Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[candide]

54 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Everything is all hunky dory in Russia. Not: Russian parliament passes first vote on war economy measures. 

 

The Russian government will be able to compel businesses to supply the military with goods and make their employees work overtime under two laws to support Moscow's war in Ukraine that were approved in an initial vote in parliament on Tuesday.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/duma-gives-first-approval-laws-moving-russia-towards-war-economy-2022-07-05/

The Russian government obviously does not think it will be over in 4-6 weeks....

[candide]

4 minutes ago, peterfranks said:

I have stopped following the developments in this war about a month ago, but can someone explain this to me.

 

Russia is destroying Ukraine completely, but if Ukraine targets something over the border with Russia, that is declared illegal. At least that is what Russia claims.

I'm confident that Ukraine owns weaponry that can destroy targets far inside Russia, maybe even as far as Moscow.

 

So why doesn't this happen, since this is a war between 2 countries?

Striking Russia would likely increase the support for this war by the Russian people. A support which is currently rather low (I.e. Russian soldiers were obviously not very motivated).

[peterfranks]

7 minutes ago, candide said:

Striking Russia would likely increase the support for this war by the Russian people. A support which is currently rather low (I.e. Russian soldiers were obviously not very motivated).

I see this different.

 

If someone burns down my house, I will burn down his house and that of all his relatives, as it will cost him a lot of money, money that he can't spend on burning my families houses, and may actually make him considering changing his mind.

 

Also when those oil storages just over the border exploded, Ukraine was accused of it.

 

Why accusations, as this is an ongoing war? I think there must be more to this.

Edited July 5, 2022 by peterfranks

[candide]

15 minutes ago, peterfranks said:

I see this different.

 

If someone burns down my house, I will burn down his house and that of all his relatives, as it will cost him a lot of money, money that he can't spend on burning my families houses, and may actually make him considering changing his mind.

 

Also when those oil storages just over the border exploded, Ukraine was accused of it.

 

Why accusations, as this is an ongoing war? I think there must be more to this.

For the reason I just explained. By accusing Ukraine (rightly or not), the Russian government hopes to rally Russian public opinion for this war.

The main distinctive advantage of Ukraine is that it's soldiers are motivated because they feel they defend their country. Russian soldiers don't.

On top of it, Putin would use it to justify committing more atrocious killings.

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I think when Russia gains control of all the Donbas they will have achieved their goal.

There is already pow swaps going on so they must be talking.

Rebuilding talks have started.

The Ukrainian president will start to consider the toll on his people and the bills adding up.

Add unrest around the world with more protests coming by the day with governments telling the people the war is causing the inflation.

 

It's not the right result,just my take on it.

Even if the fighting stops it won't be over.  Sanctions will not be lifted.  Europe will know better than to become dependent of Russia for energy or anything else.  Russia will continue its decline from second rate economy to third world.  Russia will become as dependent on China as Belarus is on Russia.

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, peterfranks said:

I have stopped following the developments in this war about a month ago, but can someone explain this to me.

 

Russia is destroying Ukraine completely, but if Ukraine targets something over the border with Russia, that is declared illegal. At least that is what Russia claims.

I'm confident that Ukraine owns weaponry that can destroy targets far inside Russia, maybe even as far as Moscow.

 

So why doesn't this happen, since this is a war between 2 countries?

On what grounds are you confident that "Ukraine owns weaponry that can destroy targets far inside Russia"? Don't you think that if Ukraine had such weapons they would have already used the to destroy, for example, Russian naval vessels docked at Sevastopol in Crimea?

[Kwasaki]

8 hours ago, peterfranks said:

I have stopped following the developments in this war about a month ago, but can someone explain this to me.

 

Russia is destroying Ukraine completely, but if Ukraine targets something over the border with Russia, that is declared illegal. At least that is what Russia claims.

I'm confident that Ukraine owns weaponry that can destroy targets far inside Russia, maybe even as far as Moscow.

 

So why doesn't this happen, since this is a war between 2 countries?

They may have weaponry that can reach into Russia but the US told Ukrainie not to fire into Russia with weapons supplied by them.

