Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[BarraMarra]

2 hours ago, plus7 said:

You overestimate Putin's role in it and its importance. Ideology is at least a book. Z is just a symbol of the war, but not the ideology. Symbolism.

 

I admit cases of tortures, accidental and criminal death of civilians (like robbery, extorting money) not only from russian soldiers. But I deny its mass , organized character and especially its genocidal nature.

Besides, it is the war, a sign of torture could be a wound.

Imagine a simple case: soldiers captured an enemy soldier, surely he will be tied. Then a shell explodes and kill them all. One of corpses will have tied hands, wounds. If slightly blur vision,  it can be called a victim of a torture.

Finally, if they found evidences, let them continue with the investigation and find the suspected.

 

Do you mean like the Swastika.

[placeholder]

 

 

52 minutes ago, plus7 said:

I was happy to see that the article doesn't call to kill Ukrainians.

 

 

 

 

It doesn't call to kill ukranians? Really?

“A significant part of the masses of the people, who are passive Nazis, are accomplices to Nazism,” he writes. Ukraine’s elites “must be liquidated as they cannot be reeducated and the social swamp that backed them must be subject to the terror of war and made to pay for their crimes.”

What do you think liquidated means in this context? That they be given a bubble bath?

Edited October 18, 2022 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

"We’ll kill as many as we have to: 1 million, 5 million, or exterminate all of you.”

 

The Russian Federation’s Ongoing Aggression Against Ukraine

As we take stock of the horrific attacks against civilian infrastructure in Ukraine over the course of the last week, we must never lose sight of the fact that the Kremlin’s aim from the very beginning of this war – in fact before it even launched the war on February 24 of this year – was to eliminate democratic Ukraine as an independent state with its own national identity and replace it with a Russian-imposed one.  This is the purpose of Russia’s “filtration” operations, the essence of its so-called “de-Nazification” goals, and the rationale for its re-education policies in the areas of Ukraine it temporarily controls. 

 

One of Russia’s proxy officials in the so-called “DNR,” Pavel Gubarev, has articulated this aim rather succinctly.  Addressing the people of Ukraine in a video posted this week, he said “We aren’t coming to kill you, but to convince you.  But if you don’t want to be convinced, we’ll kill you.  We’ll kill as many as we have to: 1 million, 5 million, or exterminate all of you.”

https://osce.usmission.gov/the-russian-federations-ongoing-aggression-against-ukraine-27/

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Unfortunately, there isn’t a link to the video in question. 
 

I watched another video which claims that Putin said he did not intend to occupy Ukraine. Unfortunately, there was no link to that video either.

 

So I guess that cancels out both videos.

No, just cancels out yours

 

 

[Gweiloman]

37 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No, just cancels out yours

 

 

DNR = Donetsk Peoples Republic. Not the same as all of Ukraine which is what you tried to imply.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

DNR = Donetsk Peoples Republic. Not the same as all of Ukraine which is what you tried to imply.

I take it you can read English? 

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

One of Russia’s proxy officials in the so-called “DNR,” Pavel Gubarev, has articulated this aim rather succinctly.  Addressing the people of Ukraine in a video posted this week, he said “We aren’t coming to kill you, but to convince you.  But if you don’t want to be convinced, we’ll kill you.  We’ll kill as many as we have to: 1 million, 5 million, or exterminate all of you.”

https://osce.usmission.gov/the-russian-federations-ongoing-aggression-against-ukraine-27/

I also take it the link to the vid you watched of Putin is still non existent?

Edited October 18, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

33 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

No idea what you are trying to say.

Your explication of the origins of the swastika.

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

The fact that other countries have been imperialists is irrelevant to the case. I understand Russia was not happy, but it's not a reason to start a war.

 

I can agree with this statement. It’s the double standards and hypocrisy that is so nauseating.

Why?  Is it because Russia has long been an imperialist nation and is now trying to expand the Russian empire?

[Scott]

Troll posts and unsubstantiated claims removed.  

 

[Jingthing]

8 hours ago, placeholder said:

Sure it's "you and your friends igniting hate and doing the propaganda".

 

Russia’s Ukraine Propaganda Has Turned Fully Genocidal

A more recent RIA Novosti op-ed by Timofey Sergeytsev describes the planned extermination of an entire nation in a matter-of-fact manner.... “A significant part of the masses of the people, who are passive Nazis, are accomplices to Nazism,” he writes. Ukraine’s elites “must be liquidated as they cannot be reeducated and the social swamp that backed them must be subject to the terror of war and made to pay for their crimes.”

