Joe Biden says Putin is a 'war criminal'

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

There are bombs being dropped on a daily basis in many more countries

so go start a thread on them. This is about the war crimes and deaths of civilians happening now in Ukraine

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Your memory serves you poorly.  There is no significant opposition to Putin in Russia.

How on earth do you know?

 

Putin does not retain power through popularity, he relies on two things; fear and the transactional support that comes from being useful to the few people who do have the power to remove him.

 

Public demonstrations indicate fear isn’t working while the decimation of Russia’s economy and the humiliation of its military are certainly going to impact support amongst Russia’s controlling elite.

 

Whatever Putin’s position was prior to this illegal invasion you can bet your bottom Ruble that it’s a lot more uncertain following the unmitigated disaster he’s hitched his survival too.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[cmarshall]

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How on earth do you know?

 

Putin does not retain power through popularity, he relies on two things; fear and the transactional support that comes from being useful to the few people who do have the power to remove him.

 

Public demonstrations indicate fear isn’t working while the decimation of Russia’s economy and the humiliation of its military are certainly going to impact support amongst Russia’s controlling elite.

 

Whatever Putin’s position was prior to this illegal invasion you can bet your bottom Ruble that it’s a lot more uncertain following the unmitigated disaster he’s hitched his survival too.

 

 

So, let's make an experiment to test our competing theories of Putin's popularity and its effect on his longevity.

 

When the Russian people or the military or the oligarchs overthrow Putin, you win.  Until then, I win.

[billd766]

16 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, Putin is just an alleged war criminal , it hasnt been proven and it has been denied by the Russians  . 

And I am the real Queen of Sheba, but it hasn't been proven and I deny it anyway.

[Longwood50]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:11 AM, TorquayFan said:

Howls of anguish in Moscow as Joe Biden makes the 'war criminal' comment

Well I am no fan of Putin or his aggression against Ukraine, however Biden pointing the finger is indeed the pot calling the kettle black.  

At least Putin has some reason to be in Ukraine.  It borders Russia and some of Ukraine are made up of predominately people of Russian heritage.  I contrast that to the U.S. involvement in both Iraq, and Afghanistan.  Neither country had anything to do with the 911 terrorist attack but rather became whipping boys. 

If Putin is called out for war atrocities, lets at least say he is not alone in the atrocities of war. 

 

[Jingthing]

7 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Well I am no fan of Putin or his aggression against Ukraine, however Biden pointing the finger is indeed the pot calling the kettle black.  

At least Putin has some reason to be in Ukraine.  It borders Russia and some of Ukraine are made up of predominately people of Russian heritage.  I contrast that to the U.S. involvement in both Iraq, and Afghanistan.  Neither country had anything to do with the 911 terrorist attack but rather became whipping boys. 

If Putin is called out for war atrocities, lets at least say he is not alone in the atrocities of war. 

 

OFF TOPIC

[Bkk Brian]

7 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Well I am no fan of Putin or his aggression against Ukraine, however Biden pointing the finger is indeed the pot calling the kettle black.  

At least Putin has some reason to be in Ukraine.  It borders Russia and some of Ukraine are made up of predominately people of Russian heritage.  I contrast that to the U.S. involvement in both Iraq, and Afghanistan.  Neither country had anything to do with the 911 terrorist attack but rather became whipping boys. 

 If Putin is called out for war atrocities, lets at least say he is not alone in the atrocities of war. 

 

That was not a war crime. Big difference between one drone attack that made a fatal mistake and the continued shelling of civilians in Ukraine with thousands killed and cities flattened.

 

It is only a war crime if it is "intentionally killing civilians"

[Neeranam]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:34 AM, cmarshall said:

Beyond ridiculous that Americans castigate Putin as a war criminal.  Putin is, in fact, a war criminal, but he is a piker by comparison with Pres. George W. Bush.  The only country since Pol Pot's Cambodia to kill upwards of one million innocent people is the USA in the Second Iraq War.  

Hear hear. 

[Hummin]

23 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

That was not a war crime. Big difference between one drone attack that made a fatal mistake and the continued shelling of civilians in Ukraine with thousands killed and cities flattened.

 

It is only a war crime if it is "intentionally killing civilians"

It depends with what eyes you watching trough, and if your feelings is more related to one country than another.

 

Did we se the same reaction during Russia's war on Chechenya? 

 

Most here did not even rise their eyebrow during that war, or I'm wrong? 

