Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Jingthing]

25 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Overwhelming majority of Ukrainians believe authorities won't make compromise with Russia – KIIS

 "the absolute majority (84%) of Ukrainians still believe that the government is not going to and will not make unacceptable compromises with Russia (in September it was 87%).

This is evidenced by the results of an opinion poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) on December 4-27, 2022 and their comparison with the same survey conducted in September of the same year."

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/882939.html

Definitely puts a massive amount of pressure on Zelensky as the Kremlin isn't close to surrender. 

[candide]

1 hour ago, rudi49jr said:

Freedom comes with a price. But the US and EU are getting their money’s worth:
 

https://www.csis.org/analysis/united-states-aid-ukraine-investment-whose-benefits-greatly-exceed-its-cost

Very interesting article which covers all key issues (therefore It's long).

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Overwhelming majority of Ukrainians believe authorities won't make compromise with Russia – KIIS

 "the absolute majority (84%) of Ukrainians still believe that the government is not going to and will not make unacceptable compromises with Russia (in September it was 87%).

This is evidenced by the results of an opinion poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) on December 4-27, 2022 and their comparison with the same survey conducted in September of the same year."

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/882939.html

For those capable of grasping the big picture, these three sentences give a summary:

 

"Much of this rising U.S. opposition to continuing aid to Ukraine does, however, come from only considering its cost and ignoring the strategic benefits it provides to the U.S. It is developing because far too much of the reporting on the Ukraine war ignores the fact that the U.S. has already obtained major strategic benefits from aiding the Ukraine, and that such aid it is one of the best investments the U.S. can make in competing with Putin’s Russia and in advancing its own security."

 

"Focusing on the price tag of aid. instead of the value of what it buys, ignores the fact that the war in Ukraine has become the equivalent of a proxy war with Russia, and a war that can be fought without any U.S. military casualties, that unites most of the world’s democracies behind a common cause, that deeply punishes Russia for its act of aggression and strengthens every aspect of deterrence."

 

There is much else in this article worth reading, but of special note is that it spells out the obvious; Putin won't agree to a reasonable peace treaty with Ukraine if Ukraine is negotiating from a position of weakness.  In order to restore stability to Europe and the world, Putin's aggression must not be rewarded.  That means Ukraine must win.

 

It is tragic that Ukraine is the only country paying in blood as well as treasure, but that is unavoidable without broadening the war.  Ukraine is doing a great service to democratic nations but also to nations that might not be democratic but don't want to be bullied by Russia. Ukraine should be supported as much as necessary.

[jvs]

42 minutes ago, heybruce said:

For those capable of grasping the big picture, these three sentences give a summary:

 

"Much of this rising U.S. opposition to continuing aid to Ukraine does, however, come from only considering its cost and ignoring the strategic benefits it provides to the U.S. It is developing because far too much of the reporting on the Ukraine war ignores the fact that the U.S. has already obtained major strategic benefits from aiding the Ukraine, and that such aid it is one of the best investments the U.S. can make in competing with Putin’s Russia and in advancing its own security."

 

"Focusing on the price tag of aid. instead of the value of what it buys, ignores the fact that the war in Ukraine has become the equivalent of a proxy war with Russia, and a war that can be fought without any U.S. military casualties, that unites most of the world’s democracies behind a common cause, that deeply punishes Russia for its act of aggression and strengthens every aspect of deterrence."

 

There is much else in this article worth reading, but of special note is that it spells out the obvious; Putin won't agree to a reasonable peace treaty with Ukraine if Ukraine is negotiating from a position of weakness.  In order to restore stability to Europe and the world, Putin's aggression must not be rewarded.  That means Ukraine must win.

 

It is tragic that Ukraine is the only country paying in blood as well as treasure, but that is unavoidable without broadening the war.  Ukraine is doing a great service to democratic nations but also to nations that might not be democratic but don't want to be bullied by Russia. Ukraine should be supported as much as necessary.

Totally agree!

 

[balo]

The only thing that can make Putin regret this war is to fire a couple of missiles into Russian territory. Let the Russians themselves feel what's it like to experience constant terror.    

[rudi49jr]

5 minutes ago, balo said:

The only thing that can make Putin regret this war is to fire a couple of missiles into Russian territory. Let the Russians themselves feel what's it like to experience constant terror.    

It would probably take more than just a couple of missiles. Other than that I totally agree with you.

