Elite visa or a similar visa question

[sometimewoodworker]

9 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

I do know that one needs a work permit to work in Thailand. Quite easy to comprehend.

Good we at least agree on one point.

 

However you are still desperately trying to claim that working while you are in Thailand is not work!!! So it does not need a work permit 

 

I do know that one needs a work permit to work in Thailand

 

It makes no difference if your work doesn’t involve the Thai labour market it is working in Thailand q.e.d. it is against Thai law that you claim to understand.

 

As I have stated, repeatedly, I know that the authorities in charge of policing, at the moment, are not enforcing the law, this can change at any time but until someone high enough up decides to change the law it is clearly illegal 

5 hours ago, BritTim said:

if he is doing only 100% remote work for a foreign employer, there is no problem in practice. The Thai authorities at the highest levels have decided to tolerate this.

That is what I have been saying all the time. I have taken the liberty of highlighting the point made. Tolerance of a breach of the law doesn’t make it legal, it just means that you are unlikely to have problems. 

If you want to find out if there will be problems just start a very widely advertised  recruitment agency stating that you are going to employ people to work from Thailand stating that working without a work permit is legal because the work doesn’t involve Thailand so tourists are welcome. Make sure that you advertise often and very visibly in the Thai press.

Make enough noise and one of two things will happen (I can have a good chance of knowing which one) scenario 1; you will be welcomed by the authorities and the law will have an exception for your idea, scenario 2; after sufficient time has passed you will be shut down hard and everyone else working illegally will have to watch their backs .

 

 

[problemfarang]

7 hours ago, BritTim said:

It is vital to clarify exactly what he is doing in Thailand.

 

If he is doing any work that involves a Thai company or Thai customers, he needs a work permit. If the authorities become aware of what he is doing, they will take action.

 

On the other hand, if he is doing only 100% remote work for a foreign employer, there is no problem in practice. The Thai authorities at the highest levels have decided to tolerate this. He can use any visa he can get without any worries. He may, though, discover that his company's legal department want something better than "what he is doing is fully tolerated" as security that the company would never be held liable for illegal working.

Thank you for the info

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

If you want to find out if there will be problems just start a very widely advertised  recruitment agency stating that you are going to employ people to work from Thailand stating that working without a work permit is legal because the work doesn’t involve Thailand so tourists are welcome. Make sure that you advertise often and very visibly in the Thai press.

Make enough noise and one of two things will happen (I can have a good chance of knowing which one) scenario 1; you will be welcomed by the authorities and the law will have an exception for your idea, scenario 2; after sufficient time has passed you will be shut down hard and everyone else working illegally will have to watch their backs .

I would agree that acting as a Thai employer is not going to be tolerated by the Thai authorities. On the other hand, advertising in other countries that you have work that can be carried out from the location of the employee's choice will not get either you or the employee into trouble based on the standard practice of the Thai authorities for the last 15+ years.

[Yellowtail]

Do you guys think that all the salespeople that come to meet with customers or attend trade shows have to have work permits? 

[Mavideol]

20 hours ago, problemfarang said:

he is not working. its like he comes and do some work for his company based in his own country and go back to his country. to be honest i dont know what he is doing.

smells fishy... we actually never ask questions for ourselves, it's always for our "friends"  555

[BritTim]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you guys think that all the salespeople that come to meet with customers or attend trade shows have to have work permits? 

The authorities have specifically clarified that attending trade shows, and making purchases while there can be done without needing a work permit. Actually meeting customers and selling to them is different, and I do not think that is legal without a work permit.

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, BritTim said:

The authorities have specifically clarified that attending trade shows, and making purchases while there can be done without needing a work permit. Actually meeting customers and selling to them is different, and I do not think that is legal without a work permit.

So you think salesmen get work permits? 

[Misty]

7 hours ago, BritTim said:

The authorities have specifically clarified that attending trade shows, and making purchases while there can be done without needing a work permit. Actually meeting customers and selling to them is different, and I do not think that is legal without a work permit.

Yes, also have to take care not to give hotel seminars  ????

