NATO - time to move in?

[bradiston]

Can't see a problem with rolling a few armoured divisions across the Polish and Romanian borders into Ukraine, with Zelensky's express permission, if not invitation. Without even firing a shot it would surely halt Putin in his tracks. Ukraine is NOT his territory despite his claims, so he could have no complaints. He's rolling up to NATO's borders in Romania and Poland, while the mere possibility of NATO rolling up to Russian borders with Ukraine, which could not have happened for many years to come, if at all, is what he claims in part provoked his invasion.

 

Not sure if this is an appropriate subject matter for a Thai forum, but couldn't find anywhere else to post it. I'm not interested in flaming, trolling or other forms of online punch-ups. But I read every day of the worsening situation in Ukraine and just wonder where we, as more than likely expats of countries closely affected by these events, stand. 

[KhunLA]

Quote

it would surely halt Putin in his tracks

... or start WWIII

[Lacessit]

Everyone in the world is affected by the war in Ukraine; however, what you are proposing could inflame the situation further.

The Ukrainians are doing a good job of bleeding the Russian army. It can only advance with artillery. I'd suggest continuing the supply of weapons to the Ukrainians. All they need is the tools.

[mrfill]

I can see a problem.

7000 nuclear missiles on standby and a commander daft enough to use a few.

[3NUMBAS]

you have to remember putin and drunks are heavy drinkers with their brains addled by years of vodka so not able to make sensible decisions

 

and    he dont know how depleted his weapons and army are  as hes cut off from relality so making  ever more empty threats about further invasions

 

a street fighting bully boy ,ex KGB ,always  making threats to do this and that

[salavan]

Supply arms to Ukraine  and prolong the war that would help keep oil prices high Good news for the oil companies 

[billd766]

7 minutes ago, salavan said:

Supply arms to Ukraine  and prolong the war that would help keep oil prices high Good news for the oil companies 

What is your alternative then? Abandon the Ukraine to the tender mercies of Putin?

 

And if then Putin attacks Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Germany do you simply stand by and let him take those countries, just in case he presses that red button?

[billd766]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:58 PM, Lacessit said:

Everyone in the world is affected by the war in Ukraine; however, what you are proposing could inflame the situation further.

The Ukrainians are doing a good job of bleeding the Russian army. It can only advance with artillery. I'd suggest continuing the supply of weapons to the Ukrainians. All they need is the tools.

I am not sure if the NATO charter would permit attacking Russia directly.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

I am not sure if the NATO charter would permit attacking Russia directly.

It wouldn't but it also would not preclude a "coalition of the willing" whether NATO members or not. This is what Bush achieved in Iraq and the force included NATO members.

[steven100]

NATO - time to move in?

 

I believe it is past that time ....  Invoke article 5 and Russia will be running for cover.   imo

Blow them out of the water and teach them a lesson they won't forget. 

[ozimoron]

15 minutes ago, steven100 said:

NATO - time to move in?

 

I believe it is past that time ....  Invoke article 5 and Russia will be running for cover.   imo

Blow them out of the water and teach them a lesson they won't forget. 

If things get worse at the nuclear plant, NATO may just regard that as a threat to member nations and invoke article 5. The danger from a chernobyl x 10 is too great not to.

[Lacessit]

21 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I am not sure if the NATO charter would permit attacking Russia directly.

You are probably right. However, if Putin were to order an attack on any country in the NATO alliance, that would change everything.

Another miscalculation by Putin and his military. They presumably thought they would have air supremacy. They don't, so interdicting the flow of armaments from Western countries into Ukraine is that much more difficult.

It seems the Russians learned nothing from the Berlin Airlift. There, the American proficiency with logistics came as a stunning shock, and ended up breaking the blockade imposed by the Soviets. Today, the ineptness of Russian logistics, compounded by Ukrainian attacks on supply chains, is one of the big factors in the failures they are experiencing.

