ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[ExpatOilWorker]

5 minutes ago, retarius said:

sorts out a good network of fast chargers

Yeah, that little problem needs to be sorted out.

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Toyota reported record annual net profit of ¥4.94 trillion ($31.9 billion) on Wednesday, but the world's largest automaker by sales warned that the current year would be less spectacular.

For this year it expects net profit of ¥3.57 trillion, down 27.8%, because of investments in "growth areas" such as electric and hydrogen cars, as well as in "human capital."

Toyota last month said it sold 11.1 million vehicles across all brands in fiscal 2023, up 5% and the first time the company had exceeded 10 million.

A big factor was a 31% jump in sales of hybrid vehicles — combining internal combustion engines and batteries

Toyota is however still aiming to sell 1.5 million EVs annually by 2026 and 3.5 million by 2030.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/business/2024/05/08/companies/toyota-posts-record-yearly-net-profit/

Toyota seems to be doing better than other Brands

They are not having a firesale to sell their vehicles like some EV Brands

Toyota is the king of the chart.

[josephbloggs]

26 minutes ago, retarius said:

Personally I wouldn't bet against Toyota. A very smart company. I drove Mercedes for much of my working life but moved to work in Japan. I was given a company car....a Toyota Crown Royal Saloon (they didn't have Lexus in Japan in this days). This car was an eyeopener, made the Benz looks like a cart and horse.

So remember before you part with any money, that in the 70s and early 80s when Japanese cars were rubbished as rust buckets and their motorcycles were called 'rice burners' by the shortsighted western car and bike manufacturers. Were it not for some serious protectionism by the US Toyota would have wiped out their car industry like they did their motor bike industry.

Yes, Toyota make excellent - if very uninspiring and dull - cars. Not since the late 80's / early 90's have they produced anything fun or interesting. Back in those days I loved the crazy Japanese sports cars: and Toyota's Celica GT4 and Supra were fantastic and I badly wanted one. (Never got one) The new Supra looks quite cool though.

I have owned one Toyota and while it was perfectly good I wouldn't buy another one. Insipid to drive, just incredibly dull.

 

I have owned a Lexus IS250 and that was a great car. Actually quite fun - rear wheel drive, V6, and beautifully appointed. So their quality is good, no questions. I just think they bet on the wrong horse this time and which is why they are investing heavily in lobbying to maintain their market position.

 

Quote

PHEVs are still growing in the EU in Q1 whereas EVs (despite huge government subsidies) were stumbling at the first hurdle.....and they will fall at the second hurdle unless someone sorts out a good network of fast chargers and the news from the US looks very poor on this item. The western press have had photos recently of vast parking lots filled with unsold Tesla's in the US, and unsold Chinese EV's in Brussels. 

The Western press do slant these things. I don't know anything about Teslas in the US - but their infrastructure is not great, plus their cars are not great either. But in the EU it is more complex than that. There is currently an issue in Europe of cars not being moved out of ports quickly enough (Brussels is the central entry point) but the shipping companies put this down to a shortage of trucks and drivers and it is affecting all imports, not just Chinese cars.  The Chinese, however, are at a disadvantage as hauliers prioritise regular clients, rather than new ones. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/496f3bfa-9f0c-4145-9024-188572a280fd

 

Pretty balanced article really. But others slant that news to say Chinese are dumping EVs or they are in port because they are not selling any. 

[vinny41]

Port, car industry and supply chain executives told the UK Financial Times a major factor in the congestion was that some Chinese electric vehicle (EV) manufacturers were not selling their cars in Europe as quickly as expected.

 

They also claimed ocean shipping delivery slots had been booked without ordering onward transport, which had led to lengthy dwell times at ports for vehicles that would normally be moved on to inland compounds and dealerships.

One source claimed there were EVs imported from China that had been sitting at European ports for up to 18 months.

