LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

IMHO this isn't correct. A DTA doesn't exempt anything, it mitigates the risk of paying tax twice on your income Dollar. So I'd be careful, even with US social security, as many sax it is non taxable, it leads me to think that many will have only a tax credit of 0 to show on their return. Don't forget all income remitted must be declared, so another approach would be not to remit and prove it.

The DTA on US SSc is very specific, it may only be taxed by the US.

 

And currently there is no facility to declare exempt income such as US SSc, I try to declare mine every year and it gets ignored.

[Ben Zioner]

28 minutes ago, noobexpat said:

 

Thanks, but i still don't understand the obvious benefit. I see 17% tax stated.

 

So i work for a foreign company, i'm resident in thailand and i remit all that foreign earned salary to thailand. I pay a reduced tax of 17% (instead of the normal thai tax rates that would apply) ....is that right?

 

This is only for one LTR subtype, something like "highly skilled professionals".

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

You can definitely stay on LTR, even LTR/WP, and get a work permit. But you'd have to pay income tax on local income.

Good to know, thanks. So the LTR presumably only impacts imported income and not income earned in country under the WP?

[Pib]

34 minutes ago, noobexpat said:

 

Thanks, but i still don't understand the obvious benefit. I see 17% tax stated.

 

So i work for a foreign company, i'm resident in thailand and i remit all that foreign earned salary to thailand. I pay a reduced tax of 17% (instead of the normal thai tax rates that would apply) ....is that right?

 

Take a reread of the earlier provided references.  That 17% tax rate only applies to the LTR High Skilled Professional category which is for those working for a company with a tax presence "in" Thailand....that 17% tax rate applies to the person's "Thailand-sourced" income.  Their foreign-sourced income is still tax exempt.   And they still have to have an LTR Work Permit issued which is all but guaranteed to be approved after the basic LTR visa is approved.  The LTR Work Permit costs Bt3,000/year.  .

 

All the other LTR visa categories, like Pensioner, Global Citizen, Work From Thailand, etc., are exempt for their foreign-sourced income.  But they too are authorized an LTR Work Permit if desired/applied for in case the also want to work for a company that has a tax basis in Thailand; however,  the person's Thailand tax rate will be the standard rate(s) which can go up to around 35% vs the reduced 17% for the LTR HSP category.

 

 

Edited March 28 by Pib

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Good to know, thanks. So the LTR presumably only impacts imported income and not income earned in country under the WP?

Yes, but the "Highly skilled professional" category is different. But it gives the 17% flat rate.

[noobexpat]

2 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

This is only for one LTR subtype, something like "highly skilled professionals".

 

Yeh was aware of that. The wealthy pensioner/global citizen seemed even less appealing.

[Ben Zioner]

2 minutes ago, noobexpat said:

 

Yeh was aware of that. The wealthy pensioner/global citizen seemed even less appealing.

Unless you are a true pensioner, 100% of income coming from foreign pensions. My case.  Was very easy to get.

[Pib]

1 minute ago, noobexpat said:

 

Yeh was aware of that. The wealthy pensioner/global citizen seemed even less appealing.

 

What category of LTR a person wants to apply for will vary from individual to individual depending on their financials, age, whether they are 100% retired, maybe retired from their previous jobs but would like to also work in Thailand full or part time, etc.  

[noobexpat]

8 minutes ago, Pib said:

Take a reread of the earlier provided references.  That 17% tax rate only applies to the LTR High Skilled Professional category which is for those working for a company with a tax presence "in" Thailand....that 17% tax rate applies to the person's "Thailand-sourced" income.  Their foreign-sourced income is still tax exempt.   And they still have to have an LTR Work Permit issued which is all but guaranteed to be approved after the basic LTR visa is approved.  The LTR Work Permit costs Bt3,000/year.  .

 

All the other LTR visa categories, like Pensioner, Global Citizen, Work From Thailand, etc., are exempt for their foreign-sourced income.  But they too are authorized an LTR Work Permit if desired/applied for in case the also want to work for a company that has a tax basis in Thailand; however, they their Thailand tax rate will be the standard rate(s) which can go up to around 35% vs the reduced 17% for the LTR HSP category.

 

Thanks. Its just 95 pages long ha!

For the wealthy pensioner one ...the 80k usd (equivalent) passive income is not subject to any potential thai tax?? ...do you still file a thai tax return, do you know?

 

 

Wealthy Pensioners

• Must be at least 50 years old
• Yearly passive income of $80,000 (excluding income from employment)
• Minimum investments of $250,000 held in government bonds, foreign direct investment, and/or property in Thailand (only if the applicant’s income is between $40,000 and $80,000)

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

Don't forget all income remitted must be declared,

Nope. Only assessable income remitted may have to be declared -- and only then if you're required to file a tax return. And, yes, my US Social Security is exempt from Thai taxation, per DTA. And, of course, there would be no tax credit for Social Security, since the Thais aren't taxing it.

