OTHERED: How racism, xenophobia and religious discrimination were woven into the fabric of the UK

[kwilco]

Here's an article in the Times.

The fact is that the media is gradually coming round to the opinion that the underlying problem is Brexit....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-six-year-cult-has-the-tories-in-its-grip-only-defeat-can-free-them-0l58rqdwg

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This thread is focussed on how racism is woven into the fabric of the UK and many of the respondents are British or have experienced life in the UK.

 

Anyone who grew up in the UK in the period from the late forties through to the late 80s will have been introduced to racist views and thinking. Racism in the UK over that period was openly and often casually expressed.

 

Its a period during which overtly racist political organizations formed and were openly aligned with violent racist gangs.

 

Skinheads ‘bashing’ Pakistanis, racist violence at public events, racist chants at league football games, bananas thrown at Black sportsmen, Asian businesses targeted by racist gangs.

 

These are historical facts.

 

But there was also the less extreme but insidious casual racism, racist jokes told and laughed at, not just privately but in media too.

Racism was for decades an overt background in British society.

 

It is facile to deny this racism was real and that it has a lingering presence in the minds of people who grew up in the UK through those years.

 

So yes, everyone has some elements of racism in their thinking, some recognize this and deal with it, some deny it but it’s still there, and some nurture it, looking for any and every excuse to vent their hate on foreigners, migrants, refugees, asylum seekers .

 

Refer the pejorative views towards these groups by a small number of members in any and all threads that in anyway address these subjects. 
 

And if a thread isn’t about foreigners, migrants, refugees, asylum seekers, this same small numbers will frequently take the discussion off topic in an attempt to make it so.

 

Oh I see , we are talking about 40-50-60 years ago .

It was a different era back then and things were very different back then ,racist attitudes were the norm .

    Things have changed since back then and racism is no longer  thing in the U.K .

   Many of the under 50 year olds in the UK were bought up in a multi racial society .

   The terrible dark old days of the National Front and British Movement and Pakistani bashing are long gone and its new generation now 

[Mac Mickmanus]

27 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Here's an article in the Times.

The fact is that the media is gradually coming round to the opinion that the underlying problem is Brexit....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-six-year-cult-has-the-tories-in-its-grip-only-defeat-can-free-them-0l58rqdwg

You can still get a working visa if you want to come back to the U.K

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Oh I see , we are talking about 40-50-60 years ago .

It was a different era back then and things were very different back then ,racist attitudes were the norm .

    Things have changed since back then and racism is no longer  thing in the U.K .

   Many of the under 50 year olds in the UK were bought up in a multi racial society .

   The terrible dark old days of the National Front and British Movement and Pakistani bashing are long gone and its new generation now 

No. 
 

I’m talking about people who where born and grew up in the period after the late forties, through to the late 80s, as I clearly explained.

I’m pleased to see you accept racist attitudes were the norm back then.

 

Now all you have to do is grasp the idea that people who grew up at a time when racist attitudes where the norm in the society they were growing up with will have to some varying degree taken those racist attitudes on board.

 

We frequently see examples in n discussions in this forum.

“The terrible dark old days of the National Front and British Movement and Pakistani bashing are long gone and its new generation now ”

 

Yes I absolutely agree, terrible dark days but I do not agree ‘long gone’, they are in the living memory of members of this forum and we see far too many examples on this forum that those racist attitudes have left their mark.

 

Yes I agree, the younger generalizations were brought up in a multi cultural society and not exposed to the racism of the ‘recent past’.

 

Have you noticed, the people who often express racist views on this forum also frequently express derogatory views on the young.

 

There has been a generational change, but the older generation are still around, some still expressing racist views, a minority expressing vile racist views.

 

 

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You can still get a working visa if you want to come back to the U.K

Sorry, I don't understand. Who can? Do you mean a work permit? If so what sort are you referring to?

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Oh I see , we are talking about 40-50-60 years ago .

It was a different era back then

It's  a pity that people don't understand history and how it relates to today.

"No dogs no Iraish no coloureds" were legal until the 1960s as was discrimination re employment, but laws were brought in to prevent this. It means that most people didn't agree with these attitudes but it doesn't  mean they don't exist anymore. 

Nowadays racists try ti hide their racism....see the list I posted.

But institutional racism has been here for decades and still exists....if you understand a little of the history, you can see where it comes from and how it survives.

Complacency is racism best friend. People who sit back and do nothing in the face of evil are as bad as those who commit it.

[Mac Mickmanus]

53 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Sorry, I don't understand. Who can? Do you mean a work permit? If so what sort are you referring to?

You can apply for work in the UK and you can get work permits

[Mac Mickmanus]

52 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Nowadays racists try ti hide their racism....see the list I posted.

