World History in Thailand - lack of or Arrogance?

[KhaoYai]

Firstly, can I say that this is not intended to be a Thailand Bashing thread.

 

Over the years I've become aware of the lack of education in Thailand - especially in rural government schools.  I believe things are improving but when it comes to history, there seems to be a total lack of anything 'Western or European'.

 

It would be fair to say that kids in the UK are not taught much Asian history too but given that the Industrial Revolution, that changed the world faster in 250 years than it had previously changed in millennia, affected all countries.  I would have thought that even a basic understanding of what brought humans to where they are now would be at the core of history teaching in any country.  The same could be said about WW2 but I believe there are reasons for the lack of teaching on that.

 

Although I've been aware of it for a long time, what really kick started my interest in this matter came in a discussion with an ex wife who believed cars were invented in Japan.  From that stemmed a lot of questions (from me) such as where do you think steel comes from? Etc. etc. etc.  My then wife either didn't know the answers to most of my questions or her answers were rooted in Asia.

 

We have of course, moved on from the Industrial Revolution and countries large or small, Asian, Western or otherwise are all responsible for technological inventions and general progress.  However, it all began in England around 1750 and I do not say that with the slightest arrogance, its just a fact.

 

Why this is of interest to me is that I believe it helps to explain something I have often experienced.  Many times I've given advice to (Thai) family or friends and been totally ignored.  That advice has not come from any desire to appear smarter than the recipients, it comes from experience.  For example, I spent a large part of my working life in the motor trade, I'm a little behind the times now but I still have a broad knowledge of cars, bikes and most things mechanical.  Likewise with domestic construction - where I moved to after the motor trade.

 

Sometimes its more than being ignored, its a total dismissal but carried out (mostly) politely. The feeling that comes from it is 'you are a stupid farang, how could you know'?

 

For example, many years ago when I had no tools in Thailand, I took my car to a local garage for repair. I won't bore you with the details but I knew exactly what was wrong with it and how to fix it - I just didn't have any tools.  The garage seemd to be struggling to carry out the repair so I offered my assistance, telling them of my previous career.  This was dismissed and I was told that they knew what they were doing, it was just proving more difficult than usual. The struggling continued until after several hours I decided enough was enough, walked into the workshop, picked up their tools and showed them how to do it.  Prior to that, the overall feeling that I was getting was that I was a farang, how could I know? When I left the garage I didn't get the feeling that I'd gone up in their estimation, it just felt like they thought I'd been lucky. I've had many similar experiences since.

 

The ex that thought cars were invented in Japan also seems to believe that the much of what we have in the modern world began in Japan or Asia.  She thought that Toyotas, for example, are a Thai car, totally built in Thailand - although she accepted that the parent company is Japanese.

 

So, have others had similar experiences and can our teaching community shed any light on this?  I suspect it comes from the basic lack of any Western and thus 'World' history in Thai education.  I'm not engaging in any form of one-upmanship here, I'm just stating facts.  Whilst its a fact that the roots of industry began with the Industrial Revolution, nobody can deny that those roots have been refined over the years and utilised/improved all over the world. Some of the finest products now come from Asia and technology has no borders, but the attitude in Thailand still seems to be that of 'you are a farang, you know nothing'.

 

Can it be explained by a lack of education, is it arrogance - or both?

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by KhaoYai

[Dmaxdan]

7 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Can it be explained by a lack of education, is it arrogance - or both?

I would say lack of interest more than anything. The Thailand bubble doesn't extend very far beyond it's borders from my experience. 

[Pink Mist]

A Baiting troll post and personal attack have been removed.

 

9. You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages. You will respect other members and post in a civil manner. Personal attacks, insults or hate speech posted on the forum or sent by private message are not allowed.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, Dmaxdan said:

I would say lack of interest more than anything. The Thailand bubble doesn't extend very far beyond it's borders from my experience. 

I tend to agree and I think it goes further than that.  An ex who was not from Bangkok but lived and worked there, knew how to get to work and back, where to buy food and very little else in relation to the geography of the city she'd chosen to live in.  Regionally, she argued with me about Burma, denying it had any coastline.  I had to show her a map to prove it.