[Pib]

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long.

1 hour ago, noobexpat said:

 

Thanks. Its just 95 pages long ha!

For the wealthy pensioner one ...the 80k usd (equivalent) passive income is not subject to any potential thai tax?? ...do you still file a thai tax return, do you know?

 

 

Wealthy Pensioners

• Must be at least 50 years old
• Yearly passive income of $80,000 (excluding income from employment)
• Minimum investments of $250,000 held in government bonds, foreign direct investment, and/or property in Thailand (only if the applicant’s income is between $40,000 and $80,000)

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long. 

 

Maybe you are referring to the l....o.....n.....g AseanNow topic which indeed many pages long and continues to get longer as people express their opinions, etc.

[noobexpat]

56 minutes ago, Pib said:

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long.

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long. 

 

Maybe you are referring to the l....o.....n.....g AseanNow topic which indeed many pages long and continues to get longer as people express their opinions, etc.

 

Yes i read the two links you provided, but thats the technical jargon.

Not the features & benefits.

 

The wealthy pensioner one may have been of interest when i'm over 50, but a little rigid in terms of income withdrawals and exchange rate risk (i'm in £). GBP drops and i have to withdraw more than the year before.

 

 

Edited March 28 by noobexpat

[Presnock]

On 2/12/2024 at 3:39 PM, MPoll said:

This thread has 92 pages of questions and stories of people obtaining a version of the LTR. I switched from an OA visa to a pensioner LTR which appears to be fairly common within the pensioner category. The LTR has been available for 18 months. There has not exactly been a tsunami of people applying for it so either the yearly income is a barrier or people don’t know about it. What else is there to say?

In February, I began my application for an LTR under the "wealthy pensioner" category.  The BOI folks were extremely helpful with lots of patience.  On 25 March I received my LTR stamps in my passport.  No more 90-day reports.  As for local taxes, my pension is that of the US govt so under the FTA I do not pay any tax to Thailand.  

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long.

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long. 

 

Maybe you are referring to the l....o.....n.....g AseanNow topic which indeed many pages long and continues to get longer as people express their opinions, etc.

 

1 hour ago, Pib said:

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long.

95 pages?.... the two references I gave are a total of 5 pages long. 

 

Maybe you are referring to the l....o.....n.....g AseanNow topic which indeed many pages long and continues to get longer as people express their opinions, etc.

PIB- you query about having to file an income tax form even though your pension is not taxable - according to the Thai tax code, one only needs to get a Thai tax number within 60 days of receiving ASSESSIBLE income and since your pension is not assessible you don't need to do a tax form.  I am not sure how nor if the Thai revenue department will require us to provide proof that the pension is from the US government.  We will have to wait until the final word is published by the revenue department.

[mudcat]

3 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

IMHO this isn't correct. A DTA doesn't exempt anything, it mitigates the risk of paying tax twice on your income Dollar. So I'd be careful, even with US social security, as many sax it is non taxable, it leads me to think that many will have only a tax credit of 0 to show on their return. Don't forget all income remitted must be declared, so another approach would be not to remit and prove it.

This is incorrect.  U.S. Social Security is taxable only in the U.S. by treaty and that includes the survivor benefit my wife (a Thai-U.S. citizen) who because of her low income will pay no taxes to either Thailand or the U.S

 

This differs from my government pension which is taxed only in the U.S. for me but would have been taxable in Thailand for my wife.

 

Take a look at the attachment

Convention and explanation for Articles 1, 20, 21.docx

[Pib]

29 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

PIB- you query about having to file an income tax form even though your pension is not taxable - according to the Thai tax code, one only needs to get a Thai tax number within 60 days of receiving ASSESSIBLE income and since your pension is not assessible you don't need to do a tax form.  I am not sure how nor if the Thai revenue department will require us to provide proof that the pension is from the US government.  We will have to wait until the final word is published by the revenue department.

That was noobexpat that had the query; not me.  

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, noobexpat said:

For the wealthy pensioner one ...the 80k usd (equivalent) passive income is not subject to any potential thai tax?? ...do you still file a thai tax return, do you know?

 No. You don't file a tax return that includes non assessable income. This might be income excluded via a DTA, like US govt pensions. Or income excluded by a Royal Decree, like that under a LTR visa. Thai tax returns have no lines on which to put income not subject to taxation. And, as Mike said: "And currently there is no facility to declare exempt income." And, if you figure the cost/reward for ever requesting such information -- doubtful it will ever occur. 

