Sharing custody of a child out of wedlock

[craftyone]

Having a child (unplanned) with GF of 5 years in December.

Talked about marriage in the past but I'm getting some vibes she may not want marriage.

If so this basically leaves me with no custodial rights if I'm correct.

Started reading up on challenging this possibility but curious as to what I'll be dealing with overall with securing future non-o's with a possible reluctant ex.

May have to create thread re the non-o as the list of what's needed is most def something I need GF for frequently.   

Not of retirement age and still working in the US albeit on my own schedule, so it won't be all that difficult to arrange when I'm in Thailand.

Planning on getting a condo near where GF/her parents live either way this turns out as I've always stayed at her parents compound.

I'm more than certain at this point GF parents want me to be involved whether we stay together or not.

So from my limited research the whole process could take months to get an order from the court.

How do I go about this to achieve the best possible custodial results if it comes down to it?

Would this go smoother for me if we were legally married at the time of birth even if we ended up divorcing?

I'm in Ubon city and looking for a lawyer to chat with before I leave in August.  Any recommendations would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

Make sure your name is on the birth certificate.

 

To ensure she agree to that, point out that the child will receive Soc Sec benefits till the age of 18 or 22 if in Uni, if you die prematurely.   Should be all the motivation she needs to ensure your name is on the BC.  See below.

 

Then while in TH, look over your shoulder for that unregistered scooter rider with a dark shield,  full face helmet.

 

With birth certificate, and notarized (I think) statement from her, that you support her and or child financially, you'll qualify for 'support of Thai national' visa.

 

I took in a youngin, not birth father, not married to mother, and got the visa, just using an affidavit stating my financial support of child.  Extended for couple years till I turned 50.

 

Can be quite the tidy sum, for a Thai:

"Within a family, a child can receive up to half of the parent's full retirement or disability benefits. If a child receives survivors benefits, they can get up to 75% of the deceased parent's basic Social Security benefit. There is a limit, however, to the amount of money we can pay to a family."

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10085.pdf

[Kenny202]

Previous post incorrect. A birth certificate with the fathers name is the equivalent of zero in Thailand. And you need to produce more than that if applying for a parental visa. As far as Thailand law is concerned if you are not married to the mother you are not the child's legal father, and in fact if she were to remarry that man would have more parental rights than you. I have a child here and like you wasn't married to the mother and we were in the process of breaking up (she left the child with me). I had to go through the legitimization process through the courts, using a lawyer. It's not really a big deal but will take around three months involving interviews at child welfare where you need people to vouch for you etc....all finalized in a brief court hearing where the judge says yay or nay. In my case the mother was helpful and her and her mother vouched for the length of our relationship etc. It also helped my son is the spitting of me lol. Apparently if the judge isn't convinced he can ask for a DNA test....which not 100% sure or not if that is at the discretion of the mother...ie maybe she will not allow the child to take a DNA test or submit samples? Your Lawyer may advise you on this. A lot will depend on the mothers willingness to help you. Even if she is not probably still possible but I imagine the process will be lengthier and more difficult. Once you jump through all the hoops and get the judgement you need to lodge it at the Amphur (Govt office), which we had more trouble doing than the actual court order. Initially it was clear they had no clue so rather than find out about the process it was easier for them to try and save face....say their office didn't do it and please go somewhere else. Had to take my lawyer up there to talk with them and explain to them their own procedures.

 

On the Visa thing, I believe to get a proper parental visa you have to how more than you are financially supporting the child. The child is meant to live with you....the initial visa you have to take sponsors....witnesses from you Moo Baan (estate where you live) .....show photos where the child will be sleeping etc and actually take the child with you. And take the child with you on yearly applications for parental visa's.

 

Khun LA may be talking about another type of Visa that I believe may only have been available from Malaysia at one point. Family support visa or something? Was a visa that you had to enter / re enter every three months I believe. Looked right into it at one stage but I seem to remember someone said it had been stopped. Bit unclear on all that Ubon Joe (RIP) was the man for all that. I remember at the time, maybe 5 years ago there were a few guys on here replied to a post I made and they were doing it. Best of luck with it all.    

