My New Solar and ESS room

[Muhendis]

Some few weeks ago I mentioned that I would give a progress update on this technology.

First, for those that are unaware, lead carbon batteries are lead acid with carbon added to the -ve plate mix.

The batteries I bought are Gel Lead Carbon.

They are installed in my new inverter stable with most of the existing kit from the old room.

I needed to extend a few wires to connect to the old system.

The batteries behave very differently from the Gel's they replaced.

 

Detail.

 

Each battery from CSPower is 250Ahr and weighs 77kg 

They are arranged to give a nominal 48v at 750Ahr

Charge controllers are 60A 48V from SRNE.

 

What is different about my new batteries.

 

They charge much faster.

They can be discharged by 80% every day and still give 2000 cycles.

My discharge pattern is 30%/day which is good for 11.6 years.

They run cool.

Temperature range is 20ºC to 30ºC

 

So far the installation has gone well. The new room is built using AAC blocks which I eventually got from Thaiwatsadu. (There was total non-availability for a week or so).

Old wiring was extended to the new location and everything worked fine from switch-on. 

I may be adding environment control but the AAC blocks are keeping out external heat very well so we shall see.

Here's a few pics of the installation.

The dangly wires are feedback to the charge controllers of battery voltage and temperature.

The big black box is my 8kW, heavily modified, inverter.

Other boxes contain protection and isolation components.

 

 

[MJCM]

Wow.

 

That is a nice setup. 

[Bandersnatch]

Please keep us posted  - would be interested to hear how the batteries standup to life in Thailand.

[AlexRRR]

Having had a solar system with 10Kw battery back in AU the battery side off it isnt worth the effort or cost, 10,000AU$, so unless your not needing to run air cons all night and or have black outs batteries no matter how cheap and in Thailand not worth it, but if your just powering lights the odd fan charging phones and the telly then sure you could be running for free....i use to run down my battery in under 4 hrs in winter using air con for heating, summer i ran free for a few months...

[KhunLA]

21 minutes ago, AlexRRR said:

Having had a solar system with 10Kw battery back in AU the battery side off it isnt worth the effort or cost, 10,000AU$, so unless your not needing to run air cons all night and or have black outs batteries no matter how cheap and in Thailand not worth it, but if your just powering lights the odd fan charging phones and the telly then sure you could be running for free....i use to run down my battery in under 4 hrs in winter using air con for heating, summer i ran free for a few months...

Agree, 10,000AU$ = ฿228,070 is a silly price to pay for 10kWh ESS

 

Mine only cost 3946AU$ = ฿90,000 installed, and some would consider that expensive, as cheaper is available and being used by the DIY folks on AN forum.

 

Yes, I do need AC all day & night ????

Edited June 2, 2023 by KhunLA

[AlexRRR]

46 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Agree, 10,000AU$ = ฿228,070 is a silly price to pay for 10kWh ESS

 

Mine only cost 3946AU$ = ฿90,000 installed, and some would consider that expensive, as cheaper is available and being used by the DIY folks on AN forum.

 

Yes, I do need AC all day & night ????

How long do you get out of your batteries before run down? I pay in the hottest month around 2100 for electricity in a condo, thats air con on all night and may be half the day if home...but new air cons, not sure if that would make it better....condo is 100sq m...anyway starting to get back to no aircon on at night and maybe 5 hrs daytime depending....as its still hot

 

Im not so sure for a farang that that solar is the way to go in Thailand due to costs of power here, just seen in the garden state of Victoria AU electricity will be going up 20%, the guy that bought my place would have a smile ear to ear...

[Muhendis]

There are positives in going solar with batteries which transcend the financial aspect.

PEA buys and supplies electricity from environmentally dirty sources. That is a good enough reason for me.

Lead acid batteries are relatively clean to manufacture and have a 98% recyclable content.

Scrap value is worth about 18% of the original purchase price. Oops. That's part of the financial aspect.

 

The big deal for me is the independence I enjoy from reliance on supply from a company which can, and does, change prices and suffers failures from time to time. So payback time is not so relevant for me.