Edited June 9, 2023 by KhaoYai

[ThailandRyan]

The way I look at it, and tell me if I am wrong, is that most Thai's do not look past there own sphere of influence.  If it does not affect them they do not seem to care or want to know and will argue with you just to save face.  Even when you show them, and not to prove them wrong, but to help educate them or expand there knowledge they seem to really be disinterested.

[KhaoYai]

11 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Even when you show them, and not to prove them wrong, but to help educate them or expand there knowledge they seem to really be disinterested.

Yes, but don't you find they are more likely to take notice of another Thai.

[ThailandRyan]

1 minute ago, KhaoYai said:

Yes, but don't you find they are more likely to take notice of another Thai.

Not unless it is to obtain gossip material for others.  Thai women love to talk trash, yet when you as a foreigner make a comment your told not to speak bad about others.  It upset my now ex-wife when she finally realized I could understand, speak and read Thai.  I had told her for years I understood what she was saying and when it dawned on her I was hearing to much she switched to speaking Khmer. 

[herfiehandbag]

The ignorance is quite close to home - I remember explaining to the Head of English at the school I taught in that my father had fought in Burma in 1944- 45. 

 

Why? She asked!

 

A well educated woman ( Masters Degree), born and brought up in Chiang Rai 40 km from Burma, and totally unaware of the Second World War!

 

I could understand not knowing much about the fighting in Europe, but this was just up the road!

Edited June 9, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[moogradod]

The OP has a very valid point here. And it extends far beyond World History to many aspects of life.

 

Now you always have to distinguish between Knowledge - which is just that (nowadays an Internet search could help to compensate your own) and Understanding in a broad and narrow sense. Broad because what you know may be connected to other phenomena (actually the usual case) - this needs a wider horizon and broad knowledge of the effects of that dependence. Narrow because it might be quite concentrated on a single thing (like how to repair an Aircon)

 

Thais may sometimes be very good at the narrow understanding - and it is understandable that they might be reluctant to accept advice from a foreigner and probably non-specialist in their field of expertise then. And there may be cases where indeed the circumstances in Thailand are different from what you know (because of climate or other maybe even sociological circumstances).

 

But when it comes to a broad understanding the deficiencies of the Thai Education System might play a significant role. Indeed in average they seem not to understand how things interact and are dependend on each other - like in economics (even the most simple - everybody knows the joke of "raise the price if the demand goes down to compensate for your losses). Of course this is a severe flaw of the simplest knowledge. Not because people are not inteligent, but because they were not educated. Most do not seem to have the slightest idea what a business plan is and how important this approach is.

 

It is in this area that valuable advice from a Western University Graduate in Economics  is even turned down. And I find this is disturbing. It may be their pride to admit that they do not know and feel inferior and then they may simply ignore the importance of a business or budget planning, because this implies to think about something that lies in the future and somehow their minds are programmed to think about what is now - thinking about the future later because its planning cannot be done anyway since you cannot know what will actually come. Maybe you win in the lottery ? This seems to be a very common mind setting here - a cultural thing rather than ignorance. I face quite a lot of difficulties to convey this idea of longer range thinking even to my Thai wife which I know for more than 20 years.

 

Now as far as pure knowlege is concerned the deficiencies of the schooling system become even more obvious. They do not learn very much about the basics of Mathematics, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, especially Multiple Languages and these things that everybody in Western countries learns. My stepdaughter attends a technical college with the main aim of "Marketing". I did never see a plan what she is acutally learning. She seems to understand English a bit but far from being of use in a business context. Languages are extremely important and may at times  get you a job only because of your ability to speak a rare language.

 

Then - it cannot be denied - I must mention the possiblity of a xenophobic mindset (to what extend is of course quite individual). "A foreigner telling me what is right and wrong ?". Big smile in the best case, total ignorance for what you have said with the best intentions. On top comes another cultural issue I think. Thais like it simple. Complicated although helpful approaches are not "sanuk". And thats it then. Dropped.

 

Anyway, the most important thing is that we as individuals get along well. No anger, no greed. Honesty. Based on that, slowly slowly a more sophisticated intellectual landscape and education may grow. I hope we just see the very beginning of that.