That list is nonsense and the person who wrote that list seems a bit of an idiot, because the list doesn't make any sense 

[Mac Mickmanus]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:14 AM, kwilco said:

11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed, colour

So,  saying Thailand is a "Land of Smiles" is actually a racist statement and anyone who makes the suggestion thatThailand is a land of smiles, is actually a racist ?

[Bluespunk]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

That list is nonsense and the person who wrote that list seems a bit of an idiot, because the list doesn't make any sense 

Made sense to me. 

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

That list is nonsense and the person who wrote that list seems a bit of an idiot, because the list doesn't make any sense 

OK let’s accept at face value your opinion is that particular list is nonsense.

 

Do you agree there are statements and ‘go to arguments’ that are characteristic of racists?

 

Or is it your contention that nobody can conclude another person is a racist on the basis of the statements and arguments they put forward?

 

 

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So,  saying Thailand is a "Land of Smiles" is actually a racist statement and anyone who makes the suggestion thatThailand is a land of smiles, is actually a racist ?

I think I've mentioned this to you before - that is a false syllogism - a logical fallacy

 

e.g.

Dogs have 4 legs

My cat has 4 legs

therefore my cat is a dog.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

"No dogs no Irish no coloureds"

Coincidentally enough and I swear its true , I rent a spare room out to a Black Irish student , from EIRE .

   She stays upstairs in the spare room and its really unnecessary to keep going on about  some landlords UK rental requirements from 60 years ago

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Coincidentally enough and I swear its true , I rent a spare room out to a Black Irish student , from EIRE .

   She stays upstairs in the spare room and its really unnecessary to keep going on about  some landlords UK rental requirements from 60 years ago

Good for you, but you have no logical argument to preclude the racism that existed during the lives of people engaged in this discussion.

 

It is a prime example of the background racism that influenced the minds of very many people living, and importantly voting, in the UK today.

 

Racist tropes have been used in UK political campaigns within the last decade, they played particularly well to the demographic that grew up with overt racism in British society, of the kind you feel it unnecessary to discus.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I think I've mentioned this to you before - that is a false syllogism

 

e.g.

All dogs have 4 legs

My cat has 4 legs

therefore my cat is a dog.

No, stop changing words around , were are not talking about cats and dogs 

You claimed that 

"11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed colour," is racist .

   Saying Thai people have smiles is doing just that , making a sweeping  generalisation about a Nationality .

   You cannot have it both ways , either making sweeping generalisations about a Nationality is either racist or it isn't 

 

  

[kwilco]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Coincidentally enough and I swear its true , I rent a spare room out to a Black Irish student , from EIRE .

   She stays upstairs in the spare room and its really unnecessary to keep going on about  some landlords UK rental requirements from 60 years ago

That comes under 16 -  “Some of my best friends are…..”

[kwilco]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, stop changing words around , were are not talking about cats and dogs 

You claimed that 

"11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed colour," is racist .

   Saying Thai people have smiles is doing just that , making a sweeping  generalisation about a Nationality .

   You cannot have it both ways , either making sweeping generalisations about a Nationality is either racist or it isn't 

 

  

sorry if that is too much for you let me elucidate

 

Racists make sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed, colour

 “Land of Smiles” is a sweeping Statement

Therefore “Land of smiles” is racist?

 

There is no logical connection between C the conclusion and the first 2 statements.

I'm guessing you won't understand that.

[kwilco]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, stop changing words around , were are not talking about cats and dogs 

You claimed that 

"11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed colour," is racist .

   Saying Thai people have smiles is doing just that , making a sweeping  generalisation about a Nationality .

   You cannot have it both ways , either making sweeping generalisations about a Nationality is either racist or it isn't 

Have to say, I've cut and pasted that answer  - "no stop changing words" - has got to be pure gold!

[kwilco]

Mick - what are you actually arguing? 

That you are NOT racist or that your are?  or something else?

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 minutes ago, kwilco said:

sorry if that is too much for you let me elucidate

 

Racists make sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed, colour

 “Land of Smiles” is a sweeping Statement

Therefore “Land of smiles” is racist?

 

There is no logical connection between C the conclusion and the first 2 statements.

I'm guessing you won't understand that.

You are correct , I have lost track of the logic and discussion and cannot understand , doesn't make sense to me 

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Mick - what are you actually arguing? 

That you are NOT racist or that your are?  or something else?

 

Going by your list , I am racist times 5 , as I tick five of your boxes .

Although I disagree with your list . 

So, you think that I am a racist, I think that I am not 

But, as I have just denied that I am a racist , that's further proof that I am 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

That comes under 16 -  “Some of my best friends are…..”

That shows that your list doesn't make any sense at all . 

100 people applied , I choose a Black Irish woman....................which puts me in the category of being a racist . 