 

https://www.newsweek.com/sex-training-course-coaches-arrested-thailand-lacking-work-permit-821876

 

[problemfarang]

14 hours ago, BritTim said:

The authorities have specifically clarified that attending trade shows, and making purchases while there can be done without needing a work permit. Actually meeting customers and selling to them is different, and I do not think that is legal without a work permit.

i do believe it is. think like going to a business dinner. some people come here for attend some business meeting plus the sea and the nature. its all about what you are selling.. or talking in the meeting. its not like..

but i agree with you

[problemfarang]

15 hours ago, Mavideol said:

smells fishy... we actually never ask questions for ourselves, it's always for our "friends"  555

with all respect to you and your comment.. i was wondering if you would help differently if its me or my friend? 

i just cannot understand why people keep doing this.. its a friend or not. the question is there... does it matter?!

Edited May 21, 2023 by problemfarang

[Yellowtail]

I came to Thailand about every other month for a couple years (working) before coming here for work full-time. 

 

During that time, I met with our sales rep, looked at factories, met with customers, suppliers, contractors and lawyers. I finally leased an office and hired a driver and an office manager and started interviewing staff, all without a work permit. Every time I was asked by anyone why I was entering Thailand, or what I was doing in Thailand I answered truthfully, and I never had any problem. 

 

During the over twenty years I worked here, I had countless foreign nationals visit the factory for any number of reasons, all working, generally for a week, but sometimes for several months at a time, none of them with work permits, always answering honestly, and no one ever having any issue. 

 

For visitors, I think the no work permit issue is greatly exaggerated. 

[h90]

What is actually the right Visa if we say have a problem on our CNC, the German guy comes, does a 3 hour repair work and flies back?

no one would get a work permit for that?

 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, h90 said:

What is actually the right Visa if we say have a problem on our CNC, the German guy comes, does a 3 hour repair work and flies back?

Assuming the German guy is coming from Germany he is visa exempt. 

 

1 minute ago, h90 said:

no one would get a work permit for that?

No one would get a work permit for that. Or to have a guy come to do a two-week training, or a two-month product start-up, or any number of other things. 

 

 

[h90]

27 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Assuming the German guy is coming from Germany he is visa exempt. 

 

No one would get a work permit for that. Or to have a guy come to do a two-week training, or a two-month product start-up, or any number of other things. 

 

 

yes, but say someone would want to make everything 100% correct. What would be the correct way that noone really does?

[BritTim]

58 minutes ago, h90 said:

What is actually the right Visa if we say have a problem on our CNC, the German guy comes, does a 3 hour repair work and flies back?

no one would get a work permit for that?

Technically, you are supposed to get a UWP (Urgent Work Permit) for this, though people often do not.

 

Here is an excellent summary of (i) situations where the Labour Department clarified about 10 years ago that a work permit is not needed; and (ii) the UWP (Urgent Work Permit):

https://www.dejudomlaw.com/urgent-work-permit-thailand/

[h90]

59 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Technically, you are supposed to get a UWP (Urgent Work Permit) for this, though people often do not.

 

Here is an excellent summary of (i) situations where the Labour Department clarified about 10 years ago that a work permit is not needed; and (ii) the UWP (Urgent Work Permit):

https://www.dejudomlaw.com/urgent-work-permit-thailand/

thank you

[problemfarang]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I came to Thailand about every other month for a couple years (working) before coming here for work full-time. 

 

During that time, I met with our sales rep, looked at factories, met with customers, suppliers, contractors and lawyers. I finally leased an office and hired a driver and an office manager and started interviewing staff, all without a work permit. Every time I was asked by anyone why I was entering Thailand, or what I was doing in Thailand I answered truthfully, and I never had any problem. 

 

During the over twenty years I worked here, I had countless foreign nationals visit the factory for any number of reasons, all working, generally for a week, but sometimes for several months at a time, none of them with work permits, always answering honestly, and no one ever having any issue. 

 

For visitors, I think the no work permit issue is greatly exaggerated. 