[noobexpat]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

 

PIB- you query about having to file an income tax form even though your pension is not taxable - according to the Thai tax code, one only needs to get a Thai tax number within 60 days of receiving ASSESSIBLE income and since your pension is not assessible you don't need to do a tax form.  I am not sure how nor if the Thai revenue department will require us to provide proof that the pension is from the US government.  We will have to wait until the final word is published by the revenue department.

 

That was for me. Thanks. 

[noobexpat]

Thanks for info everyone.

Devils advocate then: i switch to retirement visa when i get to +50 but all the funds i remit for many years (+10) are not assessable in thailand anyway - because of the format of those funds.

 

Benefit of LTR would be no 90 day and cheaper.

Disadvantage would be structured minimum of 80k usd.

 

Googling suggests wealthy pensioner type needs health insurance or 100k usd on deposit in thailand.

 

 

Edited March 28 by noobexpat
Extra bit

[Presnock]

11 minutes ago, noobexpat said:

Thanks for info everyone.

Devils advocate then: i switch to retirement visa when i get to +50 but all the funds i remit for many years (+10) are not assessable in thailand anyway - because of the format of those funds.

 

Benefit of LTR would be no 90 day and cheaper.

Disadvantage would be structured minimum of 80k usd.

 

Googling suggests wealthy pensioner type needs health insurance or 100k usd on deposit in thailand.

 

 

Yes, for health insurance, although I have a US govt sponsored health insurance ..since 1996..but there is no policy provided so I gave them the benefits (17 pages) highlighted benefits within the pages that explained that if I had to go to the hospital, EVERYTHING would be paid for by the insurer.  But they needed a letter from the insurance company spelling out that at least 50,000 baht coverage for hospitalization locally was provided and asked for an ending date of the policy so the final is 10 years hence.  Actually the BOI folks were extremely helpful and patient.  Only 3 weeks or so from retirement  O

to the 10-year LTR!

1 hour ago, mudcat said:

This is incorrect.  U.S. Social Security is taxable only in the U.S. by treaty and that includes the survivor benefit my wife (a Thai-U.S. citizen) who because of her low income will pay no taxes to either Thailand or the U.S

 

This differs from my government pension which is taxed only in the U.S. for me but would have been taxable in Thailand for my wife.

 

Take a look at the attachment

Convention and explanation for Articles 1, 20, 21.docx 34.23 kB · 2 downloads

Excellent, no need for me to read it for you...most folks just won't read it for themselves.  Yes a native Thai can use form 7 I think for the US IRS to cease taxing the pension benefit and then since she is a thai, will need to pay thai taxes.

[Pib]

35 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Yes, for health insurance, although I have a US govt sponsored health insurance ..since 1996..but there is no policy provided so I gave them the benefits (17 pages) highlighted benefits within the pages that explained that if I had to go to the hospital, EVERYTHING would be paid for by the insurer.  But they needed a letter from the insurance company spelling out that at least 50,000 baht coverage for hospitalization locally was provided and asked for an ending date of the policy so the final is 10 years hence.  Actually the BOI folks were extremely helpful and patient.  Only 3 weeks or so from retirement  O

to the 10-year LTR!

 

 

So did BOI finally accept your US govt sponsored insurance coverage?  If so, is that because the insurance company provided a special letter OR just some standard policy cover sheet?

[Presnock]

19 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

So did BOI finally accept your US govt sponsored insurance coverage?  If so, is that because the insurance company provided a special letter OR just some standard policy cover sheet?

Actually, They wrote a nice letter explaining that the insurance policy covers unlimited including 50,000 USD for hospitalization.  They didn't put an ending date only xxx-xxx-xxx so the ltr folks just put int the 10-year final date. 2034!  Several other retired US govt also said they had a real problem using the same insurance company so am sure that the office in the US understood what was needed and it didn't violate any of the coverage.  No more 90-day reports and since I did it online each time, actually less than 90-days each time.

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, mudcat said:

This differs from my government pension which is taxed only in the U.S. for me but would have been taxable in Thailand for my wife.

 

Is she a dual US/Thai citizen? Then, taking a little liberty with the Thai/US technical explanation, which explains that a private pension paid to a US survivor is treated the same as if paid to the primary:

Quote

Paragraph 1 [Article 20] provides that private pensions and other similar remuneration paid in
consideration of past employment are generally taxable only in the residence State of the
recipient. It is understood that the rules of this paragraph apply even if the payee of the pension
is not the person who performed the past employment. For example, a pension paid to a
surviving spouse who is a resident of Thailand

 

Nothing similar in the govt pension section -- but believe this to be an obvious oversight. Thus, my survivor Air Force pension to my dual citizen wife should be treated the same as for me, i.e., taxable only by the US.

Anyway, that's the guidance I've given her. Unlikely that would ever be an item the RD would discuss with her.

