LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[K2938]

2 hours ago, aublumberg said:

Just 14% success rate. Would love to know what the rate is for the other three LTR categories.

While just a guess, I would speculate that the success rate in the other categories is a little higher with the key problem for the highly skilled professionals appearing to be the requirement of "Public company on a stock exchange or; Private company in operation for at least three years with combined revenue at least USD 150 million in the last three years".

This is for example some user feedback from youtube (user comment to the "this new Thai visa could change your life" video on youtube):

 

And some more user feedback from fb:

 

 

Seems to imply that if the LTR visa is to become more successful, the BOI would really need to significantly increase its flexibility in terms of its interpretation of the criteria set and the documents required.

[Misty]

14 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

You are correct, it seems to have vanished, but I wonder if that is only for certain types of Visas where that field is not needed. I know the LTR Visas at one time did include a Government Employment category, which has now vanished, or was I heavily intoxicated when I saw that one 

Could be...to me it looked like the programmers replaced it with "Work Permit".  I took the "My Agency" to mean if the applicant was using an intermediary agent.  It does seem like there's an attempt being made to get third party agents involved to help applicants and smooth the process.  I have mixed feelings on that - it may indeed help applicants, which is good. But if using "agents" starts to pervert the system in some way, not for that at all.

[Misty]

2 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

If as the article says 56% of applications were from Domestic Applications, that means that many like me who were doing the Non Imm O-A, or O visa extensions decided that this LTR Visa was better in the long run.  I know I did it because of the ability it creates to travel and then only have to report once a year while getting 5 years and then 5 years more for the tidy little sum of 50K Thb versus paying 7K more over the 10 year period and having to extend yearly as well as doing the 90 day reports and paying for the ME Re-entry permit...to me it was a no brainer, and then for the same price (50K Thb) and features you can add up to 4 dependents, So for 100K Thb, you and your spouse get up to 10 years......perfect for those that go back and forth.  The TE Visa runs 600K Thb up to 2 Mthb.  With this Visa you can save money and use it for Travel, or for increasing your wealth.  Again this is just my view, but it is my reality.

I'm also not sure this program has been widely advertised outside of Thailand. Perhaps that was a good thing initially, since there seem to be many kinks that need working out.  From IT hiccups to no ability to open local bank accounts to no digital work permits, there have been a number of program items not yet really ready for prime time.  So maybe what has happened so far has been more of a "soft opening."

[Karma80]

It's pretty clear what happened to the LTR, outside of wealthy investors or retirees who were already accessing retirement visas anyway. It got bounced between a bunch of civil servants and committee members that just piled on requirements that are out of touch with reality, or the target demographic.

 

Meanwhile, neighbours and other countries are waking up to the reality of how much money can be poured into the economy from higher-earning remote or independent workers. It's quite sad to see this potentially transformative moment slip away due to the shortsightedness in the program criteria. I hope that someone fixes it, but on past form, the loss of face involved with an overhaul to make the program work may just be too much.

[anrcaccount]

5 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

If as the article says 56% of applications were from Domestic Applications, that means that many like me who were doing the Non Imm O-A, or O visa extensions decided that this LTR Visa was better in the long run.  I know I did it because of the ability it creates to travel and then only have to report once a year while getting 5 years and then 5 years more for the tidy little sum of 50K Thb versus paying 7K more over the 10 year period and having to extend yearly as well as doing the 90 day reports and paying for the ME Re-entry permit...to me it was a no brainer, and then for the same price (50K Thb) and features you can add up to 4 dependents, So for 100K Thb, you and your spouse get up to 10 years......perfect for those that go back and forth.  The TE Visa runs 600K Thb up to 2 Mthb.  With this Visa you can save money and use it for Travel, or for increasing your wealth.  Again this is just my view, but it is my reality.

Everything you say is correct-  for you, this visa is surely suitable.

 

However you, as an existing long term resident already committed to Thailand - you're not the target market.

 

The intent of this program was to attract new residents, not recategorise visas of existing ones. 

 

Currently it appears the program is falling well short of doing this. 

[ThailandRyan]

Just now, anrcaccount said:

Everything you say is correct-  for you, this visa is surely suitable.

 

However you, as an existing long term resident already committed to Thailand - you're not the target market.

 

The intent of this program was to attract new residents, not recategorise visas of existing ones. 

 

Currently it appears the program is falling well short of doing this. 