[Social Media]

 

[rudi49jr]

2 hours ago, Black Ops said:

 

Was just about to post the exact same link. This would be a game changer, especially if other countries followed this example. Like Germany is apparently considering supplying Ukraine with Leopard II tanks. Hopefully Ukraine will get the tanks they need to kick the Russians out.

[Salerno]

5 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Like Germany is apparently considering supplying Ukraine with Leopard II tanks.

Are they actually thinking of sending some? Last I saw was they where getting pressured as Poland and Finland wanted to supply them (can't be done without Germany giving the green light).

[tgw]

18 minutes ago, Salerno said:

Are they actually thinking of sending some? Last I saw was they where getting pressured as Poland and Finland wanted to supply them (can't be done without Germany giving the green light).

no, they aren't.
they will be sending some Marder though.

[Salerno]

3 minutes ago, tgw said:

no, they aren't.
they will be sending some Marder though.

Ah well, every bit helps, I hope they at least green light Finland and Poland.

[tgw]

6 hours ago, balo said:

The only thing that can make Putin regret this war is to fire a couple of missiles into Russian territory. Let the Russians themselves feel what's it like to experience constant terror.    

Ukraine already bombarded Russian airbases near Saratov and Ryazan, but nobody in Russia got to see the damage, nor would such a bombardment get much coverage in Ruzzian media.

 

I thought about Ukraine bombarding some symbolic Ruzzian targets such as Putin's "Patriot Park" or even exploding one of the Kremlin's towers, but I recently watched some interviews of Ruzzian prisoners on this Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@LvivMedia/videos

Most Ruzzian POW interviewed there are of incredibly "thick" mind, they avoid having a personal opinion on important issues by "not engaging in politics" and looking only after themselves and their family (that's the typical Russian head-down mindset).

After viewing these interviews, among them are officers and most are of younger age, I'm not optimistic about a revolution happening in Ruzzia. I also hear from friends/relatives that older people only watch Ruzzian government channels all day, NTV, TNT, Rossiya-1, RTR, etc. and they mostly believe the bullcrap. Of the interviewees, most want their motherland to win, even if they are unsure if Putin was right to attack Ukraine.

 

So I'm not sure what effect exploding a Kremlin tower would have on the public, probably just enraging some of them and not enabling a revolution at all.

 

The interviewees are cattle.

They obviously would need leaders to front the revolution. But Putin has been eliminating a lot of people.

When watching these interviews, I understood what's happening: Putin is eliminating dissident elites who have money and power and oppose the war and Putin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_businessmen_suspicious_deaths
(that's probably just the tip of an enormous iceberg of corpses and people sent to prison/gulag/retirement)

 

Did you know there was a new advent calendar in Russia ? Every time a window is opened, an oligarch falls out.

 

Jokes aside, I don't see Ruzzia giving in, even if Putin dies.

Peace for Ukraine can only come from the battlefield, and the world needs to put a cordon sanitaire around Ruzzia.

These Youtube Channels also help to understand Ruzzians, how they live and their access to information:

https://www.youtube.com/@1420channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaNfHBihSUqcUBpvHx-rwYw

 

and frankly, why would they care about anything, they aren't world citizens, they aren't even Ruzzian citizens (citizen as understood by Socrates), because they don't participate in politics. They are just Putin's cattle.

Edited January 9, 2023 by tgw

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

Is that all you got? Like arguing with a six-year-old.

I agree with that, but other way.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

For those capable of grasping the big picture, these three sentences give a summary:

 

"Much of this rising U.S. opposition to continuing aid to Ukraine does, however, come from only considering its cost and ignoring the strategic benefits it provides to the U.S. It is developing because far too much of the reporting on the Ukraine war ignores the fact that the U.S. has already obtained major strategic benefits from aiding the Ukraine, and that such aid it is one of the best investments the U.S. can make in competing with Putin’s Russia and in advancing its own security."

 

"Focusing on the price tag of aid. instead of the value of what it buys, ignores the fact that the war in Ukraine has become the equivalent of a proxy war with Russia, and a war that can be fought without any U.S. military casualties, that unites most of the world’s democracies behind a common cause, that deeply punishes Russia for its act of aggression and strengthens every aspect of deterrence."

 

There is much else in this article worth reading, but of special note is that it spells out the obvious; Putin won't agree to a reasonable peace treaty with Ukraine if Ukraine is negotiating from a position of weakness.  In order to restore stability to Europe and the world, Putin's aggression must not be rewarded.  That means Ukraine must win.