 

Ukraine is a bit closer to us, and media is feeding us with a different perspective on this war than many other wars lately. 

 

Our thoughts is a product of what others want you to rhink, and it becomes a mass hypnose eventually.

 

 

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and the replies have been removed.

[billd766]

7 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Well I am no fan of Putin or his aggression against Ukraine, however Biden pointing the finger is indeed the pot calling the kettle black.  

At least Putin has some reason to be in Ukraine.  It borders Russia and some of Ukraine are made up of predominately people of Russian heritage.  I contrast that to the U.S. involvement in both Iraq, and Afghanistan.  Neither country had anything to do with the 911 terrorist attack but rather became whipping boys. 

 

 If Putin is called out for war atrocities, lets at least say he is not alone in the atrocities of war. 

 

Putin has NO reason to be in the Ukraine at all, It is an independent democratic country and what happens in the Ukraine is their own business.

 

I could equally ask why is Russia in Syria. There are no Russians or neo Nazi's over there but Russia is still there. Perhaps President Assad invited them over and they went.

 

The Ukraine did NOT invite the Russians in, the Russians simply invaded.

 

Why then did Putin not invade other countries such as Poland etc which are former Soviet block countries who are are also independent and democratic?

 

Could it be that they are also in the NATO alliance and an attack on one is an attack on all NATO countries?

[Bkk Brian]

52 minutes ago, Hummin said:

It depends with what eyes you watching trough, and if your feelings is more related to one country than another.

 

Did we se the same reaction during Russia's war on Chechenya? 

 

Most here did not even rise their eyebrow during that war, or I'm wrong? 

 

Ukraine is a bit closer to us, and media is feeding us with a different perspective on this war than many other wars lately. 

 

Our thoughts is a product of what others want you to rhink, and it becomes a mass hypnose eventually.

 

 

The eye's to see it with are with the legal definitions of war crimes, simple as that.

[Hummin]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The eye's to see it with are with the legal definitions of war crimes, simple as that.

I agree 100%, a war crime is a crime no matter where it happens, and who it happens to!

[onthedarkside]

A post linking to a non-news media article on a news site has been removed.

 

[ozimoron]

Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not just a war of politics – it's a holy war

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-20/vladimir-putin-invasion-ukraine-politics-holy-war/100921102

[billd766]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not just a war of politics – it's a holy war

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-20/vladimir-putin-invasion-ukraine-politics-holy-war/100921102

Holy war? In a rats anus it is a holy war.

 

So where are all the priests, bishops, cardinals and arch bishops? Are they in the front lines or in the pulpits urging their parishioners to go and fight "gods holy war", or sitting warm and safe well away from the fighting.

 

For all you desktop warriors, religious wars have killed more innocent men women and children than ALL the wars started by politicians and governments.

Edited March 20, 2022 by billd766
Bad spelling

[onthedarkside]

A reminder regarding the posting rules for this subforum (and the same for other "Home Country" subforums):

 

"For topics and events related to the UK and Europe.  No Political discussions. Topics need to be from credible sources and must follow Fair Use which is a headline, 3 sentences and a link."

 

Posts violating these subforum-specific posting rules have been removed, as will be any future such similar posts.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

16 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Here's the opinion of former US Ambassador to the USSR, Jack Matlock on the current Ukraine crisis:

 

For a long-serving U.S. foreign diplomat, he seems to have a particularly blinkered sense of history:

 

"Instead, Ukraine punted. It demanded that, in exchange for nuclear disarmament, it would need ironclad security guarantees. That was the heart of the agreement signed in Moscow early in 1994 by Russia, Ukraine and the United States.

 

In late 1994, the pledges got fleshed out. The accord, known as the Budapest Memorandum, signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United States, promised that none of the nations would use force or threats against Ukraine and all would respect its sovereignty and existing borders. The agreement also vowed that, if aggression took place, the signatories would seek immediate action from the United Nations Security Council to aid Ukraine."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/05/science/ukraine-nuclear-weapons.html

 

Russia reneged on its past commitments with its takeover of Crimea, and now is doing the same again with its invasion of Ukraine.

 

[heybruce]

22 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Well I am no fan of Putin or his aggression against Ukraine, however Biden pointing the finger is indeed the pot calling the kettle black.  