[Bkk Brian]

14 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I think when Russia gains control of all the Donbas they will have achieved their goal.

There is already pow swaps going on so they must be talking.

Rebuilding talks have started.

The Ukrainian president will start to consider the toll on his people and the bills adding up.

Add unrest around the world with more protests coming by the day with governments telling the people the war is causing the inflation.

 

It's not the right result,just my take on it.

Here's my take.

 

Puitn's goals were to take Kyiv within a few days, install a puppet regime, demilitarize, denazify, destroy Ukraine's national identity and as he himself put it in his Peter the Great Speech “wasn't taking anything, he was taking it back”, and that ”it is our responsibility also to take back and strengthen”. That’s how he sees his mission - to take back what once was claimed by Russia. It’s a recipe for years of war.

 

Those goals have not been met, his military was a failure, the Ukrainians resolve and bravery to fight for their homes no matter what and in the face of awful war crimes committed on them took him off guard, as did the unity of so many other countries in implementing the sanctions and massive amounts of aid to Ukraine.

 

He may well take a defensive break once Donbas is in his evil grasp but that's not through choice, that because his military is in tatters and needs to regroup and rearm. 

 

Ukraine will not be taking a break, they are not going to leave it like Crimea. That war began in 2014 and they weren't able to finish it then. They will finish it now and not leave it to their kids. 

 

Putins demands for a peace agreement as far as I know have not changed, as Ukraines have not changed some of which include reparation for the damage done in Ukraine, the handing over of all war criminals, immediate ceasefire with Russian troops withdrawing.

 

There is no easy way to predict how long this is going to take but 4 - 6 weeks is certainly not my estimate. Hopefully by the end of the year so long as all the military aid promised arrives and continues to do so.

[ballpoint]

16 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I think when Russia gains control of all the Donbas they will have achieved their goal.

There is already pow swaps going on so they must be talking.

Rebuilding talks have started.

The Ukrainian president will start to consider the toll on his people and the bills adding up.

Add unrest around the world with more protests coming by the day with governments telling the people the war is causing the inflation.

 

It's not the right result,just my take on it.

Peace in our time!

[Mavideol]

18 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Well it seems I cannot say on this thread how I see the Ukrainian  situation without being vilified. 

The whole true picture will come out in the end when ever that will be. 

The whole true picture already came out to everybody but you

[rudi49jr]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

The whole true picture already came out to everybody but you

Not true, a few other posters here still live in denial as well. 

[Kwasaki]

19 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Not true, a few other posters here still live in denial as well. 

What's that, that Ukrainians are on a hiding for nowt. 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Kwasaki

[rudi49jr]

22 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

What's that, that Ukrainians are on a hiding for nowt. 

 

Have no idea what you mean with that.
How is it, by the way, that sometimes you sound like a person with just a very basic understanding of the English language, and in other posts you sound almost like an Eton graduate?

[Kwasaki]

56 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Have no idea what you mean with that.
How is it, by the way, that sometimes you sound like a person with just a very basic understanding of the English language, and in other posts you sound almost like an Eton graduate?

As one of the few here that laugh at your post reply to me and the ones that laugh at my posts I see things differently to most of you being partially dyslectic and an IQ of nearly 140, I don't care what you think. 

 

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

As one of the few here that laugh at your post reply to me and the ones that laugh at my posts I see things differently to most of you being partially dyslectic and an IQ of nearly 140, I don't care what you think. 

 

And I don't care what other think either because I nearly have an IQ!

[coolcarer]

13 hours ago, heybruce said:

Even if the fighting stops it won't be over.  Sanctions will not be lifted.  Europe will know better than to become dependent of Russia for energy or anything else.  Russia will continue its decline from second rate economy to third world.  Russia will become as dependent on China as Belarus is on Russia.

I suspect if he will attempt to stop after Donbas and frame it that he is offering peace talks to stop the fighting and allow transit of grain. He’s Russian and a slime ball. He will be hoping this chess move will divide the western alliance. In reality that’s all it is, a chess move to take the bigger prize at a later date.