[Liverpool Lou]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

With birth certificate, and notarized (I think) statement from her, that you support her and or child financially, you'll qualify for 'support of Thai national' visa.

It's not as easy or straightforward as that for someone in the position that he describes.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It's not as easy or straightforward as that for someone in the position that he describes.

It was for me ... and she has incentive to list him as the father.   Only if she denies he's the father, would make it difficult ... IMHO

 

YMMV

[Kenny202]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

It was for me ... and she has incentive to list him as the father.   Only if she denies he's the father, would make it difficult ... IMHO

 

YMMV

What visa are you actually talking about and how / where did you get it?

If its the visa you get outside Thailand I believe all you needed was a birth certificate and a letter from the mother? You still had to show 400k in the bank right? 

[KhunLA]

@craftyone

Ignore the naysayers:

https://thaievisa.go.th/non-immigrant-o

 

[RedCardinal]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Make sure your name is on the birth certificate

For custodial rights this makes no difference under Thai law. What the op is looking for is called "legitimization". Can be done via the Family Court, or the local authority if the child has reached an age whereby they can articulate that a given person is their father. I did it via the Family Court when my some was 2. 

 

In terms of enforcing joint custody - very, very hard for a farang father IME.

 

Future visa situation - should be easy while you live as a family. If you separate from the mother it will get more difficult. If the mother becomes uncooperative it can get very difficult.

 

Immigration can be quite hostile to farang parents if the child's Thai parent becomes unhelpful. YMMV.

[RedCardinal]

51 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Ignore the naysayers:

https://thaievisa.go.th/non-immigrant-o

 

For Non-O issued outside Thailand. Inside Thailand you will be required to provide mother's ID and housebook. Also photos and video of parent with child inside and outside parent's registered address. For the op to stay here long term he will need to apply for an extension, which has far more onerous requirements than the info you provided.

[RedCardinal]

@craftyone for reference, I'm a father to a 10 year old. I separated from the mother 8 years ago. I've had to deal with visa applications for a few years now. I used to use multi-entry Non-O and avoid Immigration, but they no longer issue ME, and want parents to go down the extension route. If you want to stay here long term based on parenthood of you child you'll need to navigate this process. If you can afford it I'd go Elite Vis. The time and stress of dealing with Non-O in the situation you describe may be significant.

[timendres]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Make sure your name is on the birth certificate.

 

To ensure she agree to that, point out that the child will receive Soc Sec benefits till the age of 18 or 22 if in Uni, if you die prematurely.   Should be all the motivation she needs to ensure your name is on the BC.  See below.

 

Then while in TH, look over your shoulder for that unregistered scooter rider with a dark shield,  full face helmet.

 

With birth certificate, and notarized (I think) statement from her, that you support her and or child financially, you'll qualify for 'support of Thai national' visa.

 

I took in a youngin, not birth father, not married to mother, and got the visa, just using an affidavit stating my financial support of child.  Extended for couple years till I turned 50.

 

Can be quite the tidy sum, for a Thai:

"Within a family, a child can receive up to half of the parent's full retirement or disability benefits. If a child receives survivors benefits, they can get up to 75% of the deceased parent's basic Social Security benefit. There is a limit, however, to the amount of money we can pay to a family."

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10085.pdf

The survivor benefits for a non-US citizen are debatable.

From SSA:

Quote

 

1. Can I receive Social Security benefits if I am not a U.S. citizen and I live outside the United States?

Generally, we cannot pay Retirement, Survivors, and Disability Insurance benefits to noncitizens after their sixth calendar month outside the United States. However, you might qualify for an exception, which could allow you to receive benefits without visiting the United States. If an exception does not apply, you must be physically and lawfully present in the United States for a full calendar month to begin receiving benefits.

 

 

https://www.ssa.gov/international/payments.html?tl=0

[Kenny202]

1 hour ago, RedCardinal said:

@craftyone for reference, I'm a father to a 10 year old. I separated from the mother 8 years ago. I've had to deal with visa applications for a few years now. I used to use multi-entry Non-O and avoid Immigration, but they no longer issue ME, and want parents to go down the extension route. If you want to stay here long term based on parenthood of you child you'll need to navigate this process. If you can afford it I'd go Elite Vis. The time and stress of dealing with Non-O in the situation you describe may be significant.