I have had only 1 friend from the US apply, the others decided Panama was a better place to retire as well as Costa Rica.

[K2938]

37 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

The intent of this program was to attract new residents, not recategorise visas of existing ones. 

 

Currently it appears the program is falling well short of doing this. 

And since there are only a limited number of visa holders of existing visas which can be re-categorised, this means that once this re-categorisation wave is over, the applicant rate will even further slow down.  Really kind of by half given that currently 56% of applications are in this re-categorisation category. 

And any advertising campaign is hardly likely to be able to rectify this in any meaningful way as advertising does not address the fundamental problem of too restrictive conditions of the program for many. 

So without any changes much more likely that over five years there will be 10 000 visas issued instead of the aimed for 1 million which would only be about 1% of the target

[Karma80]

3 hours ago, K2938 said:

So without any changes much more likely that over five years there will be 10 000 visas issued instead of the aimed for 1 million which would only be about 1% of the target

I guess this level of failure will mean it can't be blamed on external factors and they might be forced to revisit the criteria sooner rather than later when they twiddle their thumbs having run out of retirees.

[Boomer6969]

4 hours ago, K2938 said:

So without any changes much more likely that over five years there will be 10 000 visas issued instead of the aimed for 1 million which would only be about 1% of the target

And I don't see what changes could improve that; so the number of visas issued will remain low. Which is bad news for those like me who have gotten an LTR, as we will be constantly facing difficulties with IOs who won't have any idea of what an LTR is. The only sensible place to cross the border will be the priority channel at  Swampy, and for any other formality we will have to go to the Silom office.

[anotherexpat4444]

status changed from processing to pending - 

but no request for documents .  

 

 

[ThailandRyan]

58 minutes ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

status changed from processing to pending - 

but no request for documents .  

 

 

might be in the final step of review, lets pray your notification of completion and approval comes soon.

[keemapoot]

10 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

And I don't see what changes could improve that; so the number of visas issued will remain low. Which is bad news for those like me who have gotten an LTR, as we will be constantly facing difficulties with IOs who won't have any idea of what an LTR is. The only sensible place to cross the border will be the priority channel at  Swampy, and for any other formality we will have to go to the Silom office.

Yes, this is a small concern of mine even though my application is still pending. I think we can all see that the LTR will likely remain a fringe visa, and will not become widely known in Thailand. Things like renewing drivers licenses and other admin details might be more difficult with a relatively unknown visa. And eventually, there is another factor that one well-known Thailand-based legal advisor has noted: that of all the visas, the long-term best bet might be the simple non-o retirement one, because as requirements morph and get added like insurance, or higher deposit requirements, there is a possibility that the current holders of non-o's will be somewhat grandfathered and new regs might not apply to them. Of course, this is just speculation, but the positives of the LTR are looking dimmer in my view right now.

[Pib]

13 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

And eventually, there is another factor that one well-known Thailand-based legal advisor has noted: that of all the visas, the long-term best bet might be the simple non-o retirement one, because as requirements morph and get added like insurance, or higher deposit requirements, there is a possibility that the current holders of non-o's will be somewhat grandfathered and new regs might not apply to them.

Don't count on any grandfathering with any requirement change.

 

In Oct 2019 when the medical insurance requirement for those with a Non-OA retirement visa/extension of stay came into effect there was no grandfathering.

 

When the requirement was announced several months before 1 Oct 2019 some folks on OA's strongly felt they would be grandfathered...even some visa agents thought that way also. But we see how that turned out--no grandfathering with the exception of the Phuket IO.

[keemapoot]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Don't count on any grandfathering with any requirement change.

 

In Oct 2019 when the medical insurance requirement for those with a Non-OA retirement visa/extension of stay came into effect there was no grandfathering.

 

When the requirement was announced several months before 1 Oct 2019 some folks on OA's strongly felt they would be grandfathered...even some visa agents thought that way also. But we see how that turned out--no grandfathering with the exception of the Phuket IO.

Sure. Good point. No way you can count on anything. I suppose the ultimate fall-back position long term might be those of us who are married to Thais, as it seems unlikely Thai immigration would ever take the position that they would make it onerous for those who are married to be with their Thai spouses and families. If they doubled the deposit requirements of the marriage extension it would still only just be at the level of a retirement non-o.

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

Don't count on any grandfathering with any requirement change.

 

In Oct 2019 when the medical insurance requirement for those with a Non-OA retirement visa/extension of stay came into effect there was no grandfathering.