 

The trolls and propagandists will be jumping for joy saying it’s the west that are war mongering and not up for negotiations when anyone with an iq of 1 let alone genius level 140 amongst us can see it for what it really is.

 

There is only one way to stop this and that is with resolve and force until peace talks are called by Ukraine when they are in a much stronger position.

[rudi49jr]

Putin is recruiting prisoners as cannon fodder to fight for Russia amid shortage of frontline troops. Wagner is reported to be behind this recruitment drive.

 

So criminals are trying to get other criminals to fight their fight for them. How apt.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10984135/Putin-recruiting-prisoners-cannon-fodder-fight-Russia-Ukraine-amid-troop-shortages.html

[rudi49jr]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

As one of the few here that laugh at your post reply to me and the ones that laugh at my posts I see things differently to most of you being partially dyslectic and an IQ of nearly 140, I don't care what you think. 

 

I always get quite suspicious when people feel the need to mention their IQ…

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

As one of the few here that laugh at your post reply to me and the ones that laugh at my posts I see things differently to most of you being partially dyslectic and an IQ of nearly 140, I don't care what you think. 

 

Here's something to make you laugh, sheer satire but true that even a near genius level IQ should appreciate

 

7.02am Russia calls for efforts to protect international laws

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov urged world leaders to make an effort to protect international laws as "the world is evolving in a complicated manner".

 

12.12pm Pursuing Russia for war crimes could result in nuclear war, warns former president

Dmitry Medvedev, the former Russian president, invoked the possibility of nuclear war if the International Criminal Court (ICC) moves to punish Moscow for alleged crimes in Ukraine.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/07/06/russia-ukraine-latest-war-news-battle-donetsk-putin-nato/

[candide]

32 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Here's something to make you laugh, sheer satire but true that even a near genius level IQ should appreciate

 

7.02am Russia calls for efforts to protect international laws

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov urged world leaders to make an effort to protect international laws as "the world is evolving in a complicated manner".

 

12.12pm Pursuing Russia for war crimes could result in nuclear war, warns former president

Dmitry Medvedev, the former Russian president, invoked the possibility of nuclear war if the International Criminal Court (ICC) moves to punish Moscow for alleged crimes in Ukraine.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/07/06/russia-ukraine-latest-war-news-battle-donetsk-putin-nato/

So Russia is breaking international laws by invad8ng Ukraine, but calls for protecting international laws! ????

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, candide said:

So Russia is breaking international laws by invad8ng Ukraine, but calls for protecting international laws! ????

& threatening a nuclear war if international criminal laws are pursued against them????

[rudi49jr]

 

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

What's that, that Ukrainians are on a hiding for nowt. 

 

Russia wasted most of its precision munitions and best troops early in the war.  That's why it is now relying on WW II tactics of leveling cities with massive bombardments using unguided artillery.  Russia will continue to use this tactic since western sanctions will make it difficult to impossible for it to manufacture more precision weapons.

 

Ukraine used most of its Soviet era munitions, and much of the Soviet era munitions of former Warsaw Pact countries, defending itself against Russia's initial assault.  It is now transitioning to more advanced western weapons systems, but this will take time both to train Ukrainians on the use and maintenance of these weapons and to manufacture more of them.  Western nations normally keep enough of these weapons for their needs and some surplus, but not a huge surplus.  They will need time to manufacture more.

 

Russia will pause to rest and restock, but not long.  The longer Russia pauses the better prepared Ukraine will be when the fighting resumes.  When fighting resumes (assuming there is much of a perceptible pause) Russia will continue with leveling the ground in front of it with massive artillery then move in soldiers who will be mowed down by surviving front-line Ukrainian defenders.  Ukraine will use its more accurate western weapons to strike at Russian command, supply and communication centers behind the lines.  There will be great losses of life on both sides.

 

The war will be won, in the sense of negotiating peace from a stronger position, by whichever side endures the tremendous cost longest.  Once the war is over someone will have to rebuild the cities and infrastructure destroyed by Russia, and there must be some accounting of the unknown number of Ukrainians taken to unknown locations inside Russia.