 

It is tragic that Ukraine is the only country paying in blood as well as treasure, but that is unavoidable without broadening the war.  Ukraine is doing a great service to democratic nations but also to nations that might not be democratic but don't want to be bullied by Russia. Ukraine should be supported as much as necessary.

Ah, so it's OK for Ukraine to be destroyed, and thousands of Ukraine dead, as long as American doesn't suffer itself! A somewhat cynical attitude but not the only time in American history it's done that.

Remember another proxy war the US fought in a SEA country? That didn't end well for the US, but at least they did get involved more than in the current proxy war. Probably why they do it with other people's blood now.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, balo said:

The only thing that can make Putin regret this war is to fire a couple of missiles into Russian territory. Let the Russians themselves feel what's it like to experience constant terror.    

Depends on who made the missiles. IMO if they are American, BINGO, WW3.

[Tug]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, so it's OK for Ukraine to be destroyed, and thousands of Ukraine dead, as long as American doesn't suffer itself! A somewhat cynical attitude but not the only time in American history it's done that.

Remember another proxy war the US fought in a SEA country? That didn't end well for the US, but at least they did get involved more than in the current proxy war. Probably why they do it with other people's blood now.

Obviously there’s something wrong with your premise we interjected ourselves into the Vietnamese civil war obviously the side who had the majority of the Vietnamese hearts won the conflict.The difference here is we don’t have feet on the ground obviously the majority of the Ukrainians want Russia out and support democracy.they are humiliating Russia at little cost to the USA we are supporting American ideals democratic ideals and the Ukrainian peoples quest for democracy and independence slava Ukraine kick the invaders the hell out!

[candide]

5 hours ago, Black Ops said:

 

Sometimes, the traditional rivalry between the French and the British brings positive outcomes! ????

[tgw]

I'm worried about the current state of affairs. There currently seems to be a huge pressure from Ruzzians on the frontline, they are attacking everywhere between Marinka near Donetsk up to Bilohorivka.
New equipment and support for Ukraine is needed FAST.

One can only hope the Ruzzian battlefield gains (ok, just a few Kilometers here and there, but still) come at a huge military cost.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, so it's OK for Ukraine to be destroyed, and thousands of Ukraine dead, as long as American doesn't suffer itself! A somewhat cynical attitude but not the only time in American history it's done that.

Remember another proxy war the US fought in a SEA country? That didn't end well for the US, but at least they did get involved more than in the current proxy war. Probably why they do it with other people's blood now.

Wow.  Are you unaware that Russia started this war by invading Ukraine?  I thought that was common knowledge.  The US didn't start the war; in fact the US and allies went to great lengths and revealed a lot of classified intelligence about Russia's plans in an attempt to warn Ukraine and the rest of the world and dissuade Russia from invading.

 

When the Ukrainian people are tired of accepting support from the US and other countries to defend their country I'm sure they will let us know.  Until then they should be supported.

Edited January 9, 2023 by heybruce

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

I'm worried about the current state of affairs. There currently seems to be a huge pressure from Ruzzians on the frontline, they are attacking everywhere between Marinka near Donetsk up to Bilohorivka.
New equipment and support for Ukraine is needed FAST.

One can only hope the Ruzzian battlefield gains (ok, just a few Kilometers here and there, but still) come at a huge military cost.

Yes, Zelensky gets the urgency and has been doing a great job communicating that, but sadly as strong as the western support has been, it still hasn't been strong or quick enough.

[Social Media]

Vladimir Putin has suffered yet another huge blow after Russia was reportedly forced into a huge change over their transport of their war vehicles following an attack by Ukrainian forces. Ukrainian Armed Forces attacked railway facilities in Melitopol and the surrounding areas in southeastern Ukraine, forcing Russia into a change of tactics. Putin forces have now stopped ferrying vehicles directly through the city and now the train with T-62 tanks battle tanks have now arrived at the Sokologornoye station of the Genichesk district in southern Ukraine.

[bannork]

' Let's nuke France. That will cause NATO to back off!'

 

[rudi49jr]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, so it's OK for Ukraine to be destroyed, and thousands of Ukraine dead, as long as American doesn't suffer itself! A somewhat cynical attitude but not the only time in American history it's done that.

