8 minutes ago, Scott said:

There was indeed discussion between Mr. Baker and the Soviet leader Mikhail S. Gorbachev in the months after the fall of the Berlin Wall about limiting NATO jurisdiction if East and West Germany were reunited, no such provision was included in the final treaty signed by the Americans, Europeans and Russians.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/us/politics/russia-ukraine-james-baker.html

 

 

The convenient term discussion were in fact promises made by world leaders.

1 minute ago, StraightTalk said:

The convenient term discussion were in fact promises made by world leaders.

I am not interested in getting into the discussion, but if you are going to post something as a fact, then it does need to backed up with a link. 

 

There is a signed treaty and it does not include anything resembling what you are asserting.  

On 3/2/2022 at 7:18 PM, billd766 said:

But whose airline did they fly in on? There are very few airlines flying in and out of Russia now and I doubt if Aeroflot or whatever have any aircraft capable of a return flight from Russia without being refueled. In addition most Russian flights are banned, certainly from the EU and UK airspace. I suppose they could fly via China and refuel there both ways.

I suspect your last point is spot on Bill. I expect to see repatriation flights being arranged shortly.

1 hour ago, StraightTalk said:

There would not be an invasion if previous agreements had been honored.

USA's J Baker’s gave assurance not to move one "inch eastward" - this is well documented https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/about
USA and NATO have broken this and other promises ever since the SU ceased to exist.
The Russian have reason to be <deleted>-off and the invasion is justified - which wasn't a spur-of-the-moment decision. Ukraine's comedian honcho together with USA and NATO thought Putin was bluffing... gross miscalculation on their part. Oh well.

Repeating a lie does not make it true:  There was never a promise to not expand east.

 

"Putin has repeatedly said that NATO's eastwards expansion was breaking a promise made by Western powers after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Yet, even Mikhail Gorbachev, who partook in the talks as the last Soviet leader, has said that no such promise was ever made. Meanwhile, NATO’s declared open door policy included in its founding treaty will continue to make membership an option for sovereign nations – post-Soviet or not – despite the risky consequences."  https://www.forbes.com/sites/katharinabuchholz/2022/01/19/how-nato-expanded-eastwards-infographic/?sh=61299e87218d

 

"Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”"  https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

 

"Though the topic may have been raised during the treaty's negotiations, there is no mention of NATO enlargement in the September–October 1990 agreements on German reunification"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

 

One question the Russia supporters never answer:  Why do almost all European nations bordering on Russia feel the need to join NATO? 

 

The answer is obvious--Russia threatens, bullies, and undermines its neighbors whenever it finds it convenient to do so.  Of course these countries want to join NATO.

9 minutes ago, Scott said:

I am not interested in getting into the discussion, but if you are going to post something as a fact, then it does need to backed up with a link. 

 

There is a signed treaty and it does not include anything resembling what you are asserting.  

I thought discussing this issue here is what is this forum all about.

My intent is/was to alert others that they should consider whether or not to blindly believe tabloid. It is obvious that many here are driven by emotions but squelching out other views can hardly be beneficial for any public communications venue.

If the links that I have submitted are regarded as false then so be it - end of discussion, I am out of here.

https://greatpowerrelations.com/not-one-inch-eastward/

1 minute ago, StraightTalk said:

I thought discussing this issue here is what is this forum all about.

My intent is/was to alert others that they should consider whether or not to blindly believe tabloid. It is obvious that many here are driven by emotions but squelching out other views can hardly be beneficial for any public communications venue.

If the links that I have submitted are regarded as false then so be it - end of discussion, I am out of here.

https://greatpowerrelations.com/not-one-inch-eastward/

You are more than welcome to discuss the issue, however, if you post something as being a fact, then it needs to be backed up with a link to a credible source.   Posting information which is false is against the forum rules.  

 

Forum members are welcome to express their opinion within the rules.  

 

1 hour ago, StraightTalk said:

I thought discussing this issue here is what is this forum all about.

My intent is/was to alert others that they should consider whether or not to blindly believe tabloid. It is obvious that many here are driven by emotions but squelching out other views can hardly be beneficial for any public communications venue.

If the links that I have submitted are regarded as false then so be it - end of discussion, I am out of here.

https://greatpowerrelations.com/not-one-inch-eastward/

From your source:

 

"Although no particular, non-expansion pledge was ever codified, US policymakers presented their Soviet counterparts with implicit and informal assurances in 1990 strongly suggesting that NATO would not expand in post–Cold War Europe if the Soviet Union consented to German reunification."

 

"implicit and informal assurances in 1990 strongly suggesting" to a country that no longer exists and which had former parts of non-existent country request NATO membership.  Any promises that some people want to think were made have been long since overcome by events.

 

You continue to ignore the obvious question:  Why do European countries bordering on Russia feel an urgent need to joint NATO?