 

When the requirement was announced several months before 1 Oct 2019 some folks on OA's strongly felt they would be grandfathered...even some visa agents thought that way also. But we see how that turned out--no grandfathering with the exception of the Phuket IO.

Whilst I agree that IO (with the exception of Phuket) didn't grandfather existing Non-Imm OA holders from new Health Insurance requirements, the last time that they increased the money in the bank requirements for retirees they did grandfather existing OA/O holders so (IMHO) they are more likely to grandfather it again than not. 

 

As an aside, the introduction of Health Insurance for Non-IMM OA holders just didn't make sense, I mean why Introduce it for people extending their Non-Imm OA visa & not for those extending their Non-Imm O's, are Non-Imm O holders somehow immune to getting ill (hope so ???? ) 

 

NB I do believe that everybody should have some form of Health Insurance be it via a policy or a fixed sum for Self insuring, I've always wanted them to introduce someway of proving this (like you can do with the MM2H scheme in Malaysia) BUT looking at things like the Long Term Resident visa, it seems if they do you will need $100,000, which would be inline with what is required for the LTR & (I believe) what's needed for a Non-Imm OA nowadays. 

 

[Pib]

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Whilst I agree that IO (with the exception of Phuket) didn't grandfather existing Non-Imm OA holders from new Health Insurance requirements, the last time that they increased the money in the bank requirements for retirees they did grandfather existing OA/O holders so (IMHO) they are more likely to grandfather it again than not. 

 

That OA Retirement grandfathering of income was for folks who entered before 21 Oct 1998 and consecutively extended since. 

'

1998 is like a "generation ago" IMO regarding how immigration now thinks although that income grandfathering clause for an OA Retirement Extension of Stay is still in effect.   However, people who got grandfathered back in 1998 would now be at least 84 years of age....probably very few of such folks left in Thailand. 

 

[Misty]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

Don't count on any grandfathering with any requirement change.

 

In Oct 2019 when the medical insurance requirement for those with a Non-OA retirement visa/extension of stay came into effect there was no grandfathering.

 

When the requirement was announced several months before 1 Oct 2019 some folks on OA's strongly felt they would be grandfathered...even some visa agents thought that way also. But we see how that turned out--no grandfathering with the exception of the Phuket IO.

After nearly 30 years living and working in Thailand on mostly NonB visa extensions, and owning and operating a Thai company for about half of that, definitely agree that it's wise not to count on really much of anything here, and to plan for a wide variety of potential outcomes.

 

That said, I see a huge difference between a NonB visa good for 90 days only, but extended annually, and a 10 year visa program under the BoI.  I'm not saying there won't be changes, but to me these simply are not at all the same thing. 

[Mike Teavee]

38 minutes ago, Pib said:

That OA Retirement grandfathering of income was for folks who entered before 21 Oct 1998 and consecutively extended since. 

'

1998 is like a "generation ago" IMO regarding how immigration now thinks although that income grandfathering clause for an OA Retirement Extension of Stay is still in effect.   However, people who got grandfathered back in 1998 would now be at least 84 years of age....probably very few of such folks left in Thailand. 

 

I agree that it was a long time ago but think that they are more likely to do the same for current long term (>4 years) Non-Imm O/OA holders than to raise their limits.

 

I just don't think they thought through the impact of introducing mandatory insurance to existing retirees but the implications of raising the money in the bank is so "In Your Face" that it's impossible to ignore. 

 

Also need to consider that any lifting of the 800K would likely be matched by a equivalent uplift in the income requirements (E.g. if they made the minimum 1Million then the monthly income minimum would become 85K pm) doable for people planning their retirement, not so much for guys who are already on a fixed income. 

 

 

 

Appreciate this is the LTR thread and we've strayed OT but for me, one of the benefits of maintaining a Non-IMM O visa is the fact that (I believe) I'll be grandfathered from any future changes to the Visa, obviously I could be completely wrong about this only time will tell.

 

 

 

 

 

[VinnieK]

You don't hear about it because not many of us have assets of 1 mil $.

Capisce?

[ThailandRyan]

15 minutes ago, VinnieK said:

You don't hear about it because not many of us have assets of 1 mil $.

Capisce?

You leave me a little confused by your post.  Are you saying the only people who here about the LTR Visas are wealthy?  If thats not it can you explain your post please.

