Earth rod is hot

[davidkas]

Hi,

I have just noticed that the area where my earth rod is is now very hot. 
Unfortunately it is under a tiled floor below where the safety cut is. It has been in place for several yeas with no problems. 
we recently had improved mains and a new meter. We also recently had earth rods installed for each of the 2 showers. 
Anyone any ideas? 
Many thanks in advance

Edited February 20, 2022 by davidkas
Change title

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Reversed live and neutral on a TNCS-MEN system will do this. Is your meter spinning around like a centrifuge?

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

19 minutes ago, davidkas said:

We also recently had earth rods installed for each of the 2 showers. 

W, w w w, w wait wait WHAT??!!!! You need to seek some professional electrical advice and fast. Stay out of the shower until this is sorted. I'm not joking, you seem to have serious issues here, stuff that could burn your house down, kill you in the shower, kill you when you switch on the washing machine etc etc. I wouldn't normally sound the alarm in a forum topic like this but I think you may really be in peril. Talk to me. . .

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[davidkas]

18 minutes ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

W, w w w, w wait wait WHAT??!!!! You need to seek some professional electrical advice and fast. Stay out of the shower until this is sorted. I'm not joking, you seem to have serious issues here, stuff that could burn your house down, kill you in the shower, kill you when you switch on the washing machine etc etc. I wouldn't normally sound the alarm in a forum topic like this but I think you may really be in peril. Talk to me. . .

 

 

 

It was a technician from the local PEA that did the work (on the side) and said that it was a requirement 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

He's wrong. It's hazardous, extremely so if you have LN reversed with a bonded NG. All ground must go through the CU to a single ground rod.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

... and FWIW, most of these PEA 'technicians' aren't actually PEA. They just did some grunt work for the PEA (digging holes), once, years and years ago.

 

Anyone that reads my posts in the electrical forum will know I don't joke around here. You may be in danger.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[davidkas]

Many thanks. 
I’ll disconnect the earth spikes in the morning 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

NO!!! This could kill you instantly if what I suspect is going on. Don't touch anything.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, davidkas said:

we recently had improved mains and a new meter. We also recently had earth rods installed for each of the 2 showers.

As has been mentioned if you have more than 1 earth point (you can have several rods if they are all connected together and only go to the main incoming box) you have just managed to install a quick way to be the star in the local crematorium.
 

There are extremely exciting and novel ways to kill yourself with separate earthing points in 1 building. That 2 of the earth points are in showers adds a whole new dimension to the dangers. That one point is getting hot guarantees that you have an extremely dangerous fault situation now.

 

[davidkas]

33 minutes ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

NO!!! This could kill you instantly if what I suspect is going on. Don't touch anything.

 

 

How about switching of the mains. Then disconnecting?

Is there a simple way to tell if the LN are reversed. I have a multi-meter and some basic electrical skills (not household)
I know that they have either been reversed and corrected or was originally good and has been reversed. 
I don’t know who to trust (rural community, small town electricians, although not much better in Bangkok)

How to find someone qualified and reputable.  

Edited February 20, 2022 by davidkas

[sometimewoodworker]

14 minutes ago, davidkas said:

How to find someone qualified and reputable.  

Knowing your general location may be useful.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

44 minutes ago, davidkas said:

I don’t know who to trust

No one. To be clear, if what you describe is accurate and things have been botched in the way I suspect they've been botched, you are in mortal danger, and I do not say this without careful thought. Switching off the mains at the CU will not help. Due to the nature of the system in Thailand, your neutral/ground may be directly connected to the PEA transformer phase, unfused, if things have been reversed in just the wrong place. Just pulling the ground wire from the rod could potentially expose you to a dangerous arc flash. Just the act of disconnecting the ground rod could raise any exposed metal surfaces up to mains voltage. It's a REALLY hazardous situation.

 

I'm really alarmed by this topic. . . Not in the least bit surprised, but alarmed anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[Crossy]

6 hours ago, davidkas said:

we recently had improved mains and a new meter.

 

As above, this statement immediately says "L-N reverse" to me.

 

There could be another reason for the hot rod, but neither of them is a DIY fix anyway.

 

Touch nothing!!!

 

Call your local PEA emergency number and get them out now!

 

Meanwhile turn off the main breaker. It won't make any difference to the hazard but will allow you to check if your meter is still clocking energy consumption and give you something else to show Mr PEA when he turns up.

 

Please let us know what happens.

 

[davidkas]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

Please let us know what happens.

OK more detail is needed.

location, Chainat province, small village near Noenkham.
Over the last year a lot of work has been done on the mains side of the system. A year ago the the regulator in the picture was installed. 
I then left Thailand and due to Covid restrictions only came back last month. 
While I was away electricians have been out 2 or three times culminating in the new mains connection. 
while I was away the regulator kept tripping because of low voltage, as low as 115 at times, hence new connection from PEA. 
Someone came along, said the connections were reversed “fixed it” and the regulator stopped tripping.

Also my family were getting shocks from the showers, that is when the ground earths were fitted, shocks stopped. 

I only discovered the “warm patch last night by chance when I moved something. 
Would the regulator read correctly if the LN reverse was on the mains side? I think the reversal must be from the regulator to the distribution board?

