Bangkok’s Bumrungrad Hospital ranked country’s best in global survey

[herfiehandbag]

42 minutes ago, Hummin said:

It is fair enough that some government hospitals is up to date, especially army connected hospitals, but normal Thais are not transfered there from their local hospitals unless they have some priority (Government employed or other Vip). To be transfered from a village hospital to a  provincial government hospital, means you are dying, and most likely to late.

 

My experience is similar to yours.

No it doesn't. I was transferred immediately from my local rural hospital to the Provincial hospital in Chiang Rai when I presented with a sceptic foot which required immediate surgery.

 

The surgical and post surgical care was excellent, although the food was awful.

 

Payment was not even discussed until I was ready for discharge. The amount was reasonable and I was able to pay over three months.

 

Subsequent treatment at my local hospital has been excellent. It too is painted in a virulent shade of electric green.

 

I have to report that I didn't die, at least not that I noticed!

 

There is a steady stream of ambulance vans which transfer patients from all over the province to the very large and well equipped provincial hospital.

 

I will admit that waiting times for follow up appointments with the surgeon can take up to three hours or so - take a book!

 

On balance, I think the government hospitals are good. The system works, and all treatment throughout was provided on the basis of clinical need and not my ethnicity or presumed financial resources.

Edited March 14, 2022 by herfiehandbag

[Excel]

54 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Hahaha.......rushed to hospital awhile ago out in the sticks.

 

Told the doctor I had insurance....the doctor turned to the nurse and told her to put me in the "VIP room".........

 

A room with a bed, blood all down the walls (to be fair, probably from squashed mosquitos)......it was en suite in that it had a squat toilet and handbasin. The handbasin was hanging off the wall with so many ants crawling all over it you could hardly see any porcelain.......how we larfed.

Well if you could "larf" you could hardly have been that ill to be rushed to hospital or were you suffering from serious delusions and it was in fact a psychiatric hospital? ????

[thailand49]

7 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I am glad you have had such positive experiences..... but I assure you there are many complaints too. 

He most likely never really been sick perhaps a over charge sponge bath sadly majority of Thai can't afford even my burger downstairs was overcharged!  Once maybe but the main priority is $$$$$$$ and more $$$$$$$$

[howerde]

Was it not a government hospital in Khon Kaen where a number of people went blind after cataract surgery, blamed on dirty hospital equipment and for that they got between 50000-100000 baht

[Sparktrader]

Yanhee better

[Thunglom]

14 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

Exactly, what flaws are you talking about? I'm 75 and find the level of medical care here excellent....far improved over the system in Australia.

When it comes to judging healthcare

 

Firstly laypeople make judgments based on personal experience and anecdotal evidence. This is not good evidence anyhow but also they are not usually qualified to make a judgement in the first place.

The majority of people who pass through ANY healthcare system are satisfied with the way they are treated. They go in sick and come out better. This is often confusing “satisfaction” with “relief” …. But, this is not the full picture of a healthcare system.

 

Most people when they enter a hospital, are worried or scared. They accept without question the doctor’s diagnosis and then accept the treatment – usually signing a waiver before it’s started.

When they are discharged they leave the hospital feeling “cured” or better and are relieved to be going home. At no point do they usually question the treatment they’ve received – it “worked” and that’s all they are concerned with. Whether or not it was the most efficacious or the most appropriate course of treatment is seldom queried.

 

People are basically making judgments on things they know nothing about. But, you don’t need to be a medical expert to see the flaws in the Thai system as opposed to medical procedures, you just need to look in the right places and apply critical thinking.

 

For instance, staffing, structure and hierarchy are relatively easy for a layperson to understand and a better way of understanding the healthcare system and its faults in Thailand than making judgments based on personal medical experiences, which are often misunderstood and not representative of a system involving millions of people.