 

More important is the fun I have doing it.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, AlexRRR said:

How long do you get out of your batteries before run down? I pay in the hottest month around 2100 for electricity in a condo, thats air con on all night and may be half the day if home...but new air cons, not sure if that would make it better....condo is 100sq m...anyway starting to get back to no aircon on at night and maybe 5 hrs daytime depending....as its still hot

 

Im not so sure for a farang that that solar is the way to go in Thailand due to costs of power here, just seen in the garden state of Victoria AU electricity will be going up 20%, the guy that bought my place would have a smile ear to ear...

We can use up to 8kWh of ESS during non-producing hrs, 14hrs +/-.   Why we added a 2nd 10kWh ESS to our system, keeping reserve @ 60+%, for longevity purposes.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1268214-solar-8kw-hybrid-inverter-w10kwh-upgraded-to-20kwh-in-sept-2022-essbattery-not-diy/

 

We don't need the grid at all, and have only used sparingly, by choice, not a necessity, so far any way.  First half of rainy season hasn't kicked in yet.   Second half, last year, Aug/Sept/Oct, and no issues, being conservative with use, as ACs not really needed.  

 

[Bandersnatch]

2 hours ago, AlexRRR said:

the battery side off it isnt worth the effort or cost

My 9kWh LFP batteries with 6,000 cycle life cost me ฿68k.

 

For me having power when all around are in darkness is worth it.

 

Solar installations in Thailand cost a fraction of what they cost "back home"

 

My solar system powers my house electric car and electric motorbike payback is 6 years.

 

 

[Requirement]

Muhendis,

 

where did you buy your lead carbon batteries?

 

 

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, Requirement said:

Muhendis,

 

where did you buy your lead carbon batteries?

 

China.

My lead carbons are Gel type as opposed to VRLA

The difference is a lot more than subtle as is the price.

 

If you have a look around Google there are now many suppliers of this technology.

When I got mine there were very few.

 

I went direct to a manufacturer and did my own import using an extremely helpful agent in Bangkok port.

[Requirement]

Thanks for your reply!

Since the application is stationary would it not be more economical to use flooded batteries?
Or is the maintenance to much of a hassle?

[Elkski]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:57 PM, Muhendis said:

The big black box is my 8kW, heavily modified, inverter.

???   Modified?

I bet your wife thinks your brilliant?   Love those buss bars.  What dimensions are they?   They need down time for polishing! 

Are there any gas releashes from lead carbon?  I'm past lifting 77kg things.  Where is the overhead crane. What is that shelf structure made of?   

Have you calculated the efficiency of your total system?

Very cool.   

[Muhendis]

FLA's (flooded lead acid's) are extremely robust but need a lot of TLC because they are thirsty.

I had an auto watering system with mine and made my own deionised water.

Their life expectancy is in the region of 3 years with a depth of discharge not greater than 35% or thereabouts.

FLA's are considerably more temperature sensitive than LC's (lead carbons)

For every 10°C temperature rise above 25°C the battery life expectancy is halved.

Whereas LC's have a much better tolerance and won't start to degrade significantly until the ambient gets above 30°C

Economically speaking, if you consider the relative price difference between FLA's and VRLA with lead carbon the price is not that much greater.

VRLA's with lead carbon have a design life of 10 years

Gel's with lead carbon have a design life of 20 years

What this means is the battery life in float/standby mode.

[patman30]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:03 AM, AlexRRR said:

Having had a solar system with 10Kw battery back in AU the battery side off it isnt worth the effort or cost, 10,000AU$, so unless your not needing to run air cons all night and or have black outs batteries no matter how cheap and in Thailand not worth it, but if your just powering lights the odd fan charging phones and the telly then sure you could be running for free....i use to run down my battery in under 4 hrs in winter using air con for heating, summer i ran free for a few months...

i paid 81k baht each for 15kw 6000 cycle* batteries from felicity solar, now in Thailand
am off grid so definitely worth it
i run quite a few computers 24/7 and aircons 
but AC i bought the most efficient i could find (the difference is huge)
whether the cost is worth it to some is hard to calculate,
as you mention the cost of electricity from the grid can rise steeply at any time

 

Edited April 11 by patman30

[Requirement]

Ah, so the Lead carbon are only available as VRLA and Gel. I thought they made them also as a flooded version.
They seem like a good alternative to LA and Lithium based chemistries.