Edited June 9, 2023 by moogradod

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

It upset my now ex-wife when she finally realized I could understand, speak and read Thai.

I understand far more than I ever admit to and I'll keep it that way as long as I can - the things you hear when they don't think you understand can be very revealing.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, moogradod said:

They do not learn very much about the basics of Mathematics, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, especially Multiple Languages and these things that everybody in Western countries learns.

I took a look at my stepson's timetable once - the amount of time spent on Buddha and what I call 'I love Thailand' lessons was unbelievable.  In essence there's nothing wrong with teaching such subjects but when it comes to them taking preference over the core subjects, in my opinion, there is - and very much so. In addition, from what I could make out, his history lessons were almost completely related to Thailand's royal dynasties.

 

The job of a school is to provide a child with the basic skills they will need for their lives and careers. Hopefully that will also lead to higher education with more of a leaning towards their vocation and self deveopment.  Through these skills, disavantaged children may be able to achieve social mobility - at least that's the model I was educated under.

 

Could it be that certain groups have little interest in people becoming socially mobile and don't want too many kids to become so educated that they start to think for themselves?

Edited June 9, 2023 by KhaoYai

[1FinickyOne]

11 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

'you are a farang, you know nothing'.

Well, any thread that begins w/this is not Thai bashing???

 

So, lets say for example, a farang goes back to his Gf's village - poor farmers, not much formal education, farmers who know how to do necessary things for farms... And they lead a simple life... quite pleasant for what they need to get by happily in their own world...

 

And their daughter returns w/a fellow who cannot read the newspaper or even understand when the news is spoken on the television. He cannot hold the simplest conversation, but he seems to have some money that he spends on beer. The beer part is ok, but he doesn't seem very bright or otherwise have much to offer - he can barely eat the food... 

 

And then this farang drinks too much beer and starts acting really stupid... 

 

Yes, I have seen this type of behavior. The guy might be 'accomplished' in the West, but is a total moron in the village... should they respect him and where he comes from? 

 

 

[nobodysfriend]

13 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Can it be explained by a lack of education, is it arrogance - or both?

Ignorance .

I wanted to talk to my ( not close ) stepdaughter ( she finished University ) , about her Philosophy in life ... her personal values , what her decisions are based on , but she had no clue what I was trying to talk about , she doe not know what ' Philosophy " means . Sad .

[actonion]

Having  met a Thai woman on one of these online dating i sites i asked her   what were  her interests, she replied going to the Market  and making merit at the Temple.  !!

[actonion]

2 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Well, any thread that begins w/this is not Thai bashing???

 

So, lets say for example, a farang goes back to his Gf's village - poor farmers, not much formal education, farmers who know how to do necessary things for farms... And they lead a simple life... quite pleasant for what they need to get by happily in their own world...

 

And their daughter returns w/a fellow who cannot read the newspaper or even understand when the news is spoken on the television. He cannot hold the simplest conversation, but he seems to have some money that he spends on beer. The beer part is ok, but he doesn't seem very bright or otherwise have much to offer - he can barely eat the food... 

 

And then this farang drinks too much beer and starts acting really stupid... 

 

Yes, I have seen this type of behavior. The guy might be 'accomplished' in the West, but is a total moron in the village... should they respect him and where he comes from? 

 

 

Teach them the meaning of respect first, then  they might

[kennw]

1 hour ago, nobodysfriend said:

Ignorance .

I wanted to talk to my ( not close ) stepdaughter ( she finished University ) , about her Philosophy in life ... her personal values , what her decisions are based on , but she had no clue what I was trying to talk about , she doe not know what ' Philosophy " means . Sad .

This has been a good topic of conversation, I hope that some of those lower states in the USA that are restricting what kids can read about their history take note.

[AlfonsV]

A man organized training projects for youths on behalf of a foundation in several countries in Asia and Central America. After only 2 visits to Thailand, he summarized his impression as follows: "Here, form means everything, content means nothing". He was referring to the many ceremonies for teachers, officials, uniformed people and monks, flag roll calls, group photos, presentation of gift baskets, etc.
 