Thanks

[Sigma6]

On 5/20/2023 at 4:06 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

It's his frequent visits on TVs that are the issue, not how to hide his work.

Right.

 

 I'm trying to ascertain his work intentions whilst in Thailand; whether or not he will fly under the radar, before I'd suggest that the Elite visa is suitable.
 

[Yellowtail]

10 hours ago, h90 said:

yes, but say someone would want to make everything 100% correct. What would be the correct way that noone really does?

I managed a BOI registered facility for a Fortune 200 company. If it was not legal, we would not do it. 

[xconnort]

I’ve read the conversations and I believe there is a misconception here.  I’ve owned 2 copies in Thailand legally since 1992 and always had an immigration lawyer.  I never had or needed a work permit simply because unless you are being paid a salary in Thailand you do not need a work permit.  My salary was only paid by the US company and zero payment by the Thai Companies.  If you earn a salary and you are going to be paid in Thailand by a Thai company you must have a work permit however being paid by a foreign company for what you do in Thailand does not.

[simon43]

7 minutes ago, xconnort said:

I’ve read the conversations and I believe there is a misconception here.  I’ve owned 2 copies in Thailand legally since 1992 and always had an immigration lawyer.  I never had or needed a work permit simply because unless you are being paid a salary in Thailand you do not need a work permit.  My salary was only paid by the US company and zero payment by the Thai Companies.  If you earn a salary and you are going to be paid in Thailand by a Thai company you must have a work permit however being paid by a foreign company for what you do in Thailand does not.

Well, that doesn't sound correct.  Why do volunteer workers in Thailand who receive no salary still need to have a work permit?

[Misty]

16 minutes ago, xconnort said:

I’ve read the conversations and I believe there is a misconception here.  I’ve owned 2 copies in Thailand legally since 1992 and always had an immigration lawyer.  I never had or needed a work permit simply because unless you are being paid a salary in Thailand you do not need a work permit.  My salary was only paid by the US company and zero payment by the Thai Companies.  If you earn a salary and you are going to be paid in Thailand by a Thai company you must have a work permit however being paid by a foreign company for what you do in Thailand does not.

According to our lawyers  if someone is physically present in Thailand doing work, a work permit is needed. It doesn't matter where the employer is located, nor where the salary is paid.  Also needed: a visa that permits working, examples:  NonB, NonO marriage, LTR, PR.  Visas that don't permit working:  retirement, tourist, visa exempt, Thai elite.

 

Yes, it's true that people do work without work permits and correct visas.  And many do so for long periods without having problems. But that doesn't make it legal.  If you do so, you're rolling dice and taking your chances.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Misty said:

According to our lawyers  if someone is physically present in Thailand doing work, a work permit is needed. It doesn't matter where the employer is located, nor where the salary is paid.  Also needed: a visa that permits working, examples:  NonB, NonO marriage, LTR, PR.  Visas that don't permit working:  retirement, tourist, visa exempt, Thai elite.

 

Yes, it's true that people do work without work permits and correct visas.  And many do so for long periods without having problems. But that doesn't make it legal.  If you do so, you're rolling dice and taking your chances.

Thats still the same ‘Black & White’ view point that sometimewoodworker carries...  & in some circumstances, particularly for the person who is here temporarily the view point is inaccurate from a legal perspective. 

 

 

Its not illegal for an overseas worker to come to Thailand and carry out some work while holidaying here. 

That overseas worker can have physical meetings, sign contracts, make arrangements etc as long as his stay here is temporary.

Equally, so its not illegal for an overseas worker to come to Thailand and carryout some online work, finishing of necessary documentation, billing, responding to work related e-mails etc. 

 

There are some folk on this forum who are stating that it is legally wrong to reply to a ‘work e-mail’ as that is considered ‘work’ in the eyes of Thailand’s labor department - The people who are suggesting such things are, quite simply, wrong !.... 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

Well, that doesn't sound correct.  Why do volunteer workers in Thailand who receive no salary still need to have a work permit?

You're oversimplifying it...  

Payment isn’t the single facet denoting whether someone is considered working in Thailand. 

