Netanyahu says don’t get ‘hung up’ on peace with Palestinians first

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, placnx said:

First of all, Crimea was part of Russia from 1783 until Khruschev incorporated it into Ukraine in 1954. The story is complicated.

 

Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire until the First World War. At that time the British promised the Sharif of Mecca that, in return for revolt against the Ottomans, the Arab lands would be independent, including geographical Palestine. There was some contradiction with the 1917 Balfour Declaration promising Lord Rothschild the creation of a Jewish homeland.

 

The reality for West Bank Palestinians is being harassed and killed by encroaching settlers. What would you do in their place? Israel's activity in the West Bank harks back to 19th Century colonialism with extraterritorial legal treatment for settlers.

Some contradiction indeed.

Yes the Arabs in the area have serious and legit grievances. Arab Israelis much less so. Nobody would doubt that.

But what is the realistic way forward from today?

Neither the Arab or Israeli leadership is up to actually solving this.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

As I've said the most logical eventual path forward is a binational state with the then minority Jews rights fully protected by its constitutional structure and perhaps UN or US security presence.  No two state solution. Thats over. No way for the Arabs to destroy the Jewish character including the right of return.  Details? I haven't a clue. Great leadership will be required on both sides. Nothing like that now. The carrots for the Arabs would be improved quality of life, prosperity, health care, education, LGBT rights, and peace dividends. Being partnered with Israel among the most advanced nations could be an incredible step forward for the Arabs in that region.

Yes, Israel needs a constitution that protects the rights of all. Such a constitution can nonetheless contain inalterable provisions for Jewish languages and cultures as primary, while preserving the status quo for the Temple Mount, and protecting individual rights from oppression by zealots of the Three Abrahamic Faiths.

 

I've asked several Jewish friends about the constitution question, and got no reply. After the present government, this may change. The "basic law" is becoming the "emperor's new clothes". In the end it will likely be pressure from the outside that will make the difference.

[Scott]

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[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

Yes, Israel needs a constitution that protects the rights of all. Such a constitution can nonetheless contain inalterable provisions for Jewish languages and cultures as primary, while preserving the status quo for the Temple Mount, and protecting individual rights from oppression by zealots of the Three Abrahamic Faiths.

 

I've asked several Jewish friends about the constitution question, and got no reply. After the present government, this may change. The "basic law" is becoming the "emperor's new clothes". In the end it will likely be pressure from the outside that will make the difference.

I'm not seeing much pressure.

 

I'll put this another way.

 

Israelis are for the most part OK with the status quo.

 

The Arab situation isn't even much of a campaign issue.

 

So in my view the ball is with the Arabs on this 

 

Rock throwing and shooting up synagogues isn't gonna to help.

 

How about elevating better leaders?

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Don't even bother trying to conflate those situations  That is disingenuous and perverted.

You and others claim no side 

Bull!.

Its the side of anti Zionism, Israel demonization, and no regard for the right of Israel to exist 

It is truly nauseating.

I don't think Israeli is doing much to win  hearts and minds anywhere in the world on this subject. I believe that Jews should have a homeland but that it should be commensurate with international law. Whatever that law is at any time.

Edited February 4, 2023 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

22 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I don't think Israeli is doing much to win  hearts and minds anywhere in the world on this subject. I believe that Jews should have a homeland but that it should be commensurate with international law. Whatever that law is at any time.

So if a Court ruling found the settlements to be legal, or  law was changed to legitimise the settlements, then you would end your grievance with Israel and find another campaign to support?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So if a Court ruling found the settlements to be legal, or  law was changed to legitimise the settlements, then you would end your grievance with Israel and find another campaign to support?

If it was an independent and international court then yes.

[Jingthing]

Good to hear that some Israelis are protesting but the far right wing is in power there so presumably they're going to do what they want regardless.

[Scott]

A post without a supporting link has been removed.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:34 AM, placnx said:

First of all, Crimea was part of Russia from 1783 until Khruschev incorporated it into Ukraine in 1954. The story is complicated.

 

Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire until the First World War. At that time the British promised the Sharif of Mecca that, in return for revolt against the Ottomans, the Arab lands would be independent, including geographical Palestine. There was some contradiction with the 1917 Balfour Declaration promising Lord Rothschild the creation of a Jewish homeland.

 

The reality for West Bank Palestinians is being harassed and killed by encroaching settlers. What would you do in their place? Israel's activity in the West Bank harks back to 19th Century colonialism with extraterritorial legal treatment for settlers.