The problem discussed in this forum is the glaring shortage in school education that has been lamented for decades, perpetuated by poorly qualified teachers, especially in rural areas. It is a mix of ignorance, disinterest, belief in authority and pride in "Thainess" which may then lead to arrogance. Some years ago in Thailand, an internationally binding English baseline test was held among all Thai(!) English teachers. I forget how many teachers there were, 20,000 or 40,000? Half of the English teachers failed the test and only 6 (sic!) in the whole country passed the test 100%! Should we laugh or cry? The outcry from politicians and journalists faded as quickly as the one about the annual Smoky Season in the North.
 

About cars: How many Thais don't know that Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen and Porsche are German products! Apropos general knowledge: Almost all Thais "confuse" Austria with Australia, if they even know that Austria exists. They are always surprised that the symbol of the Red Cross is the inverse in color of the Swiss national flag and that the founder was a Swiss. Or that England is an island. Or you are asked if Brazil is in Africa. If you mention Germany you often get Hitler mentioned immediately (with an admiring undertone) to show that the guy "knows" something, but without any idea about WW2 and the crimes of the NAZIS. "Jews" - who are they?
 

It's just more comfortable to watch stereotypical soap operas or European football where stars even can be called by their names. But honestly: In Europe surveys on the street also show a frightening level of knowledge and absurd answers to the simplest questions.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by AlfonsV
samll corrections

[gomangosteen]

History. Suggest you check what is currently taught in your country of origin's 2023 curriculum. 

I'd suggest it is vastly different than what the memories here are, relics of the 'empire' and old war stories. 

Barely relevant in 2023.

[wwest5829]

13 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

The way I look at it, and tell me if I am wrong, is that most Thai's do not look past there own sphere of influence.  If it does not affect them they do not seem to care or want to know and will argue with you just to save face.  Even when you show them, and not to prove them wrong, but to help educate them or expand there knowledge they seem to really be disinterested.

Just an observation ... sounds like rural USA. Around the globe, I suppose. Causes problems if they push their ethnocentric thinking on others.

[mikesil]

I'm an MIT graduate and spent 50 years working in electronics and computers.  My wife and kids think I'm not smart enough to be the village idiot.  They set out one day to buy a computer --- spent a huge amount on an old, outdated, used computer.  About a year later, when the shortcomings were obvious even to them, they bought another one, this time new.  Then the new one had to go back for various fixes and upgrades, none of which really worked.  I was informed the other day, that it's time for a new computer.

 

Any suggestion that I be consulted before the purchase is always met with the universal response:  "you just don't understand Thailand".

 

I guess I don't.

 

[LittleBear57]

10 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I took a look at my stepson's timetable once - the amount of time spent on Buddha and what I call 'I love Thailand' lessons was unbelievable.  In essence there's nothing wrong with teaching such subjects but when it comes to them taking preference over the core subjects, in my opinion, there is - and very much so. In addition, from what I could make out, his history lessons were almost completely related to Thailand's royal dynasties.

 

The job of a school is to provide a child with the basic skills they will need for their lives and careers. Hopefully that will also lead to higher education with more of a leaning towards their vocation and self deveopment.  Through these skills, disavantaged children may be able to achieve social mobility - at least that's the model I was educated under.

 

Could it be that certain groups have little interest in people becoming socially mobile and don't want too many kids to become so educated that they start to think for themselves?

When teaching it was amazing how many times the kids didn't show for a lesson. Asking why reasons were, Gone to Temple. Not finished scouting lesson. Have to visit nurse. Not back from swimming lesson. This was the whole class.

[Surasak]

38 minutes ago, mikesil said:

I'm an MIT graduate and spent 50 years working in electronics and computers.  My wife and kids think I'm not smart enough to be the village idiot.  They set out one day to buy a computer --- spent a huge amount on an old, outdated, used computer.  About a year later, when the shortcomings were obvious even to them, they bought another one, this time new.  Then the new one had to go back for various fixes and upgrades, none of which really worked.  I was informed the other day, that it's time for a new computer.

 

Any suggestion that I be consulted before the purchase is always met with the universal response:  "you just don't understand Thailand".

 

I guess I don't.

 

I think most of us foreigner's do understand Thailand. Its more the disbelief of what we see and hear that can make life a little confusing here.