[Muhendis]

6 minutes ago, Elkski said:

???   Modified?

I bet your wife thinks your brilliant?   Love those buss bars.  What dimensions are they?   They need down time for polishing! 

Are there any gas releashes from lead carbon?  I'm past lifting 77kg things.  Where is the overhead crane. What is that shelf structure made of?   

Have you calculated the efficiency of your total system?

Very cool.   

The inverter was originally a hybrid thing with auto switch between mains and solar.

It didn't have a built in charge controller and I didn't want that anyway.

My charge controllers are from SRNE and very reliable unlike the original inverter.

After a few years of trouble free running it suddenly stopped. There was no dramatic Bang nor did it flash. No billowing clouds of smoke. It simply stopped.

I suspect there was a time sensitive bit of software in the control processor.

Spares were not available because "we discontinued that model some years ago".

I then did what every body does and redesigned the innards. The only original bits are the transformer and the box.

I say I redesigned it but out here in the sticks of Isaan electronic components are not quite as readily obtainable as in Bristol UK where I came from.

So I hunted around and found a few bits and pieces in China courtesy of Alibaba which would be more than adequate to do the job of converting DC to a switched power signal to drive the transformer.

Wonderfull.

I now have a low frequency inverter with an output of 8KW and electronics capable of 12KW.

I think I should mention I also have a very elderly degree in electronic engineering.

Yep. My wife thinks I'm brilliant but that's another matter entirely.

 

Batteries are indeed heavy. I had a couple of kids in the village do the lifting for me. 

 

The frame is steel rectangular tube 75 x 35 x 1.5mm. according to calcs it will deflect in the middle by not more than 1.5mm with a distributed load.

 

Bus bars are copper 15 x 5mm which gives me 75mm² which is ample 🙂 for all the mega amps They have to handle.

The joints are vasalined which works a treat.

Polishing? What on earth for?

 

My LC's do not give off any gas.

 

Efficiency? Don't care.

It gives me what I want all day and all night too.

Watch this space for the upcoming solar panel change.

Mine are knackered after 13 years from a dubious source.

 

[Muhendis]

39 minutes ago, Requirement said:

the Lead carbon are only available as VRLA and Gel.

That's not what I said.

Granted those are the types I spoke of but they could well be available for FLA's

41 minutes ago, Requirement said:

They seem like a good alternative to LA and Lithium based chemistries.

Agreed.

The specs. put them on a par with Lithium the down side being, they would be a tad heavy for mobile applications.

 

[Muhendis]

Addendum to my earlier post.

Batteries are 250Ah each

Cost of LC's including transport and taxes etc. came in at ≈12.5K Baht each.

For those that may not have noticed, I have 12 of them.

 

Further addendum to the support frame. The steel is actually 50 x 25 x 1.5mm.

 

[Elkski]

On 4/11/2024 at 6:18 AM, Muhendis said:

Polishing? What on earth for?

Because this room is cool.  Needs a couple stools and bistro table to hold the beers.  It is nice to be told your smart, even if by a Thai wife.  

 

Its been yesrs since i spoke to a solar door salesman but last week I did and agreed to have them prepare a design and speel.   Typical no tech info payments nearly the same as my power bill for 25 yesrs. 3.5% interest.   By that time I would be close to needung6 new shingles and solar bits might start to fail.   420 watt panels.  Micro inverters on each panel.   Google diagram showed 2 panels in shade of my chimney.    It was obvious its all about profit for them.  Guy didn't answer my question about efficiency loss.  There is an initial panel efficiency warranty. There is a .5% or less drop per year warranty.  But he didn't explain the drop well.   He used 100% as as a start and didn't answer my real question which was  if we start wuth 25% new ans lose .5% esch year what efficiency guarantee do i have when they are 25 years old.   Oh the basic numbers were 17 420 panels, cost 45k USD. I think this included a new roof .  Which is probably 10k.   There would be a 12K USD government tax relief.   Our buy back rate from rocky mountain power is not good at all.   I would attempt the DIY avenue if I ever go solar. 

[Muhendis]

49 minutes ago, Elkski said:

Guy didn't answer my question about efficiency loss.

He didn't answer because he probably didn't know.

50 minutes ago, Elkski said:

But he didn't explain the drop well.