“Nobody’s turning off production lines and making fewer cars at a time when sales are relatively static across Europe.”

https://theloadstar.com/vehicle-imports-clogging-up-terminals-at-european-auto-ports/

Who would want to buy a vehicle that has been exposed to the outside weather conditions  for up to 18 months

[vinny41]

It should be remembered  that the UK Government has an outstanding record when it comes to advising their citizens on the types of vehicles to buy 

2001 Gordon Brown slashed tax on diesel to entice drivers to switch from petrol

because diesels produce much lower carbon dioxide emissions than petrol cars. that's what we were told at the time

Dash for Diesel

Why officials in Labour government pushed 'dash for diesel'

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41985715

Most people I know once they are aware that the Government is promoting a product  they think once bitten twice shy

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Port, car industry and supply chain executives told the UK Financial Times a major factor in the congestion was that some Chinese electric vehicle (EV) manufacturers were not selling their cars in Europe as quickly as expected.

 

They also claimed ocean shipping delivery slots had been booked without ordering onward transport, which had led to lengthy dwell times at ports for vehicles that would normally be moved on to inland compounds and dealerships.

One source claimed there were EVs imported from China that had been sitting at European ports for up to 18 months.

“Nobody’s turning off production lines and making fewer cars at a time when sales are relatively static across Europe.”

https://theloadstar.com/vehicle-imports-clogging-up-terminals-at-european-auto-ports/

Who would want to buy a vehicle that has been exposed to the outside weather conditions  for up to 18 months

I suspect “up to 18 months” is really one or two cars that they couldn’t start.

[Madgee]

UK to flood Chinese market with Austin Princess powered by 300kWh battery | Top Gear

Love it! 

[vinny41]

Anyone looking to buy a one seater EV  Made in India

Power: 15kW AC Motor

Battery Pack: 10 kWh Lithium Ion

Range: 100 miles

https://www.austinmotorcompany.com/the-austin-arrow/

 

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Anyone looking to buy a one seater EV  Made in India

Power: 15kW AC Motor

Battery Pack: 10 kWh Lithium Ion

Range: 100 miles

https://www.austinmotorcompany.com/the-austin-arrow/

 

Saw this at the motor show last month. 

[transam]

This is funny, and probably right........🤭

 

 

[transam]

I never hear here about EV problems, but it seems they do get problems......🤔

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, transam said:

I never hear here about EV problems, but it seems they do get problems......🤔

 

 

You brought this up before and it was answered.  You seem to ignore the answers, and repeat yourself.

 

Since the market is new here, along with all the quality EV showing up, why would you expect them to have lots of problems.  They're not ICEV, so not that much can go wrong.  Not even wear or tear, as simply too new.

 

Along with to none JP, USA, EU badged cars showing up in numbers, keeping any problems down to a minimum.   Most issues, I believe have simply been OTA software tweaks, and to be expected since most are new and or upgraded models.   Pretty much a testing ground for new & upgraded models and until customer feedback is received after in use, then they can correct the minor annoyances.  Everything can't be sorted at the test track.

 

Also testament to the older ones that have been here since 2019 and before.  Though very low numbers.  

 

And why is biden, I assume, the thumbnail for that vid.  Another anti evil EV channel ... great.

[transam]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

You brought this up before and it was answered.  You seem to ignore the answers, and repeat yourself.

 

Since the market is new here, along with all the quality EV showing up, why would you expect them to have lots of problems.  They're not ICEV, so not that much can go wrong.  Not even wear or tear, as simply too new.

 

Along with to none JP, USA, EU badged cars showing up in numbers, keeping any problems down to a minimum.   Most issues, I believe have simply been OTA software tweaks, and to be expected since most are new and or upgraded models.   Pretty much a testing ground for new & upgraded models and until customer feedback is received after in use, then they can correct the minor annoyances.  Everything can't be sorted at the test track.

 

Also testament to the older ones that have been here since 2019 and before.  Though very low numbers.  

 

And why is biden, I assume, the thumbnail for that vid.  Another anti evil EV channel ... great.

I can do what I like, I provided a new video, but as usual, you go into a stomping fit. 🥴

[PJ71]

53 minutes ago, transam said:

I can do what I like, I provided a new video, but as usual, you go into a stomping fit. 🥴

You remind me of one other member, also with an insane amount of posts, that seems to give you the idea that you're never wrong.

 

Sad, but true.

[KhunLA]

EV vs ICEV ...  25 vs 1500+ per 100k vehicles 

source

[transam]

Read this article today about an EV owner not being a happy bunny because his tyres wore out in just 7,500 miles on his brand new 35,000 quid hot-hatch VW.......😱

 

I would probably be p_ssed off too, but should he complain when he is saving so much on fuel....?