 

The west should continue to support Ukraine as long as the Ukrainian people are will to fight.  The easier it is for Putin to present the end results as a victory, the easier it will be for Putin or the next Ivan the Great wannabe to justify another empire building war.

 

 

[candide]

25 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Russia wasted most of its precision munitions and best troops early in the war.  That's why it is now relying on WW II tactics of leveling cities with massive bombardments using unguided artillery.  Russia will continue to use this tactic since western sanctions will make it difficult to impossible for it to manufacture more precision weapons.

 

Ukraine used most of its Soviet era munitions, and much of the Soviet era munitions of former Warsaw Pact countries, defending itself against Russia's initial assault.  It is now transitioning to more advanced western weapons systems, but this will take time both to train Ukrainians on the use and maintenance of these weapons and to manufacture more of them.  Western nations normally keep enough of these weapons for their needs and some surplus, but not a huge surplus.  They will need time to manufacture more.

 

Russia will pause to rest and restock, but not long.  The longer Russia pauses the better prepared Ukraine will be when the fighting resumes.  When fighting resumes (assuming there is much of a perceptible pause) Russia will continue with leveling the ground in front of it with massive artillery then move in soldiers who will be mowed down by surviving front-line Ukrainian defenders.  Ukraine will use its more accurate western weapons to strike at Russian command, supply and communication centers behind the lines.  There will be great losses of life on both sides.

 

The war will be won, in the sense of negotiating peace from a stronger position, by whichever side endures the tremendous cost longest.  Once the war is over someone will have to rebuild the cities and infrastructure destroyed by Russia, and there must be some accounting of the unknown number of Ukrainians taken to unknown locations inside Russia.

 

The west should continue to support Ukraine as long as the Ukrainian people are will to fight.  The easier it is for Putin to present the end results as a victory, the easier it will be for Putin or the next Ivan the Great wannabe to justify another empire building war.

 

 

On top of it, even if a peace treaty is signed, it will be necessary to further arm Ukraine to make sure Putin won't breach it.

[LosLobo]

7 hours ago, candide said:

On top of it, even if a peace treaty is signed, it will be necessary to further arm Ukraine to make sure Putin won't breach it.

I suggest that any peace treaty with Russia would not be worth the paper it's written on.

 

For example:

 

'Under the Budapest Memorandum, signed on 5 December 1994, Ukraine exchanged nuclear weapons for pledges by the three powers (i.e. Russia, US & UK) “to respect the independence, sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and to refrain from the “threat or use of force” against the country. '

 

Would Russia have invaded Ukraine if Soviet nuclear weapons had remained on Ukrainian soil? | Feature from King's College London (kcl.ac.uk)

[Kwasaki]

12 hours ago, heybruce said:

Russia wasted most of its precision munitions and best troops early in the war.  That's why it is now relying on WW II tactics of leveling cities with massive bombardments using unguided artillery.  Russia will continue to use this tactic since western sanctions will make it difficult to impossible for it to manufacture more precision weapons.

 

Ukraine used most of its Soviet era munitions, and much of the Soviet era munitions of former Warsaw Pact countries, defending itself against Russia's initial assault.  It is now transitioning to more advanced western weapons systems, but this will take time both to train Ukrainians on the use and maintenance of these weapons and to manufacture more of them.  Western nations normally keep enough of these weapons for their needs and some surplus, but not a huge surplus.  They will need time to manufacture more.

 

Russia will pause to rest and restock, but not long.  The longer Russia pauses the better prepared Ukraine will be when the fighting resumes.  When fighting resumes (assuming there is much of a perceptible pause) Russia will continue with leveling the ground in front of it with massive artillery then move in soldiers who will be mowed down by surviving front-line Ukrainian defenders.  Ukraine will use its more accurate western weapons to strike at Russian command, supply and communication centers behind the lines.  There will be great losses of life on both sides.

 

The war will be won, in the sense of negotiating peace from a stronger position, by whichever side endures the tremendous cost longest.  Once the war is over someone will have to rebuild the cities and infrastructure destroyed by Russia, and there must be some accounting of the unknown number of Ukrainians taken to unknown locations inside Russia.