At least Putin has some reason to be in Ukraine.  It borders Russia and some of Ukraine are made up of predominately people of Russian heritage.  I contrast that to the U.S. involvement in both Iraq, and Afghanistan.  Neither country had anything to do with the 911 terrorist attack but rather became whipping boys. 

If Putin is called out for war atrocities, lets at least say he is not alone in the atrocities of war. 

 

A desire to expand the Russian Empire is not a legitimate reason to invade another country.

 

Also, if you think Afghanistan, the country where the Taliban government hosted and protected Al Qaeda while it planned, organized and directed the 911 attack, had nothing to do with 911 you have an amazing ignorance of recent history.  In addition, America didn't use 911 to justify either Iraq war.

 

[cmarshall]

4 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

For a long-serving U.S. foreign diplomat, he seems to have a particularly blinkered sense of history:

 

"Instead, Ukraine punted. It demanded that, in exchange for nuclear disarmament, it would need ironclad security guarantees. That was the heart of the agreement signed in Moscow early in 1994 by Russia, Ukraine and the United States.

 

In late 1994, the pledges got fleshed out. The accord, known as the Budapest Memorandum, signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United States, promised that none of the nations would use force or threats against Ukraine and all would respect its sovereignty and existing borders. The agreement also vowed that, if aggression took place, the signatories would seek immediate action from the United Nations Security Council to aid Ukraine."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/05/science/ukraine-nuclear-weapons.html

 

Russia reneged on its past commitments with its takeover of Crimea, and now is doing the same again with its invasion of Ukraine.

 

And your point is that therefore Ukraine will now somehow be able to drive 150,000 Russians troops from its territory?

[heybruce]

13 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

And your point is that therefore Ukraine will now somehow be able to drive 150,000 Russians troops from its territory?

As the US demonstrated in Afghanistan and Iraq, winning the peace is much more difficult than winning the war.  Even if Russia manages to win the war (there are estimates that Russia lost 10% of its invasion force, killed or wounded, in just a few weeks) it won't be able to win the peace at an acceptable cost.

 

If Putin is smart he will find an excuse to declare victory and clear out of Ukraine.  I don't think he's that smart.

[cmarshall]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

As the US demonstrated in Afghanistan and Iraq, winning the peace is much more difficult than winning the war.  Even if Russia manages to win the war (there are estimates that Russia lost 10% of its invasion force, killed or wounded, in just a few weeks) it won't be able to win the peace at an acceptable cost.

 

If Putin is smart he will find an excuse to declare victory and clear out of Ukraine.  I don't think he's that smart.

It's quite plausible that Putin's goal is limited to the destruction of Ukraine, which he will certainly achieve.  He will annex some parts of Ukraine and leave the rest in rubble.  Mission accomplished.

 

In Afghanistan and Iraq I think the US's goals were actually limited to transferring 8$ trillion to the American military industrial complex, which was a stunning success.

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

It's quite plausible that Putin's goal is limited to the destruction of Ukraine, which he will certainly achieve.  He will annex some parts of Ukraine and leave the rest in rubble.  Mission accomplished.

 

In Afghanistan and Iraq I think the US's goals were actually limited to transferring 8$ trillion to the American military industrial complex, which was a stunning success.

Spot on on your last paragraph. Though there were also some other goals that were also accomplished and I will not get into them as not to go off topic, The real goals are not always apparent to the general public,  

  But it is not plausible  that his goal is the destruction of the Ukraine.  The goals are   to stop the eastward expansion of NATO , and maintain Russia's dominance in the gas and Oil market for that region. 

This is really another petro war.

If it achieves this two goals Russia will have accomplished the goals it set out to achieve . The destruction of Ukraine is a by product of the failure to achieve these goals trough diplomatic negotiation.

And the west has it's fair share of the  blame in this. IMO the west is just as much to blame for the war in the Ukraine as Russia is. It is not like this came as a surprise to anyone who has followed the development of these events in the past 30 years or so.  Experts have warned about it, and Russia had said it would.

And I guaranty you, without a shred of doubt, The Biden administration was not surprised at all. 

Biden was the VP for 8 years, In the Senate for I think 36,   chainman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee .  He has seen the reports by the experts, he has been briefed by the CIA for the past 40 years, He very well knows what's going on. 

Trust me this is part of the geopolitical chess game, and the Ukrainian people and poor Russian conscripts that are losing their lives , are the pawns,

 

 

[ozimoron]

18 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Spot on on your last paragraph. Though there were also some other goals that were also accomplished and I will not get into them as not to go off topic, The real goals are not always apparent to the general public,  

  But it is not plausible  that his goal is the destruction of the Ukraine.  The goals are   to stop the eastward expansion of NATO , and maintain Russia's dominance in the gas and Oil market for that region. 

