Wifey's UK widows pension when i ''Pop me clogs''- Anyone have any knowledge/experiences ?

[Chomper Higgot]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:24 PM, Hugh Jarse said:

While you are alive.suggest you put this pension in a QROP. That way it’s outside of uk jurisdiction so no tax liability and the pot will remain intact. Many safe companies out there. I did this 15 years ago and no regrets, yet!

Arguably the worst piece of advice I’ e read in a long time.

 

The OP’s pension provides valuable benefits for him and his wife, and a guaranteed pension for their lives.

 

It’s also securely regulated under UK law.

 

OP, don’t go near QROPS.

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Arguably the worst piece of advice I’ e read in a long time.

 

The OP’s pension provides valuable benefits for him and his wife, and a guaranteed pension for their lives.

 

It’s also securely regulated under UK law.

 

OP, don’t go near QROPS.

 

 

Are there any advantages of moving a pension to QROPS?  

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Are there any advantages of moving a pension to QROPS?  

The only advantage I can see is for people with substantial non pension  investments that wish to move completely out of UK tax jurisdiction to avoid capital gains tax on their investments.

 

But their capital gains tax exposure would have to be significantly higher than their pension fund value.

The OP has a good sized pension with very valuable benefits attached, in particular inflation protections and a full pension for his wife if she survives him.

 

There would have to be some very compelling financial arguments to move that into QROPS.

 

[OJAS]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:43 PM, Ginkas said:

Unfortunately, for the "Inland Revenue" side of HMRC there appears to be no email address.

There are plenty for various aspects of Customs and Excise taxes and other matters, but none for basic tax.

I searched long and hard but could not find one, I think it is deliberate.

 

However, if anybody has found an email address for this side of HMRC both billd766 and I would be grateful.

Someone who is paying too much tax on his lowly State Pension. 

The Government Gateway did at one time include a useful secure messaging facility - but, unfortunately, HMRC in their infinite wisdom subsequently saw fit to withdraw it without providing any advance warning or explanation.

 

So we are left with the options of having to deal with HMRC on issues of concern to us by making lengthy phone calls or sending letters by snail mail to them. Yep, HMRC really are pioneers at the cutting edge and forefront of advanced technologies in our ability to communicate with them, aren't they?????

 

That said, there is still one way in which you can communicate with them online if you have a Government Gateway account, and that is through submitting a complaint:

 

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-hmrc

 

If you don't have a Goverment Gateway account you might wish to consider setting one up for the purposes of making a fact-finding "complaint" to HMRC regarding your State Pension issues. To go about doing this, click on "Create sign in details" under the "New users of Government Gateway" heading in the following link:

 

https://www.access.service.gov.uk/login/signin/creds

 

Good luck!

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

The Government Gateway did at one time include a useful secure messaging facility - but, unfortunately, HMRC in their infinite wisdom subsequently saw fit to withdraw it without providing any advance warning or explanation.

 

So we are left with the options of having to deal with HMRC on issues of concern to us by making lengthy phone calls or sending letters by snail mail to them. Yep, HMRC really are pioneers at the cutting edge and forefront of advanced technologies in our ability to communicate with them, aren't they?????

 

That said, there is still one way in which you can communicate with them online if you have a Government Gateway account, and that is through submitting a complaint:

 

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-hmrc

 

If you don't have a Goverment Gateway account you might wish to consider setting one up for the purposes of making a fact-finding "complaint" to HMRC regarding your State Pension issues. To go about doing this, click on "Create sign in details" under the "New users of Government Gateway" heading in the following link:

 

https://www.access.service.gov.uk/login/signin/creds

 

Good luck!

 

Thank you.

 

I used to have a Gateway account years ago when I did my own tax claims but I fear that that is long lost in the dark bowels of an old dead pc.

[OJAS]

On 5/13/2023 at 2:22 PM, cleopatra2 said:

In addition from the HMRC Thailand is on the following list 

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm10340

Many thanks for this link - which has spared me a long and agonising phone call to HMRC to clarify my Thai wife's entitlement to the UK personal allowance, such as @billd766 has recently experienced!

 

On 5/12/2023 at 12:23 PM, prakhonchai nick said:

Invariably help will be required as most wives/widows are unable to communicate sufficiently in English, especially in writing.

Agree 100%. If we have close family members back in the UK who by the normal run of things are expected to outlive us, it might IMHO be best to get them involved in wrapping up our UK affairs generally in due course, particularly where these affect our Thai spouses. To this end I have provided my sister with a note outlining what needs to be done at the UK end after I pop my clogs (including relevant contact details), which I strive to keep up to date.

 

[MartinL]

On 5/13/2023 at 2:22 PM, cleopatra2 said:

Here is the relevant paragraph

 

"(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected."

 

If a Thai national subject to UK tax did not receive the personal allowance that nationals of the UK are entitled. The Thai national UK tax would be more burdensome.

 

In addition from the HMRC Thailand is on the following list 

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm10340

That link is very interesting. Not in the immediate sense as it relates to wives we might leave behind but from our own perspectives as UK citizens living abroad.