 

The rigid hierarchical structure of staffing in the Thai system is one problem. It is characteristic of many Thai institutions that you don’t criticise your superiors or even make suggestions. This is very prevalent in the Thai system where Doctors are regarded as infallible, almost as Gods. What they say goes and is seldom challenged. This leads to problems regarding any ethical questions or concerns about negligence – there is just no way to challenge a doctors decision. This situation leads to serious questions about the ethics at Thai hospitals. Treatment of patients can be dictated by finance rather than genuine needs. The lack of clear responsibility coupled with the doctors “closed ranks” means that if you do have a problem the chances of addressing it are very small. In the event of possible negligence there is very little chance of comeback.

 

When he was PM, K. Abhisit tried to introduce reforms to set up a legal process to make doctors more accountable – in response Doctors in Thailand took to wearing black arm bands. Abhisit was born in UK and both his parents were medical professors – his attempts to make doctors more accountable failed.

When you go into a Thai hospital, in particular one of the massive privately owned conglomerates, you will notice a large number of staff all wearing uniforms as if they are nurses. This is misleading. They may be admin, cleaners or any other employees of the hospital…..to check ask yourself when was the last time you saw a real nurse of any kind wearing high heels. You may also question the qualifications of those administering injections and other basic procedures. Some members of the “nursing” staff receive less than a day’s training.

 

Training of doctors is also questionable – as anyone will tell you in any field including education, corruption is rife, a culture of “no fail” prevails.

You will also see doctors with certificates from other countries – especially the USA – these are often misleading – they don’t mean that person trained as a doctor in America, to do this they would be required to do at least 6 years education and training regardless of their home qualifications. Many teaching hospitals in the USA make extra money by selling “specialist” courses to foreign doctors – who remember are not allowed to practice in the USA – they can observe and learn only. This practice doesn’t happen in Europe so much.

 

Thailand does not have an effective GP system either; these are a specific field of medicine charged with primary contact , day to day treatment and diagnosis. This means that in order to diagnose an illness a patient (client) may have to go through consultations with several doctors before one finally thinks he/she knows what the problem is… and then the treatment may be outdated or the only one that doctor is aware of.

Basic medical training is no longer given in English in Thailand – this means more young practitioners are churned out to deal with the shortage of rural doctors, but it means that most doctors in Thailand are incapable of reading medical journals and papers and thus keeping up with latest medical practices – and outside their field of specialty, they are totally in the dark.

 

Doctors after training are required to work only 3 years in government hospitals.

Most doctors go into private, specialised practice ASAP. They do not work in just one location. They might be employed at multiple hospitals, or work in a public hospital while also reporting for hours at a private clinic. This system means you could see multiple physicians over the course of your treatment.

One of the most glaring failings of the Thai system is the lack of a central unified standardised first responder service. Hospitals are left to their own devices to sort out contracts with local “ambulances” which may vary from a couple of guys with a pick-up truck with lowered suspension (go figure!?!)  to a customised minibus with any variable amount of equipment and usually no-one is a fully trained paramedic. There used to be reports of fights between ambulance driver as to who would get the emergency and thus the fee from the hospital who put out the call. They may even judge which hopital to take a patient based on their own non-medical criteria. 

Another problem I’ve noticed with the Thai system is the space and therefore credibility it gives to alternative healthcare – e.g. TCM, acupuncture etc – this is not acceptable in an institution that is meant to provide science based medicine and reflects badly on the training and ethics of those in charge.

 

Hospitals in Thailand are held up as a great example of national healthcare – and in general they DO outshine their neighbours. The foreigners they often represent a cheap alternative or a way of jumping queues in home state run systems. But BEWARE – just because they are clean with Corbusier furnishings and fish tanks, it doesn’t mean they are “the best”. There are in reality some serious underlying problems in what is for the most part an industry primarily concerned with profit

 

[Pravda]

14 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

Exactly, what flaws are you talking about? I'm 75 and find the level of medical care here excellent....far improved over the system in Australia.

Zzzzzz

[Thunglom]

17 hours ago, sungod said:

As there are in just about every hospital in the world...........