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/04/09/russia-putin-propaganda-ukraine-war-crimes-atrocities/

 

RIA Novosti (Russian: РИА Новости), sometimes referred to as RIAN (РИАН) or RIA (РИА) is a Russian state-owned domestic news agency. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIA_Novosti

 

 

About Putin's genocidal intentions towards ALL of Ukraine which were his original war goals, history teaches us when such men tell you what they want to do, BELIEVE THEM! 

 

Opinion | Putin’s Genocidal War - POLITICO

Opinion | Putin’s Genocidal War

The West cannot allow the attempted destruction of the Ukrainian people and their state to succeed.

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s attack on Ukraine represents the first interstate war in modern times where the stakes are both the survival of a state and an entire nation. In the 20th and 21st centuries, major wars and conflicts have often threatened the sovereignty of states or the survival of stateless peoples and national minorities. But this war is unprecedented in putting both at risk.

 

This is why "negotiation" land for peace will not work.

 

So let's say Ukraine concedes some land and there is a pause for months or years. Who will maintain that status quo? As long as Putin or Putinista types or worse are in power in Russia, they will only wait until they can go in again. If Russia takes it's stolen land just a little bit further towards Odessa and beyond, then Ukraine would be landlocked and Russia could then easily  crush it. 

 

The only solution for Ukraine is a very decisive military win.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Jingthing

[stevenl]

51 minutes ago, plus7 said:

I'm explaining, not justifying, this is different. Many of you get misinformation. For example, when a BBC reporter chooses misinformation as the source of its report.

 

About tortures and executions:

Tortures on the war often happens, unfortunately. On both sides! Some Ukraininans soldiers may lost their families, under drugs, or because there are some sadists among them, because they need to get tactical info quickly. Russian soldiers, too, may lost their families, under drugs, or because there are some sadists among them, because they need to get tactical info quickly.

In the later case both sides probably prefer to fly to Cuban, Guantanamo where it is allowed, but have no time.

Tortures on the war simply exist, no matter if we want it or not (me (probably you too) - not).

 

Recently UN commission published a report where confirmed only two cases of ukrainians torturing russians  https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/reports/independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-note-secretary-general

As well as executions (shot in head) may happen from both sides.

If to generalize, on both sides fighting same people.

 

About rapes:

Children ombudesman was sacked, because it was found that she made up all her shocking stories about rapes:

https://voxukraine.org/en/false-liudmila-denisova-admitted-to-lying-about-rapes-committed-against-ukrainians-by-russian-occupiers/

https://ukranews.com/en/news/865433-she-made-up-stories-about-rape-for-victory-of-ukraine-media-found-out-why-denisova-was-dismissed

 

I could imagine how  westerns were shocked seeing a tv report from more or less credible source repeating stores after this ombudesman (a woman actually). Admittedly, single cases of rapes happen, unfortunately, but they can be from both sides and not en-masse.
 

I can't stand this Russian propaganda with lie after lie anymore. Because that's all your posts are.

Done with you.

[Bkk Brian]

????Not long to go now, even Putin's new Ukraine General speaking out about Kherson.

 

Ukraine war: Russia admits Kherson 'tense' under shelling

The commander of Russian forces in Ukraine says the situation in the southern city of Kherson is "difficult" and residents are to be evacuated, his rare admission of big problems was echoed by a top local official.

Russian-installed regional official Kirill Stremousov warned Kherson residents that "in the very near future" Ukrainian troops would launch an assault on the city.

"Please take my words seriously - I'm talking about evacuating as quickly as possible," he said on the Telegram messaging service, he added that people on the River Dnieper's west bank (called Dnipro in Ukraine) were most at risk.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63309095

Edited October 19, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, plus7 said:

Where they are? So far, may this Commissioner Jasminka Džumhur just repeating ex-ombudesman ?

Child rape happened even in peaceful Ukraine without war. Will you deny?

I'm sure it happen in your country without any war.

 

Read the report and the witness statements, I can't do that for you. Please do not try to justify war crimes on a mass scale.

[coolcarer]

Oooops, oh well, next please HIMARS are hungry

 

Russia lost its most advanced air defense system in Ukraine
Russia’s most advanced surface-to-air missile system has been knocked out during recent fighting in Ukraine.
The fact that this advanced air defense system was participating in combat in Ukraine is somewhat surprising. Apparently, the S-400 system defended Russian troops in the Kherson region, in southern Ukraine.
It is designed to destroy strategic and tactical aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles and hypersonic weapons and can also be used against ground installations.
https://defence-blog.com/russia-lost-its-most-advanced-air-defense-system-in-ukraine/

Edited October 19, 2022 by coolcarer

[Rimmer]

Bickering, off topic and troll posts and replies that have deflected the topic have been removed the topic is about:

 

Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

 

and what is happening on a daily basis with respect to the occupation of Ukraine by Russian forces

 

 

[placeholder]

Here's something from the latest UNR report that  shows just how vile the Russian military is:

 

 "While during the reporting period, HRMMU enjoyed unimpeded access to places of internment for prisoners of war in territory controlled by the Government of Ukraine, it was not granted confidential access to any place of internment for prisoners of war in the Russian Federation or territory controlled by Russian armed forces and affiliated armed groups. However, HRMMU found that in the vast majority of documented cases, Ukrainian prisoners of war were subjected to torture or cruel and degrading treatment by the detaining power. HRMMU also documented the death of two Ukrainian servicemen as a result of torture."

https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/un-human-rights-reports-dire-human-rights-situation-seven-months-after-start-russian-federation-wide-scale-armed-attack-ukraine-enuk

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, plus7 said:

You must not read your own links ....

I told you, I opened your page and it only contained "Commissioner X said ..."

I followed the links on this, found that 23 cases of all kinds of crime altogather on all war on both territories. That woman sex trafficed all over the world.

What EXACTLY are you referring to?

 

If others are interested. Number of child rapes in UK without any war: over 40 thousands in 2016-2017

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_United_Kingdom

In USA 58,000 cases in 2020 without russian presense

https://americanspcc.org/child-maltreatment-statistics/

 

How about this report from the UN's Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine?

 

UN Commission has found an array of war crimes, violations of human rights and international humanitarian law have been committed in Ukraine

The Commission documented attacks where explosive weapons were used indiscriminately in populated areas that were under attack by Russian armed forces.

 

There are also examples of both parties to the armed conflict, although to different degrees, failing to protect civilians or civilian objects against the effects of attacks, by locating military objects and forces within or near densely populated areas.

Russian armed forces are responsible for the vast majority of the violations identified, including war crimes.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/un-commission-has-found-array-war-crimes-violations-human-rights-and

 

U.N. experts find that war crimes have been committed in Ukraine.

Russian soldiers have raped and tortured children in Ukraine, a United Nations-appointed panel of independent legal experts said in a damning statement on Friday that concluded war crimes had been committed in the conflict.

A three-person Commission of Inquiry set up in April to investigate the conduct of hostilities in four areas of Ukraine laid out the graphic allegations in an unusually hard-hitting, 11-minute statement to the U.N Human Rights Council in Geneva.

“The commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined,” the panel’s chairman, Erik Mose, told the council.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/world/europe/russia-ukraine-war-crimes-united-nations.html

 

Does that tell you anything that the commission found that the vast majority of violations were committed by the Russians? That the committee found evidence for only 2 war crimes committed by the Ukrainians?

[plus7]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How about this report from the UN's Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine?

 

UN Commission has found an array of war crimes, violations of human rights and international humanitarian law have been committed in Ukraine

Thank you for your reply.

I found the full report where they described several sex crimes. It is indeed terrifying. Those who did this must be prosecuted. Like with every case elsewhere.

But I deny mass character and its genocidal nature. It is done by single criminals.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, plus7 said:

Thank you for your reply.

I found the full report where they described several sex crimes. It is indeed terrifying. Those who did this must be prosecuted. Like with every case elsewhere.

But I deny mass character and its genocidal nature. It is done by single criminals.

I agree with you about mass character. Blanket characterizations of Russians is vicious nonsense although I can see why the Ukrainians might be susceptible to it. Although, if so, apparently they don't take it out on Russian POWs. What  the vile behavior of Russian troops shows at best is how poor the command structure is in the Russian military. At worst, how such violence is encouraged.

[plus7]

Just now, placeholder said:

At worst, how such violence is encouraged.

Thank you for your agreement. It is important to me.

It is not encouraged by russians. Russians encorage being brave, being smart tactican....
However, I think some battle ground commanders who are lacking authority or afraid of revenge may "close eyes" on those crimes. Like on any other war.

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, plus7 said:

Thank you for your agreement. It is important to me.

It is not encouraged by russians. Russians encorage being brave, being smart tactican....
However, I think some battle ground commanders who are lacking authority or afraid of revenge may "close eyes" on those crimes. Like on any other war.

 

No, the Russian military does not encourage being smart tacticians. They don't encourage initiative on the part of their soldiers at all.  They prefer keeping them ignorant. We know that because Russian soldiers reported not even being told they were invading Ukraine but rather that they were on an exercise. And of course the massive Russian failures testify to their lack of tactical sense. One of their big problems is the lack of NCOs which forces higher ranking officers to the front.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, plus7 said:

However, I think some battle ground commanders who are lacking authority or afraid of revenge may "close eyes" on those crimes. Like on any other war.