 

I've read some rumblings that the UK government is considering, among other things, restricting the access of expats to the UK tax-free allowance. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance#impact-of-a-change

 

As I understand these things, the DTA (which seems to guarantee(?) the tax allowance for our widows in Thailand) isn't an easy thing to change whereas the restriction of tax allowance to expats is almost at the whim of government.

 

If that's true, I wonder whether there's even a remote possibility of us, as living and breathing expat UK citizens, losing the tax allowance but Thai widows retaining it. Yet more discrimination by UK government? Perish the thought!

 

Maybe I'm thinking too much (or not enough?).

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, MartinL said:

That link is very interesting. Not in the immediate sense as it relates to wives we might leave behind but from our own perspectives as UK citizens living abroad.

 

I've read some rumblings that the UK government is considering, among other things, restricting the access of expats to the UK tax-free allowance. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance#impact-of-a-change

 

As I understand these things, the DTA (which seems to guarantee(?) the tax allowance for our widows in Thailand) isn't an easy thing to change whereas the restriction of tax allowance to expats is almost at the whim of government.

 

If that's true, I wonder whether there's even a remote possibility of us, as living and breathing expat UK citizens, losing the tax allowance but Thai widows retaining it. Yet more discrimination by UK government? Perish the thought!

 

Maybe I'm thinking too much (or not enough?).

If the UK changed the situation where British expats no longer entitled to the personal tax allowance. This would have the effect of removing entitlement of Thai wives or spouse to the tax allowance.

[Pumpuynarak]

Update guys........

I called HMRC yesterday and eventually after 40 mins got put through to a ''specialist'' and i posed the following questions to him -

* As my wife is a Thailand national residing in Thailand will she be liable to income tax on her private widows pension ?

Reply - Yes

* Will she receive the personal allowance before taxation ?

Reply - Yes

Now i then should have asked him if they automatically give her the personal allowance or does she have to claim it but i forgot ???? so i'll be calling them again next week lol

From what the guy told me to justify his replies was that under the dual taxation arrangement between Thailand and the UK that would be the case. 

[billd766]

20 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Update guys........

I called HMRC yesterday and eventually after 40 mins got put through to a ''specialist'' and i posed the following questions to him -

* As my wife is a Thailand national residing in Thailand will she be liable to income tax on her private widows pension ?

Reply - Yes

* Will she receive the personal allowance before taxation ?

Reply - Yes

Now i then should have asked him if they automatically give her the personal allowance or does she have to claim it but i forgot ???? so i'll be calling them again next week lol

From what the guy told me to justify his replies was that under the dual taxation arrangement between Thailand and the UK that would be the case. 

I called the HMRC in May and was on line for 1 hour and 8 minutes using the AIS 003 prefix. The total cast was 485.1 baht.

[Pumpuynarak]

34 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I called the HMRC in May and was on line for 1 hour and 8 minutes using the AIS 003 prefix. The total cast was 485.1 baht.

OMG, i use www.mytello.com, it costs 0.4baht per min to a UK landline and 1.6baht per min to a mobile. Have a lookie, using Mytello is a no brainer imo

Is there any cost to my own landline or mobile provider?

Depending on your contract with your mobile or landline provider, dial-in charges to the local numbers may occur. If you have included minutes or a flat rate to local landlines, then there are no additional charges.

[billd766]

55 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

OMG, i use www.mytello.com, it costs 0.4baht per min to a UK landline and 1.6baht per min to a mobile. Have a lookie, using Mytello is a no brainer imo

Is there any cost to my own landline or mobile provider?

Depending on your contract with your mobile or landline provider, dial-in charges to the local numbers may occur. If you have included minutes or a flat rate to local landlines, then there are no additional charges.

Thank you for that information.

[Pumpuynarak]

Update guys.....

 

I called HMRC again yesterday and got put through to a specialist who confirmed wifey will need to claim the personal allowance EACH YEAR using form R43, not an easy task for a Thai national but my mate will help her. 

 

Wifey will need to complete Form R43 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1143859/R43_Manual__2023.pdf

[lungbing]

Will the Thai wife need to claim the allowance for the coming tax year, or claim it back in arrears after April each year?

[Mutt Daeng]

22 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Update guys.....

 

I called HMRC again yesterday and got put through to a specialist who confirmed wifey will need to claim the personal allowance EACH YEAR using form R43, not an easy task for a Thai national but my mate will help her. 

 

Wifey will need to complete Form R43 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1143859/R43_Manual__2023.pdf

Just clicked on your link and get

 

 

This link works for me

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1159391/R43_Manual__2023.pdf

[Pumpuynarak]

9 hours ago, lungbing said:

Will the Thai wife need to claim the allowance for the coming tax year, or claim it back in arrears after April each year?

Good question, looking at the form R43 it does indicate at question C5.1 ''Amount before tax'' and at C5.2 ''Tax taken off''

Now that would indicate wifey would be claiming back tax paid. 

[Pumpuynarak]

2 minutes ago, Mutt Daeng said:

Just clicked on your link and get

 

Hmmmmmm, don't know what happened there, i get virtually the same. I'll have a lookie and report back. 