It's not purely the number of complaints - it's the system for complaining. In Thailand complaints are ignored and there is no system for dealing with them.

[Thunglom]

17 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

There's always complaints...at every level of any service industry.

Unfortunately the situation in Thailand, including the defamation laws probably makes it even LESS likely that people will complain and the way they are dealt with will also suppress this sort of problem.

[Thunglom]

15 hours ago, Will B Good said:

Stood outside I see Bentleys, Rolls Royce, Ferraris, Lamborghinis.

I can find no medical papers anywhere that suggest these vehicles have any influence of the efficacy of medication - unless you are implying that doctors reduce their care for those with less money. ... or they own the cars.

[Misty]

15 hours ago, ozfarang said:

Wrong. Was that a guess?

I attend Samitivej Hospital soi 49 for all my medical needs in Thailand, it's also a private hospital, and provides an excellent service at a lot lower cost than Bumrungrad Hospital.

Personal choice

As a patient at both Bumrungrad and Samitivej over the years, I prefer Samitivej for a number of reasons. 

 

For me, in particular Bumrungrad's handling of the Moderna vaccine last year was extremely disappointing. Samitivej did a much better and more transparent job.

[Thunglom]

16 hours ago, sungod said:

You get what you pay for, had some excellent surgery on some long term sports injuries enabling me me to stay very active.

 

I would imagine most on here with negative comments are more down to jealousy.

"you gt what you pay"? - that is a highly provocative comment that raises all sorts of questions of ethics etc.

As for "jealousy" - hardly an argument, is it?

[sungod]

8 hours ago, Thunglom said:

"you gt what you pay"? - that is a highly provocative comment that raises all sorts of questions of ethics etc.

As for "jealousy" - hardly an argument, is it?

You clearly get what you pay for, many of the techniques /equipment are not available at ordinarily hospitals. Again, not limited to private hospitals in Thailand.

 

Whats up, you sound jealous, ever had a procedure at Bumrungrad, its very good you know.

[Thunglom]

6 hours ago, sungod said:

You clearly get what you pay for, many of the techniques /equipment are not available at ordinarily hospitals. Again, not limited to private hospitals in Thailand.

 

Whats up, you sound jealous, ever had a procedure at Bumrungrad, its very good you know.

You are the perfect customer for the Thai healthcare system (and the American one too). Very little understanding of how a healthcare system can work and an innate fear of illness and a forlorn hope that money and technology can save you.

 

“You get what you pay for” is a very ill- founded premise. As I said earlier that is a perception based in the inequitable nature of healthcare in Thailand. Itself a serious fault in the system.

 

One of the many problems inherent in the system is the Thai obsession with “face” – as I said “This situation leads to serious questions about the ethics at Thai hospitals. Treatment of patients can be dictated by finance rather than genuine needs” – “Thailand’s hospitals follow a long Thai tradition of attaching great importance to “face”. Just because they are clean with Corbusier style furnishings and fish tanks, it doesn’t mean they are “the best”.

 

It is part and parcel of this “face” that patients are impressed by the presence of shiny chromium plated machines that go “beep”.

Why?

What are they for?

How often do you need them and are people trained properly to use them and how many people?

 

True healthcare is not solely reliant on technology and much of the “high-end” machines are in fact only relevant for a small number of conditions.

Government hospitals which are lower cost in general, have a wide range of technologies available. Whereas, private hospitals often have limitations to the treatments they offer. There are occasions where a seemingly luxurious private hospital has to pass patients over to government care as they don’t have the facilities to deal with it. Passing patients from one hospital to another is a particularly unsavoury feature of Thai healthcare.

 

The key to good healthcare is diagnosis. The ability to pinpoint an illness quickly and accurately and then proceed on the most appropriate treatment – unaffected by financial considerations or questionable ethics. This doesn’t come with twinkling digital displays or money, it comes with well-trained, ethical doctors. . and we already know that doctors rove from one hospital to another.

 

“Whats up [sic], you sound jealous, ever had a procedure at Bumrungrad, its very good you know.”