 

Russia needs to do a better job of getting along with its neighbors.  Unfortunately it is going full tilt in the opposite direction.

3 hours ago, StraightTalk said:

There would not be an invasion if previous agreements had been honored.

USA's J Baker’s gave assurance not to move one "inch eastward" - this is well documented https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/about
USA and NATO have broken this and other promises ever since the SU ceased to exist.
The Russian have reason to be <deleted>-off and the invasion is justified - which wasn't a spur-of-the-moment decision. Ukraine's comedian honcho together with USA and NATO thought Putin was bluffing... gross miscalculation on their part. Oh well.

lack of knowledge about Russia/Putin mentality... pity & sad

3 hours ago, StraightTalk said:

There would not be an invasion if previous agreements had been honored.

USA's J Baker’s gave assurance not to move one "inch eastward" - this is well documented https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/about
USA and NATO have broken this and other promises ever since the SU ceased to exist.
The Russian have reason to be <deleted>-off and the invasion is justified - which wasn't a spur-of-the-moment decision. Ukraine's comedian honcho together with USA and NATO thought Putin was bluffing... gross miscalculation on their part. Oh well.

since Putin grabbed power he claimed time after time the reunification of the USSR he never agreed with the split in  1991 Gorbachev and Yeltsin saw the future, Putin took advantage of a war 1999 to grab power

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/03/vladimir-putin-ukraine-war-chechnya

 

Twenty-two years ago, a vicious war brought Vladimir Putin to power. Ever since, war has remained one of his main tools, which he has used without flinching throughout his reign. Vladimir Putin exists thanks to war, has thrived through war. Let us now hope that a war will finally bring him down.

 

1 hour ago, StraightTalk said:

I am glad this is spelled out as in my book moderatorship calls for a unbiased 'cum' nonpartisan individual of a forum such as this.

to refresh your memory of unbiased partisan

 

https://www.hudson.org/research/12750-vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible

Vladimir Putin & 1999 Russian Apartment-House Bombings -- Was Putin Responsible?

believe that Vladimir Putin came to power as the result of an act of terror committed against his own people. The evidence is overwhelming that the apartment-house bombings in 1999 in Moscow, Buinaksk, and Volgodonsk, which provided a pretext for the second Chechen war and catapulted Putin into the presidency,

 

 

A post with a video from an unapproved social media source has been removed:

 

18) Social Media content is acceptable in most social forums. However, in factual areas such as news, current affairs and health topics, it cannot be used unless it is from a credible news media source or government agency, and must include a weblink to the original source.

 

Getting back on Topic, news media now report about 27,000 Russian tourists are stranded throughout the world, unable to get back to Russia because Russian airlines or Russian operated flights are forbidden from EU, Canadian, USA and other air spaces. Reports of 17,000 Russians stranded in Dominican Republic.

 

Sabre Corp. on Thursday said it terminated its distribution agreement with Russia’s Aeroflot, a move that Europe’s Amadeus followed suit. Aeroflot’s flights won’t show up on online travel agencies or other third-party sites.

 

Aerospace manufacturers, Boeing, General Electric and others, have suspended parts distribution and service agreements with Russia. More details here:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/airline-software-giant-sabre-ends-service-with-russias-aeroflot-crippling-carriers-ability-to-sell-seats.html

 

 

 

Russian ruble continues to decline. From xe.com,1 USD = 116.997 RUB, 1 RUB = 0.00854724 USD, Mar 4, 2022, 18:10 UTC.

 

Many big western companies are stopping production, sales, support or started divesting of assets in Russia. Including: Airbnb, FedEx, Volkswagen, Toyota, Ford, GM, Oracle, Apple, Spotify, IKEA, Nike, H&M, Accenture, Airbus and others. Tens of thousands of Russians will be unemployed/idled. Maybe these unemployed will start to protest?

 

One story here:

https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/volkswagen-spotify-apple-leave-russia-ukraine-war-51646330316?mod=newsviewer_click

 

What was Putin thinking? Doesn't look like a genius anymore.

 

1 hour ago, Banana7 said:

Getting back on Topic, news media now report about 27,000 Russian tourists are stranded throughout the world, unable to get back to Russia because Russian airlines or Russian operated flights are forbidden from EU, Canadian, USA and other air spaces. Reports of 17,000 Russians stranded in Dominican Republic.

 

Sabre Corp. on Thursday said it terminated its distribution agreement with Russia’s Aeroflot, a move that Europe’s Amadeus followed suit. Aeroflot’s flights won’t show up on online travel agencies or other third-party sites.