 

I don't what you mean by any other war unless you mean like any other war waged by Russian forces. As the commission pointed out, the vast majority of violations were committed by the Russians. 

[BarraMarra]

A question to our members. Some appeasers on here are questioning holding talks to end the War between Ukrainian Forces and Russian Forces. My question is Would you sit around and talk to a liar? or who you know cannot be trusted?.

[plus7]

2 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

A question to our members. Some appeasers on here are questioning holding talks to end the War between Ukrainian Forces and Russian Forces. My question is Would you sit around and talk to a liar? or who you know cannot be trusted?.

I think you actually mean me. So I dare to reply: my presence is this topic was caused by YOUR direct question to me.

If you call me a liar, pls explain where I lied.

[Bkk Brian]

8 month in now to the illegal invasion and Russian forces show no signs of improvement and a worsening situation, latest UK Defense update

 

"Eight months into the invasion, major elements of Russia’s military leadership are increasingly dysfunctional. At the tactical level, there is almost certainly a worsening shortage of capable Russian junior officers to organise and lead newly mobilised reservists.

 

Poor lower-level leadership is likely worsening the low morale and poor unit cohesion in many parts of the Russian force.

 

Four of the five generals with direct operational command of elements of the invasion in February 2022 have now been dismissed. Their replacements have so far done little to improve Russia’s battlefield performance.

 

The lack of command continuity will likely be more disruptive than in a Western military because under Russian doctrine the development of plans sits largely with the commander personally, rather than as a collective effort across a broader staff."

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1582598944600731651

 

[BarraMarra]

I will Answer you Plus7. I asked MEMBERS not Member the Question. Maybe you have not understood the question I asked all members not an individual.

[rudi49jr]

Russian forces tortured Izium detainees. Survivors describe beatings, electric shocks and waterboarding. 

“The cruel violence and abuse in Izium were not random incidents,” said Belkis Wille, senior crisis and conflict researcher at Human Rights Watch. “Multiple victims shared credible accounts with us of similar experiences of torture during interrogation in facilities under the control of Russian forces and their subordinates, indicating this treatment was part of a policy and plan.”

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/19/ukraine-russian-forces-tortured-izium-detainees
 

 

[LosLobo]

1 hour ago, coolcarer said:

Oooops, oh well, next please HIMARS are hungry

 

Russia lost its most advanced air defense system in Ukraine
Russia’s most advanced surface-to-air missile system has been knocked out during recent fighting in Ukraine.
The fact that this advanced air defense system was participating in combat in Ukraine is somewhat surprising. Apparently, the S-400 system defended Russian troops in the Kherson region, in southern Ukraine.
It is designed to destroy strategic and tactical aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles and hypersonic weapons and can also be used against ground installations.
https://defence-blog.com/russia-lost-its-most-advanced-air-defense-system-in-ukraine/

The S-400 Air Defence Missile System costing USD 300 million apiece wasn't very successful against a little 100k HiMARS missile.

 

I would suggest that replacing this high-tech behemoth might be difficult now with the shortage of western chips and hardware.

 

This Russians had high expectations for export of this baby. now proven to be a dud against western technology.

 

This is obviously a win/win for Ukraine against Russian not only militarily but also economically.

 

[placeholder]

38 minutes ago, plus7 said:

Maybe majority by Russians, I don't argue.

About "any war", just what I remember:  In Vietnam war there was an incident where a US battalion started to kill and destroy all the village with all its inhabitants. One guy, a helicopter pilot, if I'm not mistaken, noticed it, tried to stop, but in vain. Later, he reported it and under public pressure things started to move on. To make long story short, only one man appeared in court, was judged, but soon released.

This is the example of "military brotherhood", you know the saying "He is an <deleted>, but he is our <deleted>" .

Commanders tend to cover each other.

Not just a majority. A "vast majority."  And when you couple that with the fact that the Russians do not allow independent inspections of their POW camps whereas the Ukrainians do, it's clear that attempting to generalize the situation into "everyone does it" is essentially a falsehood. Brutality is deeply woven into Russian military culture.

Edited October 19, 2022 by placeholder

[rudi49jr]

29 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

A question to our members. Some appeasers on here are questioning holding talks to end the War between Ukrainian Forces and Russian Forces. My question is Would you sit around and talk to a liar? or who you know cannot be trusted?.

 

24 minutes ago, plus7 said:

I think you actually mean me. So I dare to reply: my presence is this topic was caused by YOUR direct question to me.

If you call me a liar, pls explain where I lied.

Read his post. BarraMarra didn’t call you a liar, he said that you can not negotiate with liars who can not be trusted, i.e. the Russian warmongers.