I find this line particularly telling. You clearly don’t know anything about healthcare or putting forward an argument. How do you figure “jealousy” as a factor in the evidence I’ve presented?

Secondly I’ve already outlined how pointless anecdotal or personal experience is and a comment like “its [sic] very good you know.” Just shows how tenuous your grasp is of the issues if you think that is a valid remark.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Thunglom

[sungod]

3 hours ago, Thunglom said:

You are the perfect customer for the Thai healthcare system (and the American one too). Very little understanding of how a healthcare system can work and an innate fear of illness and a forlorn hope that money and technology can save you.

 

“You get what you pay for” is a very ill- founded premise. As I said earlier that is a perception based in the inequitable nature of healthcare in Thailand. Itself a serious fault in the system.

 

One of the many problems inherent in the system is the Thai obsession with “face” – as I said “This situation leads to serious questions about the ethics at Thai hospitals. Treatment of patients can be dictated by finance rather than genuine needs” – “Thailand’s hospitals follow a long Thai tradition of attaching great importance to “face”. Just because they are clean with Corbusier style furnishings and fish tanks, it doesn’t mean they are “the best”.

 

It is part and parcel of this “face” that patients are impressed by the presence of shiny chromium plated machines that go “beep”.

Why?

What are they for?

How often do you need them and are people trained properly to use them and how many people?

 

True healthcare is not solely reliant on technology and much of the “high-end” machines are in fact only relevant for a small number of conditions.

Government hospitals which are lower cost in general, have a wide range of technologies available. Whereas, private hospitals often have limitations to the treatments they offer. There are occasions where a seemingly luxurious private hospital has to pass patients over to government care as they don’t have the facilities to deal with it. Passing patients from one hospital to another is a particularly unsavoury feature of Thai healthcare.

 

The key to good healthcare is diagnosis. The ability to pinpoint an illness quickly and accurately and then proceed on the most appropriate treatment – unaffected by financial considerations or questionable ethics. This doesn’t come with twinkling digital displays or money, it comes with well-trained, ethical doctors. . and we already know that doctors rove from one hospital to another.

 

“Whats up [sic], you sound jealous, ever had a procedure at Bumrungrad, its very good you know.”

I find this line particularly telling. You clearly don’t know anything about healthcare or putting forward an argument. How do you figure “jealousy” as a factor in the evidence I’ve presented?

Secondly I’ve already outlined how pointless anecdotal or personal experience is and a comment like “its [sic] very good you know.” Just shows how tenuous your grasp is of the issues if you think that is a valid remark.

 

Complete drivel

[Thunglom]

30 minutes ago, sungod said:

Complete drivel

I note you are unable to elucidate your comment at all.

[sungod]

4 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

I note you are unable to elucidate your comment at all.

It means you are talking tosh, simple really.

 

Goodnight.

Edited March 15, 2022 by sungod

[kickstart]

On 3/14/2022 at 8:09 AM, ozfarang said:

At what out of pocket cost to you?

If you want to pay through the nose Bumrungrad Hospital is the place to go.

My UK heath insurance company have a list of hospitals they will not pay any claims from ,in Thailand it is Bumrungrag ,just too expensive for what they do .

I had a hip replacement done at a locale privet hospital ,they made a very good job no problems , a lot cheaper than Bumrungrad.

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, sungod said:

It means you are talking tosh, simple really.

 

Goodnight.

Yet you still fail to explain yourself.

I realise it must be annoying when the flaws in your post are displayed for all to see and it is probably a dent to your ego. But rather than outline your case you just resort to invective and ad hominem. It just makes your posts look even more insufficient. But then you are flogging a dead horse.

[herfiehandbag]

22 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Yet you still fail to explain yourself.

I realise it must be annoying when the flaws in your post are displayed for all to see and it is probably a dent to your ego. But rather than outline your case you just resort to invective and ad hominem. It just makes your posts look even more insufficient. But then you are flogging a dead horse.