Has any EV owner here suffered the same short life tyres.....?  🤔

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/electric-hatchback-heavy-jeep-needed-110200681.html

[Pib]

51 minutes ago, transam said:

Read this article today about an EV owner not being a happy bunny because his tyres wore out in just 7,500 miles on his brand new 35,000 quid hot-hatch VW.......😱

 

I would probably be p_ssed off too, but should he complain when he is saving so much on fuel....?

Has any EV owner here suffered the same short life tyres.....?  🤔

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/electric-hatchback-heavy-jeep-needed-110200681.html

 

Below are pictures of one of my factory tires on my BYD Atto EV which has 13,253Km (8,216 miles) on it....took the pictures a few minutes ago....still looks pretty much like new....all 4 tires on front and rear show the same amount of wear (i.e., very little).  And in the 2nd snapshot you'll see the wear indicator...these tires will probably last for 60 to 80K km.  

 

And as nice to know, under the BYD 8 yr/160K Km warranty they rotate the tires every 20K km for free during each 20K Km free warranty checkup.  I would prefer every 10K km like how I did on my Toyota Fortuner but my Atto has a pressure monitor system that the BYD dealership needs to remarry to each tire after a tire rotation so I'll just go with the BYD freebie tire rotation every 20K km vs the 10K km I do with my Fortuner.   This will also give me the chance to do a real world test to see if there is any significant advantage to rotating tires every 20K km vs 10K km....I'm sure there is some advantage every 10K km but it may not be that significant.

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

Below are pictures of one of my factory tires on my BYD Atto which has 13,253Km (8,216 miles) on it....took the pictures a few minutes ago....still looks pretty much like new....all 4 tires on front and rear show the same amount of wear (i.e., very little).  And in the 2nd snapshot you'll see the wear indicator...these tires will probably last for 60 to 80K km.  

 

And as nice to know, under the BYD 8 yr/160K Km warranty they rotate the tires every 20K km for free during each 20K Km free warranty checkup.  I would prefer every 10K km like how I did on my Toyota Fortuner but my Atto has a pressure monitor system that the BYD dealership needs to be remarried to each tire after a tire rotation so I'll just go with the BYD freebie tire rotation every 20K km vs the 10K km I do with my Fortuner.   This will also give me the chance to do a real world test to see if there is any significant advantage to rotating tires every 20K km vs 10K km....I'm sure there is some advantage but it may not be that significant.

 

 

 

Peeked at the link, and hard to believe at all.  So at 10k kms mark, check up?  and told to replace tires.  

 

His new car a 80 yrs old, and will now think hard before buying another EV in the future.

 

Too funny and people believe this crap. 

 

Mine have 27k kms on them, rotated twice already, I think, or at least once, and don't expected to change for quite some time.   No sooner than 50k kms, that's for sure.

 

If he stays posting his crap on ICE vs EV thread, I might give him another reprieve from ignore list.

[transam]

8 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Peeked at the link, and hard to believe at all.  So at 10k kms mark, check up?  and told to replace tires.  

 

His new car a 80 yrs old, and will now think hard before buying another EV in the future.

 

Too funny and people believe this crap. 

 

Mine have 27k kms on them, rotated twice already, I think, or at least once, and don't expected to change for quite some time.   No sooner than 50k kms, that's for sure.

 

If he stays posting his crap on ICE vs EV thread, I might give him another reprieve from ignore list.

Did you read the SAME chap saying he usually gets , was it, 35,000 miles out of a set of tyres.

Obviously not, you concentrate on his age.......But expected...🤔

[vinny41]

47 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Peeked at the link, and hard to believe at all.  So at 10k kms mark, check up?  and told to replace tires.  

 

His new car a 80 yrs old, and will now think hard before buying another EV in the future.

 

Too funny and people believe this crap. 

 

Mine have 27k kms on them, rotated twice already, I think, or at least once, and don't expected to change for quite some time.   No sooner than 50k kms, that's for sure.

 

If he stays posting his crap on ICE vs EV thread, I might give him another reprieve from ignore list.

