Why do we continue to receive smaller pensions than European expats?

[Hummin]

19 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I get a small pension from Norway. It dropped from £160 to £130 a month because I told them I am living in Thailand.

I shall be 'moving back' to UK next month!

Your right to export your full pention to a country outside Europe, depending on how many years you lived and worked in Norway. 

[Asquith Production]

14 minutes ago, kennw said:

Something that people receiving pensions overseas dont understand is that home governments want pensions to be spent in the home country. This contributes to the economy there. Your pension today is paid for by todays taxpayers. As populations age there are more on the pension and the burden falls on those younger people working and paying taxes today. 

Yes and I am still paying tax so your comment falls their. Also I am not a burden on the NHS so their are pros and cons for the government.

[grego49]

6 hours ago, Onerak said:

I think it should be index linked (or adjusted for inflation, I assume) no matter where you live. At least social security in the USA is. 

And Australia,,,

[Aliflair]

I agree with @kennw, IMO if you are living in any foreign nation (meaning not the one paying you a state pension or benefit), then you should be thankful for whatever you get from that country. The taxes you paid throughout your life didn't go into a pot of gold with your name against it, it went to pay for roads, hospitals, education, defense, and towards whoever was getting a government benefit at that point in time. Correct me if I'm wrong but most western nations are heavily indebted, and benefits are paid from present day taxes, not a pension savings fund that was built up during the time you paid taxes (unless you have your own superannuation or 401k etc style that really was paid from your earnings). If you think you are being penalised living in Thailand (or whereever) then move to Spain, the UK, or where it works better for you. Sadly for most people they are raised with a sense of entitlement and expect governments to take care of them, I've planned to take care of myself and am not expecting anything in the way of government assistance. I know I won't be popular with many for expressing this opinion but if you are getting a pension count yourself lucky and enjoy the time you have left, I've paid a cr@p load of taxes in my time and have no expectation of getting any of that "back".

[superal]

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The policy makes no sense at all.

 

Apart from the moral arguments (which of course fall on deaf ears), the, math clearly adds up in favor of encouraging pensioners to retire overseas.

 

The state pension is only part of financial supports very many UK pensioners receive; they also receive, housing support, heating support, welfare services support, home help payments and of course health care.

 

For very many, these other costs far outweigh the pension they receive and all are not payable to pensioners who retire overseas.

 

The math is clear, support people to retire overseas.

 

Unfortunately the one MP who was vociferous in support of fair pensions, Kieth Vaz was ‘outed’ and disgraced.

 

He was of course primarily campaigning on behalf of the British-Indian constituency, very many of whom retire back to India but he was campaigning for fair pensions for all.

 

Addressing one other issue mentioned in the OP, UK v European Pensions.

 

The ‘triple-lock’ used to move UK pensions up to the value of the EU median was this year suspended, with a ‘politician’s promise’ that it will be reinstated next year (make of that what you will), but at precisely the time inflation takes off UK pensions are being de-linked from inflation.

 

 

Enjoy.

 

 

Have to comment on the benefits . To qualify for most of the benefits you almost have to be a pauper as I found out when I enquired . Benefits are based on your level of total income and your property valuation  as unearned income . Some might say that you are better off not having savings and make NIC s as low as possible as you will qualify for  the benefits .It is also unfair that a UK pensioner will have to pay for expensive dental services . 

Finally , when you enrol / sign up for the UK state pension there is within the small print an article that states if you choose to retire abroad your pension will be frozen with an exception to a few reciprocal countries and that is why any appeal will always lose . Indeed the pension rules need to be reviewed as they are out of date and do not take into today's ways of living/ retiring . 

[vandeventer]

54 minutes ago, itsari said:

I am not about handouts for fuel etc 

I and many hundreds of thousands are cheated by the UK and Australia . Australia being the worst offender 

I know what you are saying, I am also a Australian and have lived here more than 20 years and have accepted the terms of the pension from day one. It would be very hard to live in Australia now on the pension with all the extras but dead easy here.

[Andy261]

3 hours ago, itsari said:

Reality for most foreign pensioners living in Thailand . 

Manageable to live on 15000 a month if you own your home . 

You appear to be the one out of touch with reality 

Manageable to live?

I would say manageable to survive.

[Will B Good]

Anybody looking to take action and expect results needs to consider who they intend to vote for in the next GE.

 

Bunter won't be boosting your OAP that's for sure....triple-lock broken and NIP being considered on your pension income.

 

If the oligarchs money is going to disappear someone else will need to pay for his wallpaper.

[Hummin]

1 minute ago, Andy261 said:

Manageable to live?

I would say manageable to survive.

If you live single and make your own food, and you own your appartment? Manageable. We live on 30k a month on the farm and have 15k in expenses before food, gasolin, diesel etc. we live good, but it is without holiday, insurance, etc. just daily living cost and expenses including pay for workers

[Harveyboy]

3 hours ago, Asquith Production said:

If theirs one thing that the UK Government does that angers me is this inequality with pensioners. I have my pension paid into my UK bank and then move across when the exchange rate is favorable. It does not cost the UK Government anything extra so I do not understand this so called reciprocal agreement. The only thing different is my address. 