I read your posts, not least because your first post was in part commenting on what I had said. I didn't reply initially because I really didn't want to get into what had all the makings of a "willy waving contest".

 

But I have to say  @sungod is pretty much on the mark. You talk about evidence, but you don't really present any, just a mismash of opinions and (your) observations covering staffing, their training, language skills and uniforms with nothing really to substantiate them.

 

of course mere "laypeople" are bound to have their views formed by their experience. It is inevitable. My impressions of Thai Hospitals, formed as I explained by considerable personal experience, are overwhelmingly positive. If you are, or were, a clinical healthcare provider then come clean and say so. It would perhaps give your opinions some weight. If not then really your opinion carry the same, or less weight than those of  anyone else.

 

Incidentally, I did have cause to complain. About one thing. A "nurse aid" ( health care assistant - yellow tunic and black trousers) who was an obvious "Tom" ( butch lesbian) made some very offensive and lascivious remarks in my hearing about my teenage daughter. I speak enough Thai to understand them. I complained about it to the head nurse, and the "nurse aid" was moved from working in the bay of the ward I was on.

Edited March 16, 2022 by herfiehandbag

[Thunglom]

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I read your posts, not least because your first post was in part commenting on what I had said. I didn't reply initially because I really didn't want to get into what had all the makings of a "willy waving contest".

 

But I have to say  @sungod is pretty much on the mark. You talk about evidence, but you don't really present any, just a mismash of opinions and (your) observations covering staffing, their training, language skills and uniforms with nothing really to substantiate them.

 

of course mere "laypeople" are bound to have their views formed by their experience. It is inevitable. My impressions of Thai Hospitals, formed as I explained by considerable personal experience, are overwhelmingly positive. If you are, or were, a clinical healthcare provider then come clean and say so. It would perhaps give your opinions some weight. If not then really your opinion carry the same, or less weight than those of  anyone else.

 

Incidentally, I did have cause to complain. About one thing. A "nurse aid" ( health care assistant - yellow tunic and black trousers) who was an obvious "Tom" ( butch lesbian) made some very offensive and lascivious remarks in my hearing about my teenage daughter. I speak enough Thai to understand them. I complained about it to the head nurse, and the "nurse aid" was moved from working in the bay of the ward I was on.

You are the evidence! You demonstrate exactly how and why people are unqualified to make valid criticisms of healthcare - you don't even understand the inherent flaws and lack of value in personal and anecdotal evidence. Nor do you recognise the evidence I've presented. You do however take the classic non-argument of "sealioning" an argument that you don't like but can't disagree with. It would be impossible to have a discussion with you as you don't even speak my language

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Thunglom

[sungod]

7 hours ago, Thunglom said:

It would be impossible to have a discussion with you as you don't even speak my language

We agree on something, I told you it was drivel ????

 

You try and belittle people by your self proclaimed superiority over others, no different from throwing insults.

 

At the end of the day you are just a troll looking for a fight.

 

Goodbye.

Edited March 16, 2022 by sungod

[bunnydrops]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:10 PM, Hummin said:

How do you know this? 

Just one example. I needed a MRI at Bangkok Hospital Korat. I was put on a hospital bus, driven to the government hospital, put in the front of the line for the MRI and then driven back.

[herfiehandbag]

7 hours ago, Thunglom said:

You are the evidence! You demonstrate exactly how and why people are unqualified to make valid criticisms of healthcare - you don't even understand the inherent flaws and lack of value in personal and anecdotal evidence. Nor do you recognise the evidence I've presented. You do however take the classic non-argument of "sealioning" an argument that you don't like but can't disagree with. It would be impossible to have a discussion with you as you don't even speak my language

 

I had to look "Sealioning" up. It is defined (Wikipedia) as: "Sealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable." 

 

You seem to have extended the definition to include merely disagreeing with your views.

 

You are absolutely right - it is quite impossible to have a discussion with you.

 

Sungod is also right, it's drivel, pompous drivel!