question? Monopoly or otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense for any company to produce their their product at a higher cost than they have have to. 

 

Again, if renewables are actually cheaper, why would these greedy capitalist providers not automatically switch over and improve their margins? 

 

Why do state like California have brown-outs, give the investments they've made (and compelled) in renewables? 

 

Again, it makes absolutely no economic sense to produce the same product at a higher cost. 

 

Remember. these are greedy, (generally) publicly held companies, so while the officers of the company may be stupid, care nothing about the margins and want only to desecrate the environment at any cost, surely there are stockholders (even leftists) that are not stupid, care about the margins and love the environment, yes? 

I guess you don't know that state utility commission can set rates in such a way as to guarantee that the utility makes a profit. Many of these utilities are monopolies. Whichi is a situation that suits greedy capitalists just fine. Unless you believe that they're all devotees of Ayn Rand.

And what makes your arguments all the more ridiculous is that utilities overwhelmingly are conceding that coal power no longer makes economic sense so they won't be building coal plants in the future.

ANd as for renewables contributing to brownouts and or blackouts:

 

Wind and solar power are 'bailing out' Texas amid record heat and energy demand

Texans are cranking on the air conditioning this week amid an unusually early heat wave, setting new records for electricity demand in the state, which surpassed 75 gigawatts on Sunday and smashed the 2019 record...

But unlike previous extreme weather events in Texas which led to deadly blackouts, the grid is holding up remarkably well this week. Several experts told CNN that it's owed in large part to strong performances from wind and solar, which generated 27 gigawatts of electricity during Sunday's peak demand -- close to 40% of the total needed.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/14/us/texas-energy-record-solar-wind-climate/index.html