The drop is currently 1% in the first year and 0.5% (or thereabouts per annum thereafter). However that's with the most up-to-date technology.

Older technologies generally offer 1% - 3%  per year.

https://chintglobal.com/blog/n-type-vs-p-type-solar-panels/#:~:text=What is the primary difference,expensive than P-Type panels.

This is a difference in efficiency.

The best is N type which also has a voltage drop per cell of -3mV/ºC whereas P type is 3.5mV/ºC.

This may not seem like a lot but when you calculate the open circuit voltage of a panel at a particular temperature, it can make a significant difference to the maximum input voltage rating of the inverter.

Now.

This is all very well but over the horizon gallops the PERC panel. This fellow has the ability to add some reverse reflected light to the panes output which increases the efficiency yet further to as much as 24%.

But hold your horses there. You can only get the best out of these guys if they are at an angle to the backplane. Mounted on a roof they are not going to achieve the benefits of reflected light.

 

DIY is the way to go. But do some research first.

 

 

 

 

 

[Muhendis]

2 hours ago, Elkski said:

Because this room is cool.  Needs a couple stools and bistro table to hold the beers

I'll drink to that.

Pool table too?

[Muhendis]

I mentioned I would be replacing my 11 year old solar panels earlier.

 

Why do I want to do that?

 

The older panels are well worn out in the sun all day and the output is down enough for me to do something about it.

 

Panels, particularly older tech ones will suffer from micro cracks, reduced intercell conduction, complete shattering of the front glass and UV light protection failure.

Mine also suffered from being rated incorrectly with the sales pitch quoting them as 200W each but the label on the back making them to be 178W each. 

The micro cracks are in the silicon and will make it a bit tricky for electrons to travel from one side to the other.

The burnt parts of the rear plastic layer in picture 2 are caused by the aluminium interconnections going resistive.

The shattered glass in picture 3 is the result of the heat generated by the aluminium interconnections.

Picture 4 shows the brown patches caused by failure of the UV protection layer.

 

 

[Muhendis]

A couple of days ago I removed all the old panels from my carport roof and started assembling the steel supports for the new panels.

[Muhendis]

End of play today and all the new panels are all in place.

Each panel is 550 Watt and seriously big and heavy.

Size is 2.2 metres by 1.1 metres and, coming in at 35kg, highly recommended for industrial use.

The silicon is 'N' type and half cell size.

 

The flat roof is over 3 metres up so we (myself, wife, a nephew and a niece) did some interesting and innovative things with a ladder and some rope.

I noticed that the frame of the panels is a bit floppy so I will be adding a bit more supporting truss work tomorrow.

They don't make 'em like they used to.

[Pink7]

Looks great. Congrats with your new panels and batteries.

 

 

Pink

[Muhendis]

Additional vertical struts added to stop panels waving in the wind. All wiring completed from panels to combiner box in the picture at the far end.

[Muhendis]

I spend many hours yesterday rerouting my cable from their old location on one side of the house to their new location on t'other side.

That's four 16mm² cables (two red and two Blue) somewhere in the region of 20 metres long and definitely not flexible.

 

Today I completed the installation with the final connection, test and commissioning.

 

The difference is, for me, mind boggling. 

Whereas before I was getting about 40A total charging current at peak time, the new panels are giving me 70A at 09:30.

 

I am well pleased with the outcome and a bit grumpy towards the original equipment supplier from 11 years ago.

 

Still got a bit of final touching up to do which shouldn't take too long but probably will.

Edited April 30 by Muhendis

[lom]

8 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

I am well pleased with the outcome and a bit grumpy towards the original equipment supplier from 11 years ago.

Yes, what a jerk selling you 178 W panels that only lasted 11 years!!

[Muhendis]

14 minutes ago, lom said:

Yes, what a jerk selling you 178 W panels that only lasted 11 years!!

 

Good to see someone's paying attention.

 

Those old panels are still good for a few years but with reduced output. I sold 'em all off for 100 Baht each.

The villagers are pleased because they will get on the solar merry-go-round with free power (almost) for their lights, fans and TV.

Not really enough in the old panels to do much else.

The hidden bonus for me is the extra free beers I will be offered when I pop into the village shop/pub.