[Karma80]

17 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

And I don't see what changes could improve that; so the number of visas issued will remain low. Which is bad news for those like me who have gotten an LTR, as we will be constantly facing difficulties with IOs who won't have any idea of what an LTR is. The only sensible place to cross the border will be the priority channel at  Swampy, and for any other formality we will have to go to the Silom office.

Easy. Remove the requirement for the employer of a foreign working professional to be a publicly listed company / $150m financials. You then get access to every decent earning remote worker. It would transform the program to a success. Not everyone is retirement age.

[Boomer6969]

1 hour ago, Karma80 said:

Easy. Remove the requirement for the employer of a foreign working professional to be a publicly listed company / $150m financials.

Ok, so how would you assess whether the applicant is likely to remain employed during the five years of their permission to stay? I reckon LTR is quite lenient, especially with regards to income; 80k USD isn't a high income at all. 

[keemapoot]

24 minutes ago, Boomer6969 said:

Ok, so how would you assess whether the applicant is likely to remain employed during the five years of their permission to stay? I reckon LTR is quite lenient, especially with regards to income; 80k USD isn't a high income at all. 

I suppose you could implement a yearly income check of some sort for those, but I agree with Karma above, this would open the floodgates on all the remote digital nomads and others who make decent money, many of whom would love to stay in Thailand.

[JJJJJJJJ]

26 minutes ago, Boomer6969 said:

Ok, so how would you assess whether the applicant is likely to remain employed during the five years of their permission to stay? I reckon LTR is quite lenient, especially with regards to income; 80k USD isn't a high income at all. 

I don't believe you need to meet the criteria for the 5 years, or even 10 years. You just need to meet the requirement at the time of application. After that, even if you lose your job and earn zero income, you can still get 5+5 year Visa. 

 

Look at the law https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/Announcement of the Office of the Board of Investment_No.3-2565 (EN).pdf

 

[Boomer6969]

38 minutes ago, JJJJJJJJ said:

I don't believe you need to meet the criteria for the 5 years, or even 10 years. You just need to meet the requirement at the time of application. After that, even if you lose your job and earn zero income, you can still get 5+5 year Visa. 

That's right, but it is exactly why they want the employment to be robust, they have to limit the risk of having unemployed people roaming the Kingdom while on 5 year stays.

[JJJJJJJJ]

2 minutes ago, Boomer6969 said:

That's right, but it is exactly why they want the employment to be robust, they have to limit the risk of having unemployed people roaming the Kingdom while on 5 year stays.

Actually for 10 years. When renewal after the first 5 years, it automatically approves your second 5 years. 

[Boomer6969]

50 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

I agree with Karma above, this would open the floodgates on all the remote digital nomads and others who make decent money, many of whom would love to stay in Thailand.

IMHO most of that crowd are already here, on all sorts of visas..

[Boomer6969]

3 minutes ago, JJJJJJJJ said:

Actually for 10 years. When renewal after the first 5 years, it automatically approves your second 5 years. 

But they'll check your credentials again.

[JJJJJJJJ]

10 minutes ago, Boomer6969 said:

But they'll check your credentials again.

It looks like they only check after 10 years. For the second 5 years, it seems not. But not for sure. 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/Announcement of the Office of the Board of Investment_No.3-2565 (EN).pdf

 

Article 4 and 5. 

[mrmagyar]

1 hour ago, Boomer6969 said:

Ok, so how would you assess whether the applicant is likely to remain employed during the five years of their permission to stay? I reckon LTR is quite lenient, especially with regards to income; 80k USD isn't a high income at all. 

I can see quite a few options here:

 

1. Merge WGC with WFTP and lower the combined bar

($500k assets + $80k salary without company revenue requirement)

 

2. Have a sliding scale for both?

($500k assets + $80k salary OR $250k assets + $120k salary OR $100k assets + $200k salary)

 

3. Have a sliding scale within the WFTP

($150m/3y Revenue + $80k salary OR $50m/3y Revenue + $150k salary OR $10m/3y Revenue + $250k salary)

 

There's an awful lot of mechanics they could do to bring dramatically more potential applicants within the application parameters.

 

I'm sure an organisation operating at government level could obtain some global data that would allow them to draw up a Venn diagram to try and encompass a sufficient number of target audience to at least make their goals possible.

 

At present, you can be the owner of a foreign based enterprise making $5-10m/year profit on $40m revenue and you don't fall within their criteria unless you're willing to invest $500k in the country upfront.

 

That, to me, is poorly designed.