 

The west should continue to support Ukraine as long as the Ukrainian people are will to fight.  The easier it is for Putin to present the end results as a victory, the easier it will be for Putin or the next Ivan the Great wannabe to justify another empire building war.

 

Fair call. 

 

Sanctions doesn't reduce Russia's capability to product weapons they are one of the world's biggest weapon suppliers.

As regards to inferior weapons they are still effective and can be produced rapidly.

 

It takes time to train Ukraine soldiers to use advanced weaponry this needs to be addressed so that there can be more in the field it's a big problem for them. 

 

I don't see Russia pausing they have made enough mistakes. 

 

A negotiated peace will only be possible with Ukraine giving up the Russian gained territories.

Ukraine should think about that they wouldn't have to rebuild a great deal of mess that has pursued.

 

Agree the west should continue to support but at what cost and how long will it be before Ukraine is told enough is enough.

Hopefully the Russian population also will say enough is enough. 

 

[Rimmer]

Ukraine Disputes Russia’s Proofless Claim It Destroyed HIMARS Launchers

 

Russian claims that it destroyed two U.S.-provided High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, or HIMARS, in eastern Ukraine are not substantiated and Ukraine is outright calling them a lie.

 

“High-precision air-based missiles have destroyed 2 US-made HIMARS multiple-launch rocket launchers and 2 ammunition depots near Malotaranovka in Donetsk People's Republic,” the Russian Ministry of Defense said Wednesday morning on its Telegram channel.

 

As 'proof' it distributed a video that shows a Russian aircraft firing what appears to be missiles at a target on the ground. The video then depicts a plume after an impact along a treed area seen through an infrared imager. Another infrared video shows missiles of some sort striking an area near an industrial park or farm followed by a plume. It then cuts to what appears to be drone video of the moment of impact in a different tree-lined area.

 

Full story https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-disputes-russias-proofless-claim-it-destroyed-himars-launchers

 

 

[transam]

Interesting report from a reliable source, Russian executions....

 

 

[jvs]

13 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

A negotiated peace will only be possible with Ukraine giving up the Russian gained territories.

Ukraine should think about that they wouldn't have to rebuild a great deal of mess that has pursued.

I do not agree at all!

If this would happen it would mean the bully(Russia) wins and what is going to stop

them from doing it again?

Ukraine should not stop fighting until all the territory has been taken back and that

should include Crimea .

Remember the Ukrainian army is fighting the battle for Nato and they are the only ones getting damaged.

The Nato people should not stop supporting the Ukraine until Russia pulls back.

Yes it costs a lot of money but for the rest of Europe it is and will remain cheaper then fighting the Russians in other(their own) countries.

I think Russia already understand very well that if they would attack any Nato member it would be game over for Putin.

They talk a lot but imo they know really well themselves it is only talk and preaching to the choir.

[Bkk Brian]

28 minutes ago, Rimmer said:

Ukraine Disputes Russia’s Proofless Claim It Destroyed HIMARS Launchers

 

Russian claims that it destroyed two U.S.-provided High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, or HIMARS, in eastern Ukraine are not substantiated and Ukraine is outright calling them a lie.

 

“High-precision air-based missiles have destroyed 2 US-made HIMARS multiple-launch rocket launchers and 2 ammunition depots near Malotaranovka in Donetsk People's Republic,” the Russian Ministry of Defense said Wednesday morning on its Telegram channel.

 

As 'proof' it distributed a video that shows a Russian aircraft firing what appears to be missiles at a target on the ground. The video then depicts a plume after an impact along a treed area seen through an infrared imager. Another infrared video shows missiles of some sort striking an area near an industrial park or farm followed by a plume. It then cuts to what appears to be drone video of the moment of impact in a different tree-lined area.

 

Full story https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-disputes-russias-proofless-claim-it-destroyed-himars-launchers

 

 

Here's those HIMARS's in action doing there thing, great footage of them blowing up a Russian ammunition storage deep inside Donetsk.

 

CNN gets access to secret location of US artillery being used in Ukraine