 

The UK have actually committed fraud in my opinion and it is about time that  everybody got together to fight this.

UK doesn't give s##t about its oap's we have outlived our usefulness.. discarded.no longer needed work us till we drop then pay us a pittance   just take a look at what other countries in Europe pay their retirees..UK is a joke

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, Harveyboy said:

UK doesn't give s##t about its oap's we have outlived our usefulness.. discarded.no longer needed work us till we drop then pay us a pittance   just take a look at what other countries in Europe pay their retirees..UK is a joke

Not entirely true, pensioners are a very active voting demographic, they receive a great deal of consideration.

 

Not so expats.

 

The UK should follow the French example and have an MP who is voted into office by expats.

[Harveyboy]

The UK is an embarrassment when it comes to taking care of its retirees...work us till we drop then pay us pittance to survive on whilst our European OAP's get a pension they can actually live on?..

when we move abroad we do not take up free government services ie.. doctors.. hospitals..dentists.. opticians..free transport ect ect we save the country a fortune by leaving but our pensions cannot be indexed linked if we decide to live out our lives in Thailand..Shame on the British government for treating us like S##t 

[bert bloggs]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

Just our bad luck unfortunately, to do with having some sort of agreement between countries I believe. Regarding people trying to get around it by having a house in the UK, I would say to them be careful, a friend of mine has been caught, he is paying it all back monthly

How was he caught, someone must have told on him ,

[BritManToo]

49 minutes ago, Aliflair said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but most western nations are heavily indebted, and benefits are paid from present day taxes, not a pension savings fund that was built up during the time you paid taxes (unless you have your own superannuation or 401k etc style that really was paid from your earnings). If you think you are being penalised living in Thailand (or whereever) then move to Spain, the UK, or where it works better for you. Sadly for most people they are raised with a sense of entitlement and expect governments to take care of them, I've planned to take care of myself and am not expecting anything in the way of government assistance.

Some odd thoughts for you ...................

I paid 3 types of taxes in the UK

1. Income tax 40% (for the state to use as they wished)

2. NI 20% of my income (health care and state pension).

3. Council tax (local roads/education/local government).

 

That's more than 1/2 my income for the past 50 years.

How the government manages my taxes is really not my concern, as long as they have enough to pay what they owe me. If they choose to overspend, that doesn't relieve them of their financial responsibilities towards me.

 

PS,

I never used the National health system, I paid for nothing.

My employer also provided me with Private health insurance (I paid tax on that too), which I never used.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by BritManToo

[Guderian]

There has recently been an official UK APPG (All-Party Parliamentary Group) into Frozen British Pensions which was unequivocal in its findings. All British recipients of the state pension should have it increased in the same way, regardless of where they live. They went on to lament the hardships causes by the current policy and how there was no way of justifying it.

 

http://frozenbritishpensions.org/

 

The first thing that happened after their report was published was that the UK government blithely ignored it in discussions on the matter with the Canadian government. The only way to get something done about this is to pressure your MP, you did sign up to become an Overseas Voter when you left the UK, right? Even if you've been out of the UK for more than 15 years, there's an act that should just about be through the Lords by now which will give all UK nationals the right to vote wherever they live and for the rest of their lives once it's been passed. So please, once that bill is law sign up to become a voter again and then start writing to your MP about the situation, there is no moral case for continuing with the current system, as stated clearly by the APPG.

[fredscats]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

Just our bad luck unfortunately, to do with having some sort of agreement between countries I believe. Regarding people trying to get around it by having a house in the UK, I would say to them be careful, a friend of mine has been caught, he is paying it all back monthly

You say someone you" know"  has been caught,at what precisely?   sickness benefit? jobseekers?  housing benefit?   Come on fill in the details

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, Guderian said:

So please, once that bill is law sign up to become a voter again and then start writing to your MP about the situation,

Two points,

1. Expats don't have MPs.

2. If I were to write to someone, they might start to think I was living outside the UK (and reduce my pension).

 

Best to keep your head down and say nothing IMHO.

Edited March 1, 2022 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

a friend of mine has been caught, he is paying it all back monthly

Link to the court judgement or it's BS.

[fredscats]

6 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

How was he caught, someone must have told on him ,

Told of what?   sickness benefit perhaps?     Nothing in DWP regulations on OAP can be given back         Pie in the sky stuff,imagination runs riot

[Harveyboy]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not entirely true, pensioners are a very active voting demographic, they receive a great deal of consideration.

 

Not so expats.

 

The UK should follow the French example and have an MP who is voted into office by expats.

yes i suppose so but not just us here but the sad amount our pensioners get to exist on in the uk so how does that add to the voting issue.. at the end of the day we have outlived our usefulness  simple

[DaLa]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Some odd thoughts for you ...................

I paid 3 types of axes in the UK

1. Income tax 40% (for the state to use as they wished)

2. NI 20% of my income (health care and state pension).

3. Council tax (local roads/education/local government).

 

That's more than 1/2 my income for the past 50 years.