Remember another proxy war the US fought in a SEA country? That didn't end well for the US, but at least they did get involved more than in the current proxy war. Probably why they do it with other people's blood now.

You can’t compare Vietnam and Ukraine, that’s apples and oranges, two completely different kettles of fish. Vietnam was a war that the USA ventured into knowingly and willingly, they chose to do so. Ukraine is a war started by Russia, nothing to do with the USA or NATO or whatever. No one forced Russia to invade Ukraine, not the USA, not NATO, not the EU. This is Russia’s war by choice, and the West has every right to help Ukraine defend themselves

And please spare me the crocodile tears, because if it were up to you, Ukraine would have had to sign a ‘peace treaty’ with Russia long ago, giving up significant parts of its territory to Russia. But as has been repeated many times in this thread: you can not negotiate with a lunatic, and that ‘peace treaty’ would have been worthless. Putin and his clique have made it abundantly clear that they want to restore the old USSR, so it would only be a matter of time before they made a move on the rest of Ukraine, and then the Baltic states, and then Poland, and so on and so forth. 
The only way to remove that threat is to defeat Russia, and unfortunately for Ukraine they’re going to have to do that. With as much help from the West as is necessary. So please quit your whining about Ukraine not having to pay back for all the aid they’re receiving, because they are doing you and the rest of the world a huge service.

[Social Media]

The 4TH KEY DEFENCE OFFICIAL TO DIE IN 3 WEEKS !

 

Russia's leading rocket specialist - who developed deadly Kalibr missiles used in Ukraine - becomes the fourth key defence official to die in three weeks

• Pavel Kamnev, 85, was responsible for more than 20 weapons inventions 
• He was scientific director of Almaz-Antey Aerospace Defence Concern 
• A video shows him being made a Hero of Labour by Vladimir Putin in 2016

[Mavideol]

good news keep coming, Vlad he's getting his rear royally kicked  555

Ukrainian military reportedly sinks Russian warship as daily enemy losses top 700

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-military-reportedly-sinks-russian-092000217.html

 

 

[Mavideol]

and more of the same (losses), well done Ukraine, keep up the good fight

Ukraine news – live: Putin’s forces ‘step over corpses of own soldiers’ as Wagner pours in more fighters

https://au.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-news-live-kyiv-denies-081339524.html

[tgw]

4 hours ago, Black Ops said:

The 4TH KEY DEFENCE OFFICIAL TO DIE IN 3 WEEKS !

 

Russia's leading rocket specialist - who developed deadly Kalibr missiles used in Ukraine - becomes the fourth key defence official to die in three weeks

• Pavel Kamnev, 85, was responsible for more than 20 weapons inventions 
• He was scientific director of Almaz-Antey Aerospace Defence Concern 
• A video shows him being made a Hero of Labour by Vladimir Putin in 2016

sorry, that's not even newsworthy.

at 85, he wasn't a "leading" rocket scientist anymore.

"key defense official" at 85 - it's not possible to spin every side news story !

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, bannork said:

' Let's nuke France. That will cause NATO to back off!'

 

Link to Russia threatening to nuke France? Making stuff up?

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

You can’t compare Vietnam and Ukraine, that’s apples and oranges, two completely different kettles of fish. Vietnam was a war that the USA ventured into knowingly and willingly, they chose to do so. Ukraine is a war started by Russia, nothing to do with the USA or NATO or whatever. No one forced Russia to invade Ukraine, not the USA, not NATO, not the EU. This is Russia’s war by choice, and the West has every right to help Ukraine defend themselves

You completely missed the point I was making.

 

13 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

And please spare me the crocodile tears, because if it were up to you, Ukraine would have had to sign a ‘peace treaty’ with Russia long ago, giving up significant parts of its territory to Russia.

Correct, and a lot of people wouldn't have died, a lot of property wouldn't have been destroyed.

 

13 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

So please quit your whining

Typical insults from another poster that makes it personal.

 

How about complying with forum rules?

Our Forum Rules and Standards of Conduct can be summarized as Be Nice, Be Respectful. We encourage all members to be nice to each other, to help each other and to enjoy the forum and its content.

[Bkk Brian]

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Link to Russia threatening to nuke France? Making stuff up?

Link in the post to the twitter video, why make stuff up? Isn't it Russia that does that?

 

Some choice snippets:

"No need to scare the world, lets punch it in the nose"

"A preemptive strike against France a party to conflict"