[Mutt Daeng]

Check the link in my edited post above.

[Pumpuynarak]

12 minutes ago, Mutt Daeng said:

Just clicked on your link and get

 

 

This link works for me

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1159391/R43_Manual__2023.pdf

 

7 minutes ago, Mutt Daeng said:

Check the link in my edited post above.

Thanks

[MartinL]

On 6/29/2023 at 7:26 AM, Pumpuynarak said:

Update guys.....

 

I called HMRC again yesterday and got put through to a specialist who confirmed wifey will need to claim the personal allowance EACH YEAR using form R43, not an easy task for a Thai national but my mate will help her. 

 

Wifey will need to complete Form R43 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1143859/R43_Manual__2023.pdf

 

Moderator - if you feel this would be better as a new thread, please do so. "UK Tax Allowance for Thai Widows"?

 

I thought it better to resurrect this thread rather than start a new one. 

 

I sent 2 letters and an e-mail to HMRC on this subject in 2024. In the last couple of weeks, I had an e-mail reply - only about 9 months after the original letter! Despite the delay, their reply was a useful one. 

 

The e-mail is attached below.

 

Pumpuynarak was told that the Personal Allowance had to be applied for each year. This seems not to be true where Thailand is concerned, because of the UK/Thai Tax Agreement.

 

Using Form DT-Individual, NOT R43, this is a one-off process that, once approved, lasts until circumstances change - death of the Thai widow in receipt of the Tax Allowance being the most relevant for us or failure to return a Life Certificate (?). The form also allows for reclaim of taxes paid in error.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

Unfortunately, this application can only be made after a pension starts - after our death - so we can't be there to help our widow but maybe the bulk of the form can be completed while we're still here.

 

I'll be making an application on behalf of my mate's widow soon.

 

 

 

 

[Pumpuynarak]

1 hour ago, MartinL said:

 

Moderator - if you feel this would be better as a new thread, please do so. "UK Tax Allowance for Thai Widows"?

 

I thought it better to resurrect this thread rather than start a new one. 

 

I sent 2 letters and an e-mail to HMRC on this subject in 2024. In the last couple of weeks, I had an e-mail reply - only about 9 months after the original letter! Despite the delay, their reply was a useful one. 

 

The e-mail is attached below.

 

Pumpuynarak was told that the Personal Allowance had to be applied for each year. This seems not to be true where Thailand is concerned, because of the UK/Thai Tax Agreement.

 

Using Form DT-Individual, NOT R43, this is a one-off process that, once approved, lasts until circumstances change - death of the Thai widow in receipt of the Tax Allowance being the most relevant for us or failure to return a Life Certificate (?). The form also allows for reclaim of taxes paid in error.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

Unfortunately, this application can only be made after a pension starts - after our death - so we can't be there to help our widow but maybe the bulk of the form can be completed while we're still here.

 

I'll be making an application on behalf of my mate's widow soon.

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting, thanks for your post. So confusion reigns, i think we need someone who has experience of actually claiming the widows pension on behalf of a friends widow.

 

Is there anyone out there who can help ? i'll make a few enquiries with friends i have here in Korat and report back.

[Pumpuynarak]

5 hours ago, MartinL said:

I'll be making an application on behalf of my mate's widow soon.

 

Sorry i missed this part of your post, could you update once you have made the application, TIA

[MartinL]

3 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

 

Sorry i missed this part of your post, could you update once you have made the application, TIA

Of course I will. I'm not optimistic that it'll be a quick process, given the long wait for a reply to my letters, but HMRC might spring a surprise!

[prakhonchai nick]

I have assisted several Thai widows of British expats. They all receive the Personal Tax Allowance (currently £12,570), and this is sorted  by the former employer of husband when paying the widow's pension. No need ever to deal direct with HMRC re the allowance

 

However, depending on the date of death of the husband, a tax refund can be claimed (sometimes automatic after a year or so has elapsed)

 

Note that the UK state pension ceases upon death. There are no longer any benefits for widows or children, nor the one off lump sum payment (was £2,000).................unless husband and family happened to be in the UK at time of death

[OJAS]

9 hours ago, MartinL said:

I sent 2 letters and an e-mail to HMRC on this subject in 2024.

 

I'm sure that quite a few of us would be most interested to hear of the address you used for emailing HMRC!

 

On 5/31/2023 at 7:23 AM, MartinL said:

I've read some rumblings that the UK government is considering, among other things, restricting the access of expats to the UK tax-free allowance. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance#impact-of-a-change

 

 

Reverting to this 2023 comment, the link you quoted related to a consultation exercise launched by the Coalition Government in 2014, which, in the event, was subsequently booted into the long grass, thankfully. However, I must admit that I was, more recently, worried by the possibility of Rachel Reeves reviving this proposal as a means of offsetting the £22bn black hole she allegedly inherited from her Tory predecessors, but thankfully the 30 October Budget came and went with no specific announcement on this point as far as I can tell. That's not to say, of course, that she or her successors would not seek to revive it at some point in the future, despite the fact that we are, in practice, probably talking about a drop in the ocean when compared to the overall finances of UK plc.