Switched off at the distribution box and the meter (15/45) did one revolution in 24 seconds, with the regulator switched off as well it took 2 min 20 seconds. 
 

Hope this helps diagnose my risk and the problem 

[Crossy]

Where is your N-E link in relation to the regulator? 

 

Is there an isolator / breaker in front of the regulator (between the regulator and meter)? Since you have a 30kVA unit I'm assuming it feeds the whole house.

 

You really, really need someone who knows what they are doing. But I suspect whoever determined that the connections were reversed and "fixed" it was mistaken and screwed things up ???? 

 

I still strongly suggest that you get PEA out, even if it's only to confirm that the supply entering your home is the correct polarity.

 

Again, this is a potentially lethal situation which could lead to any "earthed" metalwork becoming live to mains voltage with no way to isolate and no fuse between it and the village transformer.

 

[Crossy]

Do you have any test gear (cheap multimeter)?

 

I'm really loathe to suggest anything but you could try measuring the voltage of both your incoming lines (L and N) to a real earth (not your rods, a big screwdriver in the lawn). That would allow you to determine where the reversal actually is.

 

EDIT I don't know what your meter-constant is but ours is 400 revs/kWh. At about 2 revs per minute that's going to be 200 minutes per kWh or around 7kWh per day that's been warming up your floor (something like 900 Baht per month on your bill).

[davidkas]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

s there an isolator / breaker in front of the regulator (between the regulator and meter)? Since you have a 30kVA unit I'm assuming it feeds the whole house.

Hi Crossy 

Yes it feeds the whole house, yes I have a mid range multimeter. I can find some wire to extend the length of the leads. 

The on/off button is the one I used to switch of everything. 
the only contacts I have immediate access to are the ones in the picture.

there are other cables/connections (crimped wires) in the loft space. 
PEA just arrived, confirmed a fault now trying to find
 

[davidkas]

Thank you everyone for your help and concerns. 
PEA confirmed reversed LN and corrected. 
Discovered that the safety cut doesn’t work -next job- he didn’t seem concerned about the earths to the showers, he did do a stray voltage check on them though. Before voltage after reversal nothing. In addition the case of the distribution board was live or at least enough to give a powerful tingle. 
Looking forward to seeing my next meter reading. 

[Crossy]

10 minutes ago, davidkas said:

Looking forward to seeing my next meter reading. 

 

If it was PEA at fault you could ask for a refund based upon your observation of the meter.

 

Or maybe file that in the "too hard" box

 

 

[BritManToo]

11 hours ago, davidkas said:

Is there a simple way to tell if the LN are reversed. I have a multi-meter and some basic electrical skills (not household)

Poke a mains tester screwdriver (20bht) into any neutral pin on a socket.

If it lights up you have N/L reversed.

 

Very dangerous as none of your fuses are connected.

Common problem, my builder had my house wired like this.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by BritManToo

[davidkas]

30 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Or maybe file that in the "too hard" box

The PEA man in question was doing a “foreigner” 

I’ll put it in the grateful to be alive box ????

And lesson learned 

[Crossy]

As a final check, verify that there's no voltage between the regulator "neutral" terminals (they are usually connected together internally) and the "neutral" in the distribution box (or one of the screws on the DB case).

 

The regulator will work OK if it's incorrect polarity but it's best if it's actually right.

 

[Will B Good]

This is one scary thread to read....just as our house is approaching completion. 

 

I think I will try to locate an 'expert' to double check all the electrics!!!!

[Crossy]

9 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Poke a mains tester screwdriver (20bht) into any neutral pin on a socket.

If it lights up you have N/L reversed.

 

Very dangerous as none of your fuses are connected.

Common problem, my builder had my house wired like this.

 

Better if you use a meter to a known earth (my infamous big screwdriver in the lawn), but the neon does a quick check.

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Will B Good said:

This is one scary thread to read....just as our house is approaching completion. 

I think I will try to locate an 'expert' to double check all the electrics!!!!

 

Definitely, I had never come across an TNC-S that had L-N reversed and the sparks hadn't noticed. Until today!

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, davidkas said:

Discovered that the safety cut doesn’t work -next job-

 

It's not set to "Bypass" or "Direct" is it??

[VocalNeal]

Safe-T-Cut have guys all over the country.

[NorthernRyland]

59 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

This is one scary thread to read....just as our house is approaching completion. 

 

I think I will try to locate an 'expert' to double check all the electrics!!!!

off topic but I'm curious: did you resolve that noise problem that was driving you insane?

[Will B Good]

3 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

off topic but I'm curious: did you resolve that noise problem that was driving you insane?

Hi,

I've been back in the UK for three months. The wife 'claims' it has been quiet when she has visited.....but she would  say that to try and keep me calm.

 

Crunch time is approaching.....being fully tiled this week, windows and doors next......so we are getting closer to moving in......fingers crossed.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

7 hours ago, davidkas said:

Also my family were getting shocks from the showers, that is when the ground earths were fitted, shocks stopped. 

I only discovered the “warm patch last night by chance when I moved something.

I'm horrified by what I'm reading here. You should realise that you are all lucky to be alive.