 

[DezLez]

31 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

This is what Bush achieved in Iraq and the force included NATO members.

They were acting as individual Countries in support of action in Iraq.  They were NOT acting as NATO,  No correlation!

[DezLez]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It seems the Russians learned nothing from the Berlin Airlift. There, the American proficiency

It was not just the "the American proficiency" which achieved the successful outcome of the "Berlin Airlift" it was;  

The Western Allies organised the Berlin Airlift from 26 June 1948 to 30 September 1949 to carry supplies to the people of West Berlin. American and British air forces flew over Berlin more than 250,000 times,

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, DezLez said:

They were acting as individual Countries in support of action in Iraq.  They were NOT acting as NATO,  No correlation!

That was my point, they were NATO members acting outside the auspices of NATO. It happened then and can happen again.

[DezLez]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

That was my point, they were NATO members acting outside the auspices of NATO. It happened then and can happen again.

The fact they were members of NATO has NOTHING to do with it.  They were acting independently of NATO,

 

They could have been members of a bridge club for that matter!

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by DezLez

[ozimoron]

Just now, DezLez said:

The fact they were members of NATO has NOTHING to do with it.  They were acting independently of NATO,

I'm in fierce agreement and never said or implied otherwise.

[steven100]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I am not sure if the NATO charter would permit attacking Russia directly.

don't be mislead .....   if any NATO country was subject to attack by BM-27 Uragan rockets or similar .. do you really think NATO will sit back and take a wait and see attitude ... I doubt it.

The best thing that could happen is if Russia accidentally or otherwise fires on a borderline country with Ukraine.    imo

[DezLez]

24 minutes ago, steven100 said:

The best thing that could happen is if Russia accidentally or otherwise fires on a borderline country with Ukraine. 

Why is that the best thing?

Do you really want WW111?

 

[steven100]

2 minutes ago, DezLez said:

Why is that the best thing?

Do you really want WW111?

 

well what is the alternative ?  let Russia continue it's killing and murdering civilians from neighboring countries.  Stop it in it's tracks I say.

[salavan]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

What is your alternative then? Abandon the Ukraine to the tender mercies of Putin?

 

And if then Putin attacks Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Germany do you simply stand by and let him take those countries, just in case he presses that red button?

They arnt going to attack Germany  more scaremongering they can even beat ukrain. 

AS for the ukrain it's full of gangsters  same as Russia let them have it. 

[Northstar1]

Chechnya, Georgia crimea eastern Ukraine, and now the whole country 

where and when will they stop?

it’s time to end this vicious regime 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, steven100 said:

NATO - time to move in?

 

I believe it is past that time ....  Invoke article 5 and Russia will be running for cover.   imo

Blow them out of the water and teach them a lesson they won't forget. 

I don't think that Putin has forgotten his 7,000 plus nuclear missiles or the red button.

 

It is a mutual deterrent and IMHO he would be willing to use it rather than lose.

 

The direct effects of his missiles going off plus the allies missiles as well including the nuclear fall out would be enough to decimate the majority of the world, especially if China joins in.

 

Perhaps India and Pakistan would also try to wipe each other out and maybe the Israeli's would toss a few of their missiles into Gaza.

[jvs]

3 hours ago, salavan said:

Supply arms to Ukraine  and prolong the war that would help keep oil prices high Good news for the oil companies 

What high oil prices?

Same price now as when the war broke out.

The Ukraine is doing the dirty work for Europe and the USA.

Keep supplying them with more and more weapons will drag Russia deeper into the mud for a very long time.

[jvs]

There are probably a few countries that are just waiting for

signs that russia is being defeated.

Chechnya is just one of them.

Maybe China wants a piece back that belonged to them long ago

and was lost in the century of embarrassment .

Putin is on very thin ice,he may just sink in the next few weeks.He needs success before the winter falls in.

Just getting rid of Putin will not change much,Russia has even worse

people waiting to have a go.