In the article is does state

Tyre manufacturer Michelin has previously said that conventional tyres wear out around 20pc faster in an electric vehicle, while Goodyear said they can degrade as much as 50pc faster.

Last year, research by technology firm Epyx found that, on average, tyres fitted to EVs lasted 6,350 fewer miles than those on petrol or diesel cars. The first tyre change for electric cars takes place after an average of 17,985 miles, compared to 24,335 miles for petrol and diesel cars.

Department for Transport data from 2015 to 2018 showed that 46pc of electric car MOT failures were caused by tyres, compared to 32pc for petrol cars.

So is it the case that both Tyre manufacturers Michelin and Goodyear are incorrect when they state conventional tyres wear out around 20pc faster in an electric vehicle,while Goodyear said they can degrade as much as 50pc faster.

[KhunLA]

23 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

In the article is does state

Tyre manufacturer Michelin has previously said that conventional tyres wear out around 20pc faster in an electric vehicle, while Goodyear said they can degrade as much as 50pc faster.

Last year, research by technology firm Epyx found that, on average, tyres fitted to EVs lasted 6,350 fewer miles than those on petrol or diesel cars. The first tyre change for electric cars takes place after an average of 17,985 miles, compared to 24,335 miles for petrol and diesel cars.

Department for Transport data from 2015 to 2018 showed that 46pc of electric car MOT failures were caused by tyres, compared to 32pc for petrol cars.

So is it the case that both Tyre manufacturers Michelin and Goodyear are incorrect when they state conventional tyres wear out around 20pc faster in an electric vehicle,while Goodyear said they can degrade as much as 50pc faster.

One would expect heavier, better performance vehicles to go through tires a bit faster.  A bit of common sense.   But for a tire to need replacement at 10k kms.   Not buying it ... or certainly wouldn't.   If true, not surprised it's on a VW, as one of the least trustworthy manufactures out there.

[transam]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

One would expect heavier, better performance vehicles to go through tires a bit faster.  A bit of common sense.   But for a tire to need replacement at 10k kms.   Not buying it ... or certainly wouldn't.   If true, not surprised it's on a VW, as one of the least trustworthy manufactures out there.

What a stupid comment, VW is up there in the brand charts, just shows your ignorance in motoring subjects..................😂

Where is your MG in the brand and reliability charts........?...........🤭

 

https://brandirectory.com/rankings/automobiles/table

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2024-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds

[Fruit Trader]

38 minutes ago, transam said:

What a stupid comment, VW is up there in the brand charts, just shows your ignorance in motoring subjects..................😂

Where is your MG in the brand and reliability charts........?...........🤭

 

https://brandirectory.com/rankings/automobiles/table

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2024-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds

 

Your response might not be getting through, I believe the toys went flying across the room a few days ago and us unknowledgeables are on the ignore list.
 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

One would expect heavier, better performance vehicles to go through tires a bit faster.  A bit of common sense.   But for a tire to need replacement at 10k kms.   Not buying it ... or certainly wouldn't.   If true, not surprised it's on a VW, as one of the least trustworthy manufactures out there.

It seems VW UK issued a recall on Goodyear tires in 2023

Service Campaign/Recall Number 44T5
Commencement Date 11/05/2023
Service Campaign/Recall Description W-ID.3 Goodyear tyres

https://www.id3forums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2950

[JBChiangRai]

It’s normal for some supercars to get through tyres in 5,000 miles.

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

It seems VW UK issued a recall on Goodyear tires in 2023

Service Campaign/Recall Number 44T5
Commencement Date 11/05/2023
Service Campaign/Recall Description W-ID.3 Goodyear tyres

https://www.id3forums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2950

I guess he shouldn't have had to dish out £300  for a pair of tires, or asked for a refund ... 😎

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

Your response might not be getting through, I believe the toys went flying across the room a few days ago and us unknowledgeables are on the ignore list.

If he stops posted BS on EV in TH thread, may start reading his post.   VW can't be trusted, whether one of largest auto makers or not.  

[Ralf001]

On 7/3/2022 at 7:05 PM, Yellowtail said:

 The technology already exists, but the oil companies bought the patents and quashed it. 

 

Got a link to that ?

 

[In the jungle]

 

[In the jungle]

Just now, In the jungle said:

 

Well that is one way to keep prices low.