   Shows how senseless your list is 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Have to say, I've cut and pasted that answer  - "no stop changing words" - has got to be pure gold!

No, you misunderstood , you aren't as clever as you think you are .

You bought cats and dogs into the equation and we aren't talking about cats and dogs , that is a false equivalence .

   Those were the changed words that I was referring to 

[jak2002003]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, stop changing words around , were are not talking about cats and dogs 

You claimed that 

"11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed colour," is racist .

   Saying Thai people have smiles is doing just that , making a sweeping  generalisation about a Nationality .

   You cannot have it both ways , either making sweeping generalisations about a Nationality is either racist or it isn't 

 

  

Oh yes. And the generalisation and sweeping statement that British white people are racist is also racist!  

[kwilco]

22 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Oh yes. And the generalisation and sweeping statement that British white people are racist is also racist!  

again a false syllogism - be interested to know where you get that idea from.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Going by your list , I am racist times 5 , as I tick five of your boxes .

Although I disagree with your list . 

So, you think that I am a racist, I think that I am not 

But, as I have just denied that I am a racist , that's further proof that I am 

As I said earlier - ".....doth protest to much, me thinks"

 

As I said earlier being a racist is similar to being an alcoholic - until you admit you are one there is nothing you can do about it.

[CG1 Blue]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:14 AM, kwilco said:

no you're not - you just don't understand logic. - I'm using a logic to approach the premise as you presented it... but you are trying to use a false syllogism.

 

here's a litmus test for you........

 

"Racism is, according to dictionary terms, a belief in the superiority of some races over others; prejudice against or hatred of other races.

 

Blatant racism is easy to identify — a shouted racial slur, a white supremacist rally, or the open discrimination, segregation and violence of the pre-civil rights era.

Microaggressions, emerge in the everyday exchanges among friends and strangers alike and can offend racial and ethnic minorities.

 

Tropes and clichés used by racists …..

1.     Saying someone’s playing "the race card"

2.     Dismissing an individual who brings up race / culture in a discussion

3.     Use of the concept of “other” (we/them syndrome)

4.     Stereotyping of an entire nationality.

5.     “I married one, so I can’t be racist, can I?”

6.     Logical Fallacies: e.g. false authority- the use of “expert” – i.e. concentration on the messenger rather than the message.

7.     No true Scotsman – Stating that the arguer is wrong because they don’t not represent the argument e.g. You don’t live there or in Thailand)

8.     Conviction that personally they have superior abilities to the people they are criticising

9.     Over-use of the 3rd person plural pronouns and adjectives, (e.g. - them, they, their)

10.  “They” come over here….

11.  Sweeping subjective generalisations about nationality, creed, colour

12.  It’s a religion, so that’s not racist, is it?

13.  Incorrect use of the word "culture" – “It’s in their “culture”

14.  Failure to distinguish between prejudice, assumption or opinion and "fact"

15.  Spend a lot of time arguing something is not racist.

16.  “Some of my best friends are…..”

17.  “I’ve got nothing against them, but……..”

18.  “They come over here…”

19.  “Did you hear the one about?…….”

20.  “coloureds”

21.  “racialist” (as opposed to “racist”)

22.  “It’s PC gone mad!”

23.  “(They’re a)Dysfunctional race”

24.  “Some of them are racist too!”

25.  Racism is “natural”

26.  "ALL lives matter"

27.  “They’re great (any hobby or activity). . But they can’t (any hobby or activity)….”

28.  “A lot of minorities are too sensitive,” 

29.  Microaggressions, in the everyday exchanges = “Everyone can succeed in this society, if they work hard enough.” Where are you from?”

30.  Ad hominem Clichés – “snowflake” “greenie” “woke” “leftie”  - e.g. Using “woke” as a derogatory term

 

If you can tick any one of these, you are probably racist.

This is purely opinion. To present it as fact would be arrogance, and I'm sure you're not arrogant. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 minutes ago, kwilco said:

As I said earlier - ".....doth protest to much, me thinks"

 

As I said earlier being a racist is similar to being an alcoholic - until you admit you are one there is nothing you can do about it.

You use racism to attack people . 

Accuse others of being racist and sit back watching them defend themselves .

   You are using racism to abuse and attack others by falsely accusing them 

[Bluespunk]

38 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Oh yes. And the generalisation and sweeping statement that British white people are racist is also racist!  

Who made that statement?

[Mac Mickmanus]

53 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

That shows that your list doesn't make any sense at all . 

100 people applied , I choose a Black Irish woman....................which puts me in the category of being a racist . 

   Shows how senseless your list is 

I cannot believe this myself . 

I also have a French woman staying with me , who works at Eurostar and she has just showed up with two dogs in tow and asked/told me that they will be staying the night !!!!!!!!