Disregarding that IMO Britain lied to the Arabs in return to getting their assistance, by running away after a bit of Irgun terrorism the British abandoned the problem and opened the way for the new UN to take away the land from the occupants and give it to the Jews. I believe that Jerusalem was supposed to be separate.

 

Since then despite many UN resolutions against Israel the US always covers for them with the veto.

Get rid of veto power and IMO Israel will feel the brunt of international sanctions for what they are doing to the Palestinians.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:04 PM, placnx said:

Since you mention the Peel Commission, this Wikipedia entry shows that it was not accepted by all Jews, either, and Ben-Gurion and Weizmann saw it "as a stepping stone to some further expansion and the eventual takeover of the whole of Palestine."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission

Arab countries saw it as a betrayal of the promise of an independent Palestine.

 

Furthermore, what really happened in 1948 when 750,000 Palestinians fled from a newly created Israel, came to light in the 1980s through the efforts of Benny Morris: 

https://www.akevot.org.il/en/article/intelligence-brief-from-1948-hidden-for-decades-indicates-jewish-fighters-actions-were-the-major-cause-of-arab-displacement-not-calls-from-arab-leadership/?full 

I've seen a few documentaries about that on Al Jazeera, but of course those that support Israel right or wrong will ignore that.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:51 AM, Hanaguma said:

This is nonsense. If the Israelis didnt want the Palestinians to exist, they wouldn't. The West Bank and Gaza exist at the sufferage of Israel. 

Hmmm.  Exactly how would they stop the Palestinians existing? Methinks you exposed a bit more than you intended there!

 

Israel has no ( legal ) rights to the west bank or Gaza, other than by conquest and the US veto in the UN. Given the outcry against another country trying to seize land by conquest, IMO it's a bit hypocritical to be excusing a similar situation in Palestine.

 

IMO, one of these days the Israelis are going to go too far and even the US will not be able to cover for them.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:22 AM, GypsyT said:

I have solution;

 

Put Brits in charge again.

That works in British Columbia, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

When other countries are fighting and dying to be independent those countries are repeatedly voting to be "under British rule".

 

Errr, is that sarcasm?

Don't know about Canada or B C, though NZ and Australia have the British monarch as head of state, they are otherwise independent and make their own laws. Britain is not "in charge".

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:41 PM, Hanaguma said:

So then, what would be a "proportionate" way for Israel to defend itself against terrorists? Unguided rockets perhaps, or bombs attached to balloons, or sending in their brainwashed children....

Making peace usually works.

Israel would have to make concessions like leaving the occupied territories, but if they don't make peace their great great grandchildren will be living in fear of the Palestinians- is that what they want?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:02 PM, Hummin said:

The biggest mistakes post war was creating Israel and Pakistan in my opinion. 

 

 

IMO both situations created by Britain running away from it's obligations. They abandoned Palestinians to the fate the UN imposed on them and the partitioning of British India was handled in haste and very badly, IMO.

[Hanaguma]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Making peace usually works.

Israel would have to make concessions like leaving the occupied territories, but if they don't make peace their great great grandchildren will be living in fear of the Palestinians- is that what they want?

Israel left Gaza, how did that work out? 

[Hanaguma]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmm.  Exactly how would they stop the Palestinians existing? Methinks you exposed a bit more than you intended there!

 

Israel has no ( legal ) rights to the west bank or Gaza, other than by conquest and the US veto in the UN. Given the outcry against another country trying to seize land by conquest, IMO it's a bit hypocritical to be excusing a similar situation in Palestine.

 

IMO, one of these days the Israelis are going to go too far and even the US will not be able to cover for them.

Israel has the power to wipe out the Palestinians- but they don't.  If the Palestinians had the power to wipe out Israel, do you think they would hesitate for even one second?

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Israel left Gaza, how did that work out? 

Make people hate you and how will that work out?

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Israel has the power to wipe out the Palestinians- but they don't.  If the Palestinians had the power to wipe out Israel, do you think they would hesitate for even one second?

I don't get you at all. If they did "wipe them out" do you think the rest of the world would ignore that?

The Palestinians may wish to wipe out Israelis, but they don't have that capability, so not really an issue, is it?

[BritManToo]

23 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Israel has the power to wipe out the Palestinians- but they don't.  If the Palestinians had the power to wipe out Israel, do you think they would hesitate for even one second?