I think he still needs to legitimize his child. Has other implications also where in my country (Australia) I was able to make him an Australian citizen by decent. It would be a tragedy to lose all rights to your child if the mother remarried.

 

I have found our IO to be very decent over the years. The first application was a pain in the a$$ but once you have it renewing your visa every year just a formality. Bit of paperwork, a few photos and 400k in the bank. Bear in mind of you will be coming and going you need to report every 90 day. I don't know how that works if you are out of the country. For example if you were out of the country for 6-9 months of the year would they query your need for a 12 month visa? 

[KhunLA]

Let's get pass name on birth certificate, then worry about the rest.  If mother not cooperative, then I'd just walk away.  Too long & stressful legal battle, where winning is iffy.  You'd never get full custody, and joint custody, would be at her whim anyway, and made difficult, easily.

 

Wee one simply needs to be registered as US citizen, then listed as a dependent of father.:

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Acquisition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html

Edited June 3, 2023 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

I know a few Yanks here, with kids, on SS, and they get that extra check or checks for the kids, up to their SS limit.

[Kenny202]

1 hour ago, RedCardinal said:

@craftyone for reference, I'm a father to a 10 year old. I separated from the mother 8 years ago. I've had to deal with visa applications for a few years now. I used to use multi-entry Non-O and avoid Immigration, but they no longer issue ME, and want parents to go down the extension route. If you want to stay here long term based on parenthood of you child you'll need to navigate this process. If you can afford it I'd go Elite Vis. The time and stress of dealing with Non-O in the situation you describe may be significant.

Can you clarify for me.... Embassies outside Thailand no longer issue Non O Family visa's? Or they do but not ME.

In that case what does it mean having a non ME parental visa? Its only good for 3 months or you can't leave the country during the year or ?? I think with the ME one people used to get you had to do a border bounce every 3 months (which in itself is an expense)

 

I think last I heard Savanakhet (Laos) stopped doing them unless the mother was present. And maybe Malaysia was the only close embassy issuing them now. But Malaysia may have ceased issuing them also. I assume you need to show 400k funds in the bank?

 

I have never gotten my head around this and would really appreciate some more info incase my situation changes in the future. 

[khunPer]

13 hours ago, craftyone said:

If so this basically leaves me with no custodial rights if I'm correct.

Yes.

 

To get parental right when not married, you'll need a DNA-test and a certificate from the family court.

 

Another method – however later – is that hen a child is of age 7, you can go together with the mother and child to the local amphor office, and both will testify that you are the father. You will get a legal certificate from the amphor office.

 

Your name on the birth certificate is fine, but it gives you no rights at all. It might be a benefit if your child get your family name.

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Can you clarify for me.... Embassies outside Thailand no longer issue Non O Family visa's? Or they do but not ME.

In that case what does it mean having a non ME parental visa? Its only good for 3 months or you can't leave the country during the year or ?? I think with the ME one people used to get you had to do a border bounce every 3 months (which in itself is an expense)

 

I think last I heard Savanakhet (Laos) stopped doing them unless the mother was present. And maybe Malaysia was the only close embassy issuing them now. But Malaysia may have ceased issuing them also. I assume you need to show 400k funds in the bank?

 

I have never gotten my head around this and would really appreciate some more info incase my situation changes in the future. 

Just think if people read the links I posted, I could probably not need to follow up on my posts.  From link posted above:

Aside from all that .... I'm posting from personal experience ...

... as I already stated, and apparently, nothing has changed since.

 

YMMV

Edited June 3, 2023 by KhunLA

[Kenny202]

11 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Yes.

 

To get parental right when not married, you'll need a DNA-test and a certificate from the family court.

 

Another method – however later – is that hen a child is of age 7, you can go together with the mother and child to the local amphor office, and both will testify that you are the father. You will get a legal certificate from the amphor office.

 

Your name on the birth certificate is fine, but it gives you no rights at all. It might be a benefit if your child get your family name.