Duration of stay, origin and destination of payment, type of work carried out, location of company etc...

 

Someone holidaying it up for a month and also replying to e-mails is not considered work. 

Someone who is here all year round and responding to company queries by e-mail is considered work. 

 

Someone who is working overseas and comes here for regular breaks and finishes off a little work online while he’s here is not considered work (from the department of labor point of view). 

If that person is here and is working all day every day working online (or all weekdays) then that could be considered work... but an hour here or there is certainly not.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Misty said:

According to our lawyers

Your lawyers are wrong and gave a lazy answer to an over simplified question. 

[Misty]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thats still the same ‘Black & White’ view point that sometimewoodworker carries...  & in some circumstances, particularly for the person who is here temporarily the view point is inaccurate from a legal perspective. 

 

 

Its not illegal for an overseas worker to come to Thailand and carry out some work while holidaying here. 

That overseas worker can have physical meetings, sign contracts, make arrangements etc as long as his stay here is temporary.

Equally, so its not illegal for an overseas worker to come to Thailand and carryout some online work, finishing of necessary documentation, billing, responding to work related e-mails etc. 

 

There are some folk on this forum who are stating that it is legally wrong to reply to a ‘work e-mail’ as that is considered ‘work’ in the eyes of Thailand’s labor department - The people who are suggesting such things are, quite simply, wrong !.... 

 

 

Certainly the authorities have made it clear that replying to some work emails while on a defined, specific stay one-time stay such as a two week holiday staying in a hotel in Phuket is not an issue.

 

But if the "holiday" is a habitual stay that involves many trips, many months, renting housing, purchasing living items then you get on dicier grounds. 

 

 

[Misty]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your lawyers are wrong and gave a lazy answer to an over simplified question. 

Various multinationals advising our firm for many years.

 

I'll take their detailed knowledge of the law over happy talk on an internet forum.

[BritTim]

7 minutes ago, Misty said:

Various multinationals advising our firm for many years.

 

I'll take their detailed knowledge of the law over happy talk on an internet forum.

I will just say that lawyers tend to be extremely risk averse, and they will usually declare grey areas to be illegal, even when it is quite certain that the activity is tolerated in practice.

 

The Labour Department has tried hard to provide guidelines on what can be done without work permits. However, the very existence of the UWP (Urgent Work Permit) intended for those working for a maximum of 15 days and usually less, indicates that even short work assignments in Thailand are often not legal without the Labour Department's permission.

[richard_smith237]

16 minutes ago, Misty said:

Various multinationals advising our firm for many years.

 

I'll take their detailed knowledge of the law over happy talk on an internet forum.

But you are not doing that... because the ‘lawyers you discuss’ do not have detailed knowledge of the situation the Op describes...  The lawyers you are claiming to speak on behalf of have no knowledge of this situation whatsoever. 

You have simply projected what you think ‘various multinationals’ would advise from an extremely risk adverse viewpoint of a grey area. 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

The discussion itself is somewhat ridiculous.. 

 

I know plenty of people who live in Thailand and work on rotation overseas. 

 

They sometimes ‘bring work back with them’ and finish off an assignment from the comfort of their own home after being away working for a month or two....   The labor department has no interest in this whatsoever. 

 

This is something I do from time to time... I’m working oversees, the project is wrapping up - I either continue the ‘wrap up’ at a main office in whichever country it is I’m working, or I’ll just spend a week wrapping up here. 

 

Then, I’ll do ’timesheets and expenses documents' from Thailand (which need to be submitted on a monthly basis)... I’ll reply to work e-mails when necessary. I’ll make travel arrangements to travel to and from work...  In the eyes of some ‘hardliners’ this is all considered work. 

In the eyes of some ‘hardliners’ we’d not be able to book travel to work from within Thailand as this would be considered work, we’d not be able to submit timesheets, we’d not be able to e-mail our work about travel arrangements and hotel bookings etc... 

 

... the hardline viewpoint taken by some on this matter just makes me relieved that they are not the ones in the positions of decision making power who clearly employ more common sense than they are capable of.