The Russian army is not going to win for sure if any one else decides

to attack them.

But, there is the threat of a nuclear war.How many of Putins nuclear

missiles are in working order?I hope we will never find out .

If he does decide to go nuclear he knows it will also be the end of him and his newborn daughter.

 

[bradiston]

I posted this over a month ago, July 21st. What's changed? Not a lot, except the destruction is grotesque. I don't think Ukraine can get Russia off its territory on its own. If Russia can march in, why can Europe not roll in, as "peace keepers"? You really think Putin would consider a nuclear option? Nah, no chance. It would be the end of everything. But, he has to be stopped.

 

A peace keeping force invited in by Zelensky. It's so late in the day. So much damage. And Russian advances. Europe has dragged its feet. Unprepared, and unwilling to fight. Now, it's getting late to do anything. Is there a plan?

 

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, bradiston said:

I posted this over a month ago, July 21st. What's changed? Not a lot, except the destruction is grotesque. I don't think Ukraine can get Russia off its territory on its own. If Russia can march in, why can Europe not roll in, as "peace keepers"? You really think Putin would consider a nuclear option? Nah, no chance. It would be the end of everything. But, he has to be stopped.

 

A peace keeping force invited in by Zelensky. It's so late in the day. So much damage. And Russian advances. Europe has dragged its feet. Unprepared, and unwilling to fight. Now, it's getting late to do anything. Is there a plan?

 

AFAIK the plan is to train the Ukrainians in hi-tech Western weapons. The Ukrainians claim they can mobilize a one million strong army. Unless Russia can interdict the flow of armaments from the West, the Ukrainians will get stronger every month.

 

Putin has just ordered the mobilization of 137,000 troops, presumably to bolster an army which has lost about 70,000 to 80,000 men in battle, including an extraordinary number of flag officers.

 

Russia is not advancing. It is stalled, and the Ukrainians are counter-attacking at Kherson and in the Crimea. Russian holiday-makers there are getting a dose of reality.

 

The other side of the coin is the sanctions. Russia is facing economic ruin. Their domestic aircraft fleet is more than three-quarters Boeing and Airbus. Already there are reports from within Russia aircraft are being cannibalized to keep some of the planes in the air, because Boeing and Airbus have shut down the normal flow of spare parts, software etc. every airline in the world needs to continue flying safely.

 

It's a battle of wills that will only end when the Russian people stop swallowing Putin's BS.

 

[salavan]

13 hours ago, jvs said:

What high oil prices?

Same price now as when the war broke out.

The Ukraine is doing the dirty work for Europe and the USA.

Keep supplying them with more and more weapons will drag Russia deeper into the mud for a very long time.

What high oil prices?

An excuse to up the price of petrol

[billd766]

14 hours ago, jvs said:

What high oil prices?

Same price now as when the war broke out.

The Ukraine is doing the dirty work for Europe and the USA.

Keep supplying them with more and more weapons will drag Russia deeper into the mud for a very long time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62677262

 

Russia's president has signed a decree which could see 137,000 service personnel added to the country's armed forces in the coming months.

Currently Russia has a limit of just over a million military personnel and almost 900,000 civilian staff.

Vladimir Putin's decree comes amid a recruitment drive around the country, with large cash incentives on offer.

Western officials say 70-80,000 troops have been killed or wounded since Russia invaded Ukraine six months ago.

There have been reports that recruiters have even been visiting prisons, promising inmates freedom and money.

 

 

 

But it said "very limited levels of popular enthusiasm for volunteering for combat in Ukraine" meant it would be difficult to find the required number of troops.

[jvs]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But it said "very limited levels of popular enthusiasm for volunteering for combat in Ukraine" meant it would be difficult to find the required number of troops.

Yes the word is getting around.People send there will have no

battle experience and will be just cannon futter.

Winter is coming ,not a good time to join the russian army.