 

Aerospace manufacturers, Boeing, General Electric and others, have suspended parts distribution and service agreements with Russia. More details here:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/airline-software-giant-sabre-ends-service-with-russias-aeroflot-crippling-carriers-ability-to-sell-seats.html

Well, I wonder if western gov'ts can confiscate some of those mansions, luxury apartments and yachts and put the stranded tourists in them for the time being.   Personally, I'd take the yacht!

 

Just now, Credo said:

Well, I wonder if western gov'ts can confiscate some of those mansions, luxury apartments and yachts and put the stranded tourists in them for the time being.   Personally, I'd take the yacht!

 

There will be some yachts, mansions, apartments, condos up for auction soon, but all in the high-end luxury range? Get your bidding paddle ready.

 

On 3/2/2022 at 5:50 AM, chang1 said:

Not much sympathy for the Russians but certainly the Ukrainians should be helped. 

I'm glad there are no Russians where I live as I would get in trouble for telling them what I think of their leader. 

The Russians I know in Samui almost certainly have an even worse view of their leader than you do.  One reason so maany are here.

22 hours ago, StraightTalk said:

The convenient term discussion were in fact promises made by world leaders.

Weere these like Putin's promises not to invade Ukraine

9 minutes ago, futsukayoi said:

Weere these like Putin's promises not to invade Ukraine

I don't know and don't recall reading about it.

18 minutes ago, StraightTalk said:

I don't know and don't recall reading about it.

You missed his promises of not invading............28th Jan

 

Vladimir Putin says Russia will not invade Ukraine but sends warning to West

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You missed his promises of not invading............28th Jan

 

Vladimir Putin says Russia will not invade Ukraine but sends warning to West

Thanks for the link. Well, he wasn't bluffing, was he?

Just now, StraightTalk said:

Thanks for the link. Well, he wasn't bluffing, was he?

You tell me, you have the article now

36 minutes ago, futsukayoi said:

Weere these like Putin's promises not to invade Ukraine

Not to mention it is good or bad ... but any promise , and i really mean ANY promise , by ANY politician , across the world does mean anything ?

This does not mean i am for it nor against it ( well yes i am , but that's beside the answer i give ) , just a general observation . A promise does not mean anything and even less when it comes from any politicians mouth .

23 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You tell me, you have the article now

He wasn't.

1 hour ago, StraightTalk said:

The dollar almighty may play a major part for their 'need' to join the club - $$ is a great motivator. It's a power grabbing exercise and USA is awash with slush funds; They are experts misdirecting taxpayers money and/or misleading the public. Just ask O. North...

I see.  You skip the obvious explanation; that Russia is a domineering neighbor threatening bordering countries, in order to speculate without evidence about some kind of financial motive for joining NATO.

 

If that is true, why has NATO been refusing to allow Ukraine and other countries into the alliance?

5 minutes ago, StraightTalk said:

He wasn't.

Its called double speak:

 

Putin 28th Jan "Russia will not start a war in Ukraine, the country's President Vladimir Putin has said" but warned that the US and Nato have left little room for compromise after ignoring his demands.

 

 

24th Feb Russia Invades Ukraine and war starts

 

28 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I see.  You skip the obvious explanation; that Russia is a domineering neighbor threatening bordering countries, in order to speculate without evidence about some kind of financial motive for joining NATO.

 

If that is true, why has NATO been refusing to allow Ukraine and other countries into the alliance?

[quote]

"implicit and informal assurances in 1990 strongly suggesting" to a country that no longer exists[...]"

[unquote]

Obviously the promise(s) were made prior the SU leader(s) decided on dismantling the Union. The Russian leader(s) have the right that these promise(s) is/are honored.

Concerning expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence - We just have to wait until respective documents are available and publicized under the Freedom of Information Act (which is not made known in newspapers with half-size pages). In the meantime I have mine and others have theirs - Respect!

On 3/4/2022 at 10:10 AM, StraightTalk said:

I thought discussing this issue here is what is this forum all about.

My intent is/was to alert others that they should consider whether or not to blindly believe tabloid. It is obvious that many here are driven by emotions but squelching out other views can hardly be beneficial for any public communications venue.

If the links that I have submitted are regarded as false then so be it - end of discussion, I am out of here.

https://greatpowerrelations.com/not-one-inch-eastward/

Yes false 

1 hour ago, StraightTalk said:

Thanks for the link. Well, he wasn't bluffing, was he?

commonly referred to as speaking out of both sides of his mouth. I think the lie carries more weight than the warning. He could have ruled out "not invading". There's no defense of Putin worth a c*** cup full of cold water.

47 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its called double speak

I am completely at ease if you're happy with your interpretation. That Putin wasn't bluffing needs no further explanation.

4 minutes ago, StraightTalk said:

I am completely at ease if you're happy with your interpretation. That Putin wasn't bluffing needs no further explanation.

How about wasn't lying? You want to comment on that or taking a swerve?