 

On a related note -- the wife has two pension checks paid by the US Govt, namely, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). These are for the 35 years she flew with PanAm and United, both of whom declared bankruptcy and dumped their pensions on the PBGC. It would be easy for her to wave these pensions checks as "US Govt paid pensions." Well, yeah -- but the fine print in the DTA says, "Pensions paid for service with the govt." So, guidance here is: These pensions are subject to Thai taxation.

[mudcat]

The Thailand/U.S. tax convention treats Social Security benefits and Government service pensions in two adjoining articles - 20 and 21.

 

I based my comment that Thai/U.S. citizens beneficiaries of a government pension (such as mine from a local water utility) they, as a Thai national would have the pension taxed in Thailand rather than the U.S.  In her case she will not be receiving her 50% of my pension as we married after we retired, so the difference is academic and we get the benefit of my government service pension while I am alive and she needs to struggle along on the ThB65,000 Social Security survivor benefit.   Should you be reading the convention differently I suggest that you do a close reading of the relevant sections I posted earlier in this thread.

 

TAX CONVENTION - ARTICLE 21

Government Service

 

2. a) Any pension paid by, or out of funds created by, a Contracting State or political subdivision or a local authority thereof to an individual in respect of services rendered to that State or subdivision or authority shall be taxable only in that State.

b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the individual is a resident of, and a national of, that other State.

[JimGant]

43 minutes ago, mudcat said:

I based my comment that Thai/U.S. citizens beneficiaries of a government pension (such as mine from a local water utility) they, as a Thai national would have the pension taxed in Thailand rather than the U.S.

 

Only if they were not dual citizens. Yes, if my wife weren't a dual citizen, her survivor pension off my Air Force pension would be primarily taxed in Thailand. But her US citizenship retains primary taxation rights by the US of her survivor pension.

 

Quote

As a general matter, the result will be the same whether Article 20 or 21 applies, since social security benefits are taxable exclusively by the source country and so are government pensions. The result will differ only when the payment is made to a citizen and resident of the other Contracting State, who is not also a citizen of the paying State. In such a case, social security benefits continue to be taxable at source while government pensions become taxable only in the residence country.

 

"Should you be reading the convention differently I suggest that you do a close reading of the relevant sections I posted earlier in this thread."

 

Is that close enough?

[mudcat]

As we all know, Thai Personal Income Tax is self-reporting, so it is up to you and your tax advisor to determine where pensions are taxed.  My reading is that dual-nationals pay taxes on pensions received in the country of residence, you believe that sub-paragraph b stating that dual-nationals pay tax in state of residence does not apply to dual-nationals.  For me this is academic as my wife is not be eligible for part of my government pension, so I defer to your interpretation for your spouse's tax liability.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, mudcat said:

My reading is that dual-nationals pay taxes on pensions received in the country of residence, you believe that sub-paragraph b stating that dual-nationals pay tax in state of residence does not apply to dual-nationals. 

 

Sub-para b in the actual treaty is short on explanation, as are most of the Articles in the treaty. That's why they wrote the "technical explanation," to better explain matters, like taxation of dual nationals, which they explain quite clearly -- and clearly refute your understanding of the situation. In case you're not familiar with this technical explanation, here's the link:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf

 

With many Yanks married to dual citizens, it's important that their wives clearly understand that the US has exclusive taxation rights on both survivor Social Security payments and survivor gov't pension payments going to these widows. One more briefing item on your death instructions.

 

 

 

[Presnock]

Among the common reporting standards, is banks around the world are going to share banking information - not sure how that will work but if my bank shares my banking practices,  it is easy to see from where all funds deposited come from the US Government - either for my govt pension or tax refunds each year. Then the amount sent to my account here in Thailand is already here so it seems to me that the Thai government should be able to identify non-assessible income (from a US govt pension only) and therefore I shouldn't have to provide the Thai RD with anything.  Guess we just have to wait to see if we have problems or not.  

[TravelerEastWest]

If someone is over 50, has health insurance in Thailand of over the correct amount, and more than $80,000 in annual interest income.

 

But is from Europe and not required to file a tax return anywhere - how do you correctly for the BOI show (in English) your annual income - without a tax return and is that allowed or is a tax return required?

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

If someone is over 50, has health insurance in Thailand of over the correct amount, and more than $80,000 in annual interest income.

 

But is from Europe and not required to file a tax return anywhere - how do you correctly for the BOI show (in English) your annual income - without a tax return and is that allowed or is a tax return required?

I showed my yearly pension  and matching bank account statements. Unlike Immigration BOI show some sensible flexibility. Now I was helped by the fact that they had dozens of identical cases (Pension + Health plan) shortly after I applied.

Edited March 30 by Ben Zioner