Went to Israel, wandered all over, the Israelis I encountered were generally unpleasant, the Palestinians I encountered were generally friendly and helpful.

Saw and was surprised by the Palestinian internment camps, looks like something I would expected to see in WW2 movies. 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Went to Israel, wandered all over, the Israelis I encountered were generally unpleasant, the Palestinians I encountered were generally friendly and helpful.

Saw and was surprised by the Palestinian internment camps, looks like something I would expected to see in WW2 movies. 

 

 

IMO the ordinary Israelis are as much victims of the situation as the Palestinians. The Palestinians suffer from oppression and the ordinary Israeli suffers from being forced by their government to be oppressors. Living a state of constant fear has very bad psychological effects on most people.

[placnx]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:26 PM, Jingthing said:

I'm not seeing much pressure.

 

I'll put this another way.

 

Israelis are for the most part OK with the status quo.

 

The Arab situation isn't even much of a campaign issue.

 

So in my view the ball is with the Arabs on this 

 

Rock throwing and shooting up synagogues isn't gonna to help.

 

How about elevating better leaders?

 

You are right that the Palestinan issue and the two-state solution were not a campaign issue.

 

The Israeli media tend to accept the police and army reports as true, i.e. that Palestinians killed were terrorists. After it came out that an old Palestinian lady hit by a bullet in her home was one of the body count, it would be "investigated". The example of how the high profile dealth of the journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was "investigated" by the army laid bare the quality of such investigations, as multiple independent international media exposed the truth

 

Unfortunately for Israel, their local TV coverage thus tends to amplify the threat posed by ordinary Palestinians. After decades of media coverage of the occupation, this has driven public opinion ever further to the right.

 

Outside Israel public consternation is slowly building against the occupation as settlements increase and the Israeli government passes increasingly oppressive laws violating international law. A proposed law would revoke Israeli citizenship of families of "terrorists". Current practice is to demolish their homes, a practice that amounts to collective punishment.

 

Meanwhile, settlers are a daily threat to Palestinians, not to mention the increasingly frequent army raids. When the army stands around while setllers commit terrorist acts, what are the Palestinnian victims to do?

 

There are significant protests in Israel these days about the Israeli government's plan to undermine the authority and independence of the Supreme court by giving the parliament, a/k/a Knesset the ability to override Supreme Court decisions by a simple majority vote. In addition, the appointment of jusdges would be made by the gevernment. The protestors are interested in how this would affect their rights, not how it could affect Palestinians who are really under threat by the proposed legislation mentioned above.

 

In the end it will be widespread international recognition that Israel has become an apartheid state that will force Israelis to confront the truth and make a choice, just as South Africa did. It will not be surprising that the US will continue in denial to the last, just as happened in the South African case.

 

The Arab states are mostly run by autocrats, some of whom live in fear of Iran, so they cooperate with Israel in this sphere. That does not extend to the dream of some people in Israel for a mass transfer of Palestinians to other Arab countries. The relationship advances of the Abraham Accords and previous non-public interactions could be set back if ultra Orthodox extremists commit especially serious crimes against the Islamic sites on the Temple Mount, for example. 

 

Maybe Israel needs better leaders, too.    

[placnx]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:20 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Disregarding that IMO Britain lied to the Arabs in return to getting their assistance, by running away after a bit of Irgun terrorism the British abandoned the problem and opened the way for the new UN to take away the land from the occupants and give it to the Jews. I believe that Jerusalem was supposed to be separate.

 

Since then despite many UN resolutions against Israel the US always covers for them with the veto.

Get rid of veto power and IMO Israel will feel the brunt of international sanctions for what they are doing to the Palestinians.

The veto power has been so abused that it has rendered the UN useless in major conflicts, now with Ukraine. That's why the US and other countries have to institute sanctions independent of the UN. This will probably be the case for Israel as well. 

[Jingthing]

Absolutely Israel needs better leaders too.

Hopefully the protests will make them cancel or at least soften the proposed extreme changes to the government structure.

 

[placnx]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:27 AM, Hanaguma said:

Israel left Gaza, how did that work out? 

With the help of Egypt, they turned Gaza into a prison.

[Jingthing]

53 minutes ago, placnx said:

The veto power has been so abused that it has rendered the UN useless in major conflicts, now with Ukraine. That's why the US and other countries have to institute sanctions independent of the UN. This will probably be the case for Israel as well. 