[glegolo18]

It is the very same with the education of geography, they do not know anything... Unless they have had a falang within the family so they know how to say; Sweden, Norway, Denmark or England... But point it out on a map, forget it......

Edited June 10, 2023 by glegolo18

[glegolo18]

13 hours ago, moogradod said:

The OP has a very valid point here. And it extends far beyond World History to many aspects of life.

 

Now you always have to distinguish between Knowledge - which is just that (nowadays an Internet search could help to compensate your own) and Understanding in a broad and narrow sense. Broad because what you know may be connected to other phenomena (actually the usual case) - this needs a wider horizon and broad knowledge of the effects of that dependence. Narrow because it might be quite concentrated on a single thing (like how to repair an Aircon)

 

Thais may sometimes be very good at the narrow understanding - and it is understandable that they might be reluctant to accept advice from a foreigner and probably non-specialist in their field of expertise then. And there may be cases where indeed the circumstances in Thailand are different from what you know (because of climate or other maybe even sociological circumstances).

 

But when it comes to a broad understanding the deficiencies of the Thai Education System might play a significant role. Indeed in average they seem not to understand how things interact and are dependend on each other - like in economics (even the most simple - everybody knows the joke of "raise the price if the demand goes down to compensate for your losses). Of course this is a severe flaw of the simplest knowledge. Not because people are not inteligent, but because they were not educated. Most do not seem to have the slightest idea what a business plan is and how important this approach is.

 

It is in this area that valuable advice from a Western University Graduate in Economics  is even turned down. And I find this is disturbing. It may be their pride to admit that they do not know and feel inferior and then they may simply ignore the importance of a business or budget planning, because this implies to think about something that lies in the future and somehow their minds are programmed to think about what is now - thinking about the future later because its planning cannot be done anyway since you cannot know what will actually come. Maybe you win in the lottery ? This seems to be a very common mind setting here - a cultural thing rather than ignorance. I face quite a lot of difficulties to convey this idea of longer range thinking even to my Thai wife which I know for more than 20 years.

 

Now as far as pure knowlege is concerned the deficiencies of the schooling system become even more obvious. They do not learn very much about the basics of Mathematics, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, especially Multiple Languages and these things that everybody in Western countries learns. My stepdaughter attends a technical college with the main aim of "Marketing". I did never see a plan what she is acutally learning. She seems to understand English a bit but far from being of use in a business context. Languages are extremely important and may at times  get you a job only because of your ability to speak a rare language.

 

Then - it cannot be denied - I must mention the possiblity of a xenophobic mindset (to what extend is of course quite individual). "A foreigner telling me what is right and wrong ?". Big smile in the best case, total ignorance for what you have said with the best intentions. On top comes another cultural issue I think. Thais like it simple. Complicated although helpful approaches are not "sanuk". And thats it then. Dropped.

 

Anyway, the most important thing is that we as individuals get along well. No anger, no greed. Honesty. Based on that, slowly slowly a more sophisticated intellectual landscape and education may grow. I hope we just see the very beginning of that.

well written Sir,

[BritManToo]

17 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I believe things are improving but when it comes to history, there seems to be a total lack of anything 'Western or European'.

They don't know their own history either.

But I suspect few western people know anything of Asian history either.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, mikesil said:

Any suggestion that I be consulted before the purchase is always met with the universal response:  "you just don't understand Thailand".

Try,

If you use your money to buy a computer, you can choose.

If you use my money to buy a computer, I choose.

 

It's really easy.

In my home I choose everything I pay for (obviously items over 500bht).

[BritManToo]

6 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

And then this farang drinks too much beer and starts acting really stupid... 

No Thai would ever do that!

[BritManToo]

14 hours ago, moogradod said:

They do not learn very much about the basics of Mathematics, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, especially Multiple Languages and these things that everybody in Western countries learns.

I didn't know anyone in the UK who could speak a foreign language.

And French/German/Spanish in UK schools was a joke, I know I used to teach French and German.

[Andycoops]

Lack of education and ignorance.

[1FinickyOne]

45 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

No Thai would ever do that!

I never said they wouldn't... but even still, it does not tend to make one interesting or attractive to me... whatever their nationality...