How the government manages my taxes is really not my concern, as long as they have enough to pay what they owe me.

If they choose to overspend, that doesn't relieve them of their financial responsibilities towards me.

 

PS,

I never used the National health system, I paid for nothing.

My employer also provided me with Private health insurance (I paid tax on that too), which I never used.

 

 

Agreed, and we can also add the other 97 ( it's generally recognised that there are over 100 taxes in the UK) to that list. Of course to top it all we are then taxed on our income whilst outside the UK by the same government.

 

I accept taxes have to be paid  for infrastructure and services. The original post is questioning whether it is fair.  Well is it fair that those of us that moved to a country not deemed to have 'reciprocal arrangements' ( don't see how Thailand can have 'reciprocal arrangements' as it doesn't fair too well on social benefits in the first place) , suffer financial penalties. However there are thousands in the UK that have never paid into the system in the first place that receive financial benefits without question. That in my opinion is the unjust situation over the 'freezing' of our state pensions.

 

[wwest5829]

3 hours ago, hereforgood said:

Yep my SS cost of living raise this year was 95 US dollars

I appreciate the raises ... could due without the cost increase for Medicare, Part B reducing the raise since civilian retirees cannot use Medicare outside US territory.

Quote

 

 

[fredscats]

Personally the pensioner does not need to inform anyone of whereabouts,not sanctionable,just an invite to-put your hand in the fire ,get it frozen,no law being broken

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, DaLa said:

That in my opinion is the unjust situation over the 'freezing' of our state pensions.

The freezing of YOUR state pension.

I've never let anyone know where I live so mine isn't frozen (and the police can't find me).

Edited March 1, 2022 by BritManToo

[PaDavid]

I knew what to expect when I moved here, like you, 7 years ago. But, it still irks. I’ve signed the petition but it needs to be spread far and wide, and I don’t know how to do that. I have friends in Turkey, but that’s one of the countries not affected. 
 

It needs someone with some drive and determination to push it through. 

[Pravda]

The way the world is going loso retired expats will be lucky to get anything at all if they are non residents for tax purposes.

 

The countries are going broke. You only get to spend money in your own country. No more castles in issan

[SunsetT]

1) Move to the Phillipines?

 

2) Set up a dummy address in the Phillipines?

 

3) If you have family or friends you could stay with, return to the UK for a 6 months holiday , say every 5 years to get your pension updated to the current rate?

 

4) And following 3) possibly keep a permanent UK address with said friend or family and get index linked pension paid into a UK bank account and transferred via Wise to Thailand? Would understaffed HMRC be any the wiser?

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, Pravda said:

The way the world is going loso retired expats will be lucky to get anything at all if they are non residents for tax purposes.

Why would you assume we don't pay UK taxes?

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, itsari said:

I said you can live on 15000 . I never said anything about income.

If you have 800000 in the Thai bank then income does not pay a part 

Plopping 800k in a Thai bank isn't the best use of their money.   Yea, you can 'exist' on 15k or less a month but I personally wouldn't care to.   30k would be comfy, and could own scooter if wanting.  

 

10k for basics (rent, ele/w/int/petrol), 20k for actual living (food, etc).  Doesn't leave much for socializing or out & abouts.   The 800k for emergncy medical.

 

Hope whoever has quite a bit more than just that.  I know more than a few who left, when embassies stopped issuing income letters, along with the Brexit GBP drop.

 

When it comes to lump sum 800k vs direct deposit, what they get, and what they can deposit may be 2 different sums, due to divorce & alimony/child support.   So off to Cambo / Nam, or local agent's office.  Income letter vs actual available funds was a game changer for many.

[Kalasin Jo]

7 hours ago, Wiggy said:

You can’t really blame Asia in general, as the Philippines is index linked. 
 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

As you say it's nothing to do with Asia in general. Scandalously in my opinion the British government will only index link for

 1. expats  living in the EU and benefitting post brexit from a provision in the brexit Withdrawal Agreement to continue to do so because previously they were obliged to do so under EU law.

2. Other expats where they live in a country with a reciprocal arrangement in place for their own expat pensioners living in the UK. The Philippines surprisingly does as does the USA. Canada does not, nor I think Australia and New Zealand. So it's a lottery and many Brits the world over have frozen UK pensions. Over the years this mounts up to a significant shortfall.

 

Check out the pressure group endfrozenpensions.org

There you will find a map by country showing who benefits from uprating and who does not.

 

I'm sure some here and elsewhere retain a UK address and bank account linked to it, to preserve uprating, in to which the pension is paid.

 

But then there is the cost of sending it onto Thailand and there is always some cost to do that.

 

I think doing this is tempting but risky as when periodically asked to return a certificate of life it would need to be done in the UK to avoid the risk of being found out. If not the cost of returning to the UK to do it would far outweigh the advantage

 

If found out the UK Pension Service would be entitled to  and surely would, recover overpayments with interest, by deduction from future pension payments. They might also prosecute for fraud.

 

Maybe some have a way round that? I'd be interested in how people do it and if anyone has been caught and what the consequences were.