No DNA test required unless judge requests it, which maybe happens 30% of the time. What the judge wants to see is proof of a long history with the mother. This could include letters of sponsorship her coming to your country over the years, photos notated with dates and places etc, any documents with you and your GF name on them, transfers of money to her over a few years. Anything you can think of

[Kenny202]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Just think if people read the links I posted, I could probably not need to follow up on my posts.  From link posted above:

Aside from all that .... I'm posting from personal experience ...

... as I already stated, and apparently, nothing has changed since.

 

YMMV

With all due respect, are saying you are on the ME Non O now? or used to be. "Apparently" seems a bit oblique. 

Would really appreciate knowing which consulate / embassy also. I am sure I read somewhere last 2 or 3 years things had changed. If you could be so kind to send me a PM if you would rather not discuss in an open forum. 

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

With all due respect, are saying you are on the ME Non O now? or used to be. "Apparently" seems a bit oblique. 

Would really appreciate knowing which consulate / embassy also. I am sure I read somewhere last 2 or 3 years things had changed. If you could be so kind to send me a PM if you would rather not discuss in an open forum. 

I haven't had that visa in many years, but from the TH Imm site, reads as nothing has changed.

 

Got mine at USA consulate, and extended here/Nong Khai and or Udon Thani, TH, guessing about 3 yrs worth of extensions till I hit 50.

[Kenny202]

34 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I haven't had that visa in many years, but from the TH Imm site, reads as nothing has changed.

 

Got mine at USA consulate, and extended here/Nong Khai and or Udon Thani, TH, guessing about 3 yrs worth of extensions till I hit 50.

Yeah I think you will find many things written into Immigration rules and reality are not the same. IO seem to make up their own rules. But I think you will find things have changed. I think the first time I enquired maybe 3 years ago they had changed the rules at Savanakhet to say the mother of the child had to be present and the only other available office was Malaysia. About a year ago pretty sure Ubon Joe told me even Malaysia had stopped issuing them

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Yeah I think you will find many things written into Immigration rules and reality are not the same. IO seem to make up their own rules. But I think you will find things have changed. I think the first time I enquired maybe 3 years ago they had changed the rules at Savanakhet to say the mother of the child had to be present and the only other available office was Malaysia. About a year ago pretty sure Ubon Joe told me even Malaysia had stopped issuing them

Not my experience in TH, and yet to be surprised, I think, of any IO asking for something other than what the TH Imm site stated I needed.  Actually less, most cases, especially the 'support Thai national' visa, though that was done in USA, and I mailed it in from here, via USA address ????

 

That's the Hua Hin, Udon Thani, Nong Khai & Ranong offices.  No surprises, not extras asked for.

 

YMMV

[geisha]

OP, why don’t you have a good calm conversation with your girlfriend before ?? You’re together 5 years, surely you can ask nicely what her intentions are ?!   I’m a bit surprised she doesn’t want to marry you, is there a reason ? Not being nosy, but knowing might be an indication of what is awaiting you once the baby is born ! Are you even sure the baby is yours ?? 
Surely your * problems* of visas is secondary to the many bridges to be crossed with a new born ?
Just my honest opinion. 

[RedCardinal]

On 6/3/2023 at 3:40 PM, Kenny202 said:

Can you clarify for me.... Embassies outside Thailand no longer issue Non O Family visa's?

None issue ME Non-O visas based on Thai family anymore.  That's from what I can find out here and contacting some of the nearby embassies/consulates.

On 6/3/2023 at 3:40 PM, Kenny202 said:

Or they do but not ME.

In that case what does it mean having a non ME parental visa? Its only good for 3 months or you can't leave the country during the year or ?? I think with the ME one people used to get you had to do a border bounce every 3 months (which in itself is an expense)

With ME you needed to leave every 90 days, so you never needed to do 90-day reporting.  No need for re-entry permit either.  As someone who travels frequently, this visa quite suited me, and given the stress and time-loss blackhole that my local Immigration office is, I was quite happy to travel to Penang annually to get a new visa.  That's no longer an option.  Of course, 90-day bounces may not suit everyone, but I had that down to a fine-art also with flying to KL in AM, pass through transfers (never enter Malaysia), and fly straight back. Home by lunchtime.  Anyhow - this option is no longer possible anymore. 