Not unless Israel occupies Jordan.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Not unless Israel occupies Jordan.

That's the most extreme version of Greater Israel.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, placnx said:

That's the most extreme version of Greater Israel.

But it isn't.

Israel demonizers BDS pipedreams are just that.

Israel isn't apartheid South Africa. 

Israel isn't Putin's Russia. 

Israel is Israel.

[placnx]

21 hours ago, Jingthing said:

But it isn't.

Israel demonizers BDS pipedreams are just that.

Israel isn't apartheid South Africa. 

Israel isn't Putin's Russia. 

Israel is Israel.

When talking about Greater Israel, have a look at the map in this Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

If the West Bank and Golan is gobbled up, where will it end?

 

Maybe someone else equated Israel with Putin's Russia, but I did not. However, due to the US Jackson-Vanik Amendment, a million Russian Jews emigrated to Israel. That's definitely changed Israel, maybe not for the good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson–Vanik_amendment (see Effects - Soviet Union)

 

People outside Israel may be oblivious of the unequal treatment afforded Arab citizens of Israel. It's very difficult for them to get building permits even to enlarge homes for a growing family. The reason is that permits are not managed by their community, but by regional authorities.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

Other discrimination keeps them from living in smaller Jewish towns.

A progressive response:

https://www.nif.org/stories/social-and-economic-justice/breakthrough-for-housing-rights-in-israeli-arab-towns/

As Palestinian Arabs (not including Druze) cannot serve in the army, they miss a lot of perks in education, etc, where service in the army is a prerequisite. Maybe this also applies to ultra Orthodox who choose not to serve in the army??

 

Israel's apartheid has its unique characteristics that distinguish it from the South African case, but how can Israel claim to be a democracy if the benefits are just for Jews?

 

As for the BDS movement (boycott, divestment, sanctions) in the US, it and student organizations sympathethic to Palestinians are under attack by what is called lawfare. One pretext for forcing university administrations to ban activity on campuses is that Jewish students feel uncomfortable or threatened. As time goes on, this attempt to suppress political speech may be consistently rejected in the courts, as the premise of BDS gains currency and legitimacy in public discourse.

[Jingthing]

37 minutes ago, placnx said:

When talking about Greater Israel, have a look at the map in this Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

If the West Bank and Golan is gobbled up, where will it end?

 

Maybe someone else equated Israel with Putin's Russia, but I did not. However, due to the US Jackson-Vanik Amendment, a million Russian Jews emigrated to Israel. That's definitely changed Israel, maybe not for the good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson–Vanik_amendment (see Effects - Soviet Union)

 

People outside Israel may be oblivious of the unequal treatment afforded Arab citizens of Israel. It's very difficult for them to get building permits even to enlarge homes for a growing family. The reason is that permits are not managed by their community, but by regional authorities.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

Other discrimination keeps them from living in smaller Jewish towns.

A progressive response:

https://www.nif.org/stories/social-and-economic-justice/breakthrough-for-housing-rights-in-israeli-arab-towns/

As Palestinian Arabs (not including Druze) cannot serve in the army, they miss a lot of perks in education, etc, where service in the army is a prerequisite. Maybe this also applies to ultra Orthodox who choose not to serve in the army??

 

Israel's apartheid has its unique characteristics that distinguish it from the South African case, but how can Israel claim to be a democracy if the benefits are just for Jews?

 

As for the BDS movement (boycott, divestment, sanctions) in the US, it and student organizations sympathethic to Palestinians are under attack by what is called lawfare. One pretext for forcing university administrations to ban activity on campuses is that Jewish students feel uncomfortable or threatened. As time goes on, this attempt to suppress political speech may be consistently rejected in the courts, as the premise of BDS gains currency and legitimacy in public discourse.

Pablum.

 

Progressive Jewish students in the US are subject to explicit antisemitism and exclusion just for being in favor of Israel's right to exist.

 

The word apartheid while technically a useful word is almost always associated with South Africa.

 

White South Africans weren't indigenous there. Jews are indigenous to Israel. It's their ancient homeland. Israel demonizers know what they're doing. They use that loaded word intentionally to inflame and persuade people that Israel is evil and illegitimate.

 

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/bellerose-aboriginal-people

 

 

 ___

Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Yes.

___

 

There is no perfect and pure democracy. Duh.

 

Do you think Arab Israelis really want to be in the IDF?

 

 

It will end at Golan.

 

.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Jingthing