This is really another petro war.

If it achieves this two goals Russia will have accomplished the goals it set out to achieve . The destruction of Ukraine is a by product of the failure to achieve these goals trough diplomatic negotiation.

And the west has it's fair share of the  blame in this. IMO the west is just as much to blame for the war in the Ukraine as Russia is. It is not like this came as a surprise to anyone who has followed the development of these events in the past 30 years or so.  Experts have warned about it, and Russia had said it would.

And I guaranty you, without a shred of doubt, The Biden administration was not surprised at all. 

Biden was the VP for 8 years, In the Senate for I think 36,   chainman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee .  He has seen the reports by the experts, he has been briefed by the CIA for the past 40 years, He very well knows what's going on. 

Trust me this is part of the geopolitical chess game, and the Ukrainian people and poor Russian conscripts that are losing their lives , are the pawns,

 

 

There will be a repeat of the end of WW2, with a  twist. Putin will have to face the ICJ for war crimes. Additionally, Russia will need to withdraw militarily from the Donbass and Crimea and pay massive reparations to Ukraine. Until all this happens, sanctions will remain. For a long time. Germany will go ahead with reducing its reliance on Russian gas. Russia is finished as a world power and the West will make sure of it. They don't want this to happen again.

[sirineou]

17 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

There will be a repeat of the end of WW2, with a  twist. Putin will have to face the ICJ for war crimes. Additionally, Russia will need to withdraw militarily from the Donbass and Crimea and pay massive reparations to Ukraine. Until all this happens, sanctions will remain. For a long time. Germany will go ahead with reducing its reliance on Russian gas. Russia is finished as a world power and the West will make sure of it. They don't want this to happen again.

If you were to buy into the narrative western media is presenting , the above might sound true.

Putin will face the ICJ for war crimes. as much as trump will go to jail for the thing he did. 

For Russia to withdraw from the Crimea it would have to be utterly defeated and humiliated. Russia is in the Crimea due to historical factors, and the discovery of huge oil and gas fields when Crimea was part of Ukraine., and presented an existential danger of Russia's dominance of the energy market of that region .Crimea was annexed because of that,, all other stated reasons were smoke. 

  No way Putin is giving those oil and gas fields to the control of the  West. There are a lot of dynamics here that most don't understand. 

    In two weeks we are going to Greece for the spring and summer, I just checked on gas prices because we are thinking of buying a car there , rather than renting every time we go there,  It is now almost $8 a gallon!!! Electric bills have tripled. Some of the same is happening around the world and will present a drag on the worlds economy . 

So the question remains, Who will blink first.  

Edited March 20, 2022 by sirineou
typo. .One of many I am sure LOL

[Fat is a type of crazy]

58 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Spot on on your last paragraph. Though there were also some other goals that were also accomplished and I will not get into them as not to go off topic, The real goals are not always apparent to the general public,  

  But it is not plausible  that his goal is the destruction of the Ukraine.  The goals are   to stop the eastward expansion of NATO , and maintain Russia's dominance in the gas and Oil market for that region. 

This is really another petro war.

If it achieves this two goals Russia will have accomplished the goals it set out to achieve . The destruction of Ukraine is a by product of the failure to achieve these goals trough diplomatic negotiation.

And the west has it's fair share of the  blame in this. IMO the west is just as much to blame for the war in the Ukraine as Russia is. It is not like this came as a surprise to anyone who has followed the development of these events in the past 30 years or so.  Experts have warned about it, and Russia had said it would.

And I guaranty you, without a shred of doubt, The Biden administration was not surprised at all. 

Biden was the VP for 8 years, In the Senate for I think 36,   chainman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee .  He has seen the reports by the experts, he has been briefed by the CIA for the past 40 years, He very well knows what's going on. 

Trust me this is part of the geopolitical chess game, and the Ukrainian people and poor Russian conscripts that are losing their lives , are the pawns,

 

 

I find your post offensive because you seem to be joining dots that aren't there, or using past crimes by the United States as an excuse,  or suggest this had been inevitable or that Ukraine should have no decisions in its future. 

I get sick too of 'the general public can't see the real goals' stuff. 