[RedCardinal]

On 6/3/2023 at 3:40 PM, Kenny202 said:

I assume you need to show 400k funds in the bank?

Missed this - yes, you had to show 400k in Thai bank for ME.  No more ME, so mute point now.

 

 On the 400K - you need to show this if you switch from TV to Non-O Family in-country.  I don't think you need this to get a 90-day Non-O from an embassy/consulate.  You will also need to show the 400k for annual extensions.

 

Another thing to note - your location may matter.  Different Immigration offices sometimes make up their own rules.  I'm in Phuket.  Different regions may have slightly different rules.  YMMV so take care when reading experiences from others that differences may be down to the office they used.

[RedCardinal]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:08 PM, KhunLA said:

Not my experience in TH, and yet to be surprised, I think, of any IO asking for something other than what the TH Imm site stated I needed.  Actually less, most cases, especially the 'support Thai national' visa, though that was done in USA, and I mailed it in from here, via USA address ????

 

That's the Hua Hin, Udon Thani, Nong Khai & Ranong offices.  No surprises, not extras asked for.

I suspect many of us will have different experiences, depending on Immigration office, IO, direction of wind on a given day etc.  But every year I've had to deal with Non-O Family here in Thailand has introduced something new.  This year was video call with son inside/outside the house with a tour of the rooms.  There was a recent news story here in Phuket where a father was required to provide the title deed from his rented home to prove it had no encumbrances on the back (I've no idea why this had any bearing on his Non-O application).  From my own experience, I've found being a parent with joint custody where the child lives with his mother is one of the trickier visa applications to navigate.  Had I known what I know now some years ago I would have happily paid up for Elite Visa. 

[Kenny202]

39 minutes ago, RedCardinal said:

I suspect many of us will have different experiences, depending on Immigration office, IO, direction of wind on a given day etc.  But every year I've had to deal with Non-O Family here in Thailand has introduced something new.  This year was video call with son inside/outside the house with a tour of the rooms.  There was a recent news story here in Phuket where a father was required to provide the title deed from his rented home to prove it had no encumbrances on the back (I've no idea why this had any bearing on his Non-O application).  From my own experience, I've found being a parent with joint custody where the child lives with his mother is one of the trickier visa applications to navigate.  Had I known what I know now some years ago I would have happily paid up for Elite Visa. 

Thanks for all your detailed replies. Appreciated. Got my head around it all now for all the good its worth as the ME no longer available lol. I have been on the parental visa for 5 years now and apart from the multiple hoops you need to jump through on the initial application, I have found consecutive years pretty much a formality. Never any dramas. The only quirk is they ask for the 400k in the bank 2 months before which I believe in their own rules is only required on the day of application. I bring my child along, three photos of him inside and outside the house and all the paperwork and away we go. One year they did ask for a copy of every single page of my passport (90% are blank) which I think was a request from their HO for reasons best known to themselves. 

 

I have always had full time care of my son, his mother disappeared long ago. Always wondered what would happen in a share care situation if ever she tried that. They indicated to me sometime ago parental visas were only available to foreigners whom had full time care which seemed ridiculous. I asked how does a father get on that does the right thing and wants to see and support his children even if he doesn't have full time care....rather than simply does a runner? Blank open mouthed stare. Anyone here doing the parental visa that doesn't have full time care, or has very little actual contact with their children? 

[RedCardinal]

4 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Anyone here doing the parental visa that doesn't have full time care

I fit this description.  I asked about this previously, and @ubonjoe told me long ago that the immigration act makes no reference to a family unit, and that so long as you could show that the child does stay with you at times it should be sufficient.  I've told IOs about my son living in a different region, and I've never been told directly that Non-O (Thai Family) requires fulltime care.  I have had to jump through some hoops to satisfy the requirements, but so far I'm still here.  Having an accommodating mother is a must-have though (I pay for everything, so it's in her interest to help).