 

First, let us concur that the big players compete to influence the world to their own gain, and that the United States has done lots of bad stuff .

The world has been well aware of tensions between Russia and it's neighbours. There are always tensions and threats in the world.  Can you point to the actions of the west in recent times that made them as guilty as Putin and that made this invasion inevitable and necessary?  

Do you deny Ukraine the right to decide its future in the longer term and not simply be a pawn? Should it be stopped or supported, in the longer term, siding with the west, if it chooses to do so given Russia is a constant threat and unattractive role model. 

It may be sensible not to antagonise the beast at your door but Ukraine was not about to do anything in particular to warrant this. Nor was the United States or other western country.

If you have a deeper understanding of things please point to the threat to Putin and Russia, that made this need to happen, and that makes the west as guilty and responsible as Russia. 

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Can you point to the actions of the west in recent times that made them as guilty as Putin and that made this invasion inevitable and necessary?

Yes indeed.  The western expansion of NATO.  

 

"Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia"

 

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999

 

3 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

If you have a deeper understanding of things please point to the threat to Putin and Russia, that made this need to happen, and that makes the west as guilty and responsible as Russia. 

I direct your tension to the below quates. 

 

"In June 1997, 50 prominent foreign policy experts signed an open letter to Clinton, saying, “We believe that the current U.S. led effort to expand NATO … is a policy error of historic proportions” that would “unsettle European stability.” "

 

"In 2008, Burns, then the American ambassador to Moscow, wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice: “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin) "

 

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

Yes indeed.  The western expansion of NATO.  

 

I know about that. Most who take an active interest know about that.  You may feel it is a culmination of actions over time by the west. You are talking about things in 1997 and 2008. I don't buy it because, though I concur joining NATO may not have been sensible for pragmatic reasons, there was no specific current actions by Ukraine or the west to do so.  At some point too you have to accept and defend a country's write to decide it's own future, even if the autocratic leader next door doesn't like it,  like Poland, Romania, and the Baltic States. Doesn't have to mean supporting NATO membership. 

 

[sirineou]

12 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I know about that. Most who take an active interest know about that.  You may feel it is a culmination of actions over time by the west. You are talking about things in 1997 and 2008. I don't buy it because, though I concur joining NATO may not have been sensible for pragmatic reasons, there was no specific current actions by Ukraine or the west to do so.  At some point too you have to accept and defend a country's write to decide it's own future, even if the autocratic leader next door doesn't like it,  like Poland, Romania, and the Baltic States. Doesn't have to mean supporting NATO membership. 

 

If we knew that.

If we were told by experts that it will happen, why would we be surprised when it happen. 

Biden was VP for 8 years, In the senate for 36 years, Chairman of the powerful foreign relations comity in the Senate, 

   No way this came a surprise to him.

So it begs the question , if he knew it will happen , why did he encourage actions that would lead to the predictable result?

 Is someone encouraging an action that would result in the harm someone else culpable? 

Countries do not exist in a vacuumed, Their right to decide their own future is  always tempered, by the rights of their neighbors.  

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

Spot on on your last paragraph. Though there were also some other goals that were also accomplished and I will not get into them as not to go off topic, The real goals are not always apparent to the general public,  

  But it is not plausible  that his goal is the destruction of the Ukraine.  The goals are   to stop the eastward expansion of NATO , and maintain Russia's dominance in the gas and Oil market for that region. 

This is really another petro war.

If it achieves this two goals Russia will have accomplished the goals it set out to achieve . The destruction of Ukraine is a by product of the failure to achieve these goals trough diplomatic negotiation.

And the west has it's fair share of the  blame in this. IMO the west is just as much to blame for the war in the Ukraine as Russia is. It is not like this came as a surprise to anyone who has followed the development of these events in the past 30 years or so.  Experts have warned about it, and Russia had said it would.

And I guaranty you, without a shred of doubt, The Biden administration was not surprised at all. 

Biden was the VP for 8 years, In the Senate for I think 36,   chainman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee .  He has seen the reports by the experts, he has been briefed by the CIA for the past 40 years, He very well knows what's going on. 

Trust me this is part of the geopolitical chess game, and the Ukrainian people and poor Russian conscripts that are losing their lives , are the pawns,

 

 

Rephrased Russian propaganda.

 

But I’ll agree with you on one thing, Biden has a lifetime of political and administrative experience, which he is employing in his administration’s response to Putin’s unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, for that we need to be thankful.