April Insurance -33% increase with no claims since joining

[atpeace]

Looking for a high deductible (150,000-300,000) plan with inpatient coverage of 3-5 million baht.  Any recommendations would be appreciated.  I'm 56, no pre-existing conditions and not overweight.  Thanks

[scubascuba3]

i thought one of their sales points was no increase unless a claim

[atpeace]

9 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

i thought one of their sales points was no increase unless a claim

I was unaware of this claim but apparently they changed that policy.  Being 56 probably triggered the increase but 33% is outrageous.  They increased it substantially last year also from 28k to 33k.  43k is the new quote with a 165k deductible and no claims. More than a 50% increase in 2 years.  My broker just told me five minutes ago if I increased my deductible to 327k the premium would be 31.5K.  Better but still a shock.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

April is an insurance broker. Which insurance company had they placed your cover with?

[simon43]

Is this April Insurance International (France) or April Insurance Thailand?  (Different policy conditions).

[atpeace]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

April is an insurance broker. Which insurance company had they placed your cover with?

 

4 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

April is an insurance broker. Which insurance company had they placed your cover with?

LMG

 

[atpeace]

4 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Is this April Insurance International (France) or April Insurance Thailand?  (Different policy conditions).

April International and how can I contact April Thailand?  I have gone to a few sites and they always ask for nationality.  Then I am only offered international plans. 

 

[scubascuba3]

10 minutes ago, atpeace said:

I was unaware of this claim but apparently they changed that policy.  Being 56 probably triggered the increase but 33% is outrageous.  They increased it substantially last year also from 28k to 33k.  43k is the new quote with a 165k deductible and no claims. More than a 50% increase in 2 years.  My broker just told me five minutes ago if I increased my deductible to 327k the premium would be 31.5K.  Better but still a shock.

I think the norm is a shock every year or so. It will only go up, if you end up cancelling eventually because it's unaffordable maybe it's worth considering alternative options

[atpeace]

5 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

I think the norm is a shock every year or so. It will only go up, if you end up cancelling eventually because it's unaffordable maybe it's worth considering alternative options

Might happen but in the end it still easily fits in my budget but I think there are better plans.  For example, the local insurance vs international that was mentioned above.  Stupid me didn't realize I was on an international plan.

 

[Sheryl]

He has April Thailand not April international.

 

Their policies are underwritten by LMG.

 

It is actually one of the best -- perhaps even the best -- of the Thai-issued policies. That and Aetna, IMO. (Though "least worse" may be a better term than "best" when discussing Thai-issued insurance).

 

No insurer can guarantee no premium increase unless you have a claim. All insurers increase premiums in response to inflation/rising health care costs and any with a viable business plan will also increase based on age. Such increases are predictable and can be estimated in advance. The older you get, the greater the increases as you move into new age brackets. this is normal.

 

Some insurers' age related increases occur annually, others in 5 year age brackets. If OP has just experienced a 33% increase then he likely has a policy which uses 5 year age brackets and has just jumped into a new 5 year bracket - in which cases any increases in the next 4 years will be quite small and limited to inflation. Then in year 5 he will again see a large increase and so on.

 

The whole point to insurance is risk sharing. A policy which will raise your rates based on your claims history (which many Thai issued policies do -- but usually in addition to, not instead of, age-related increases) is highly undesirable to put it mildly. These policies often give a  "no claims bonus" each year but again, it is short-sighted to seek such a policy since it does not offer the protection that a policy should...you can and often will be priced out as soon as your health worsens/you have large claims and this undercuts the whole purpose of health insurance.

 

That you have had no claims so far does not mean you won't have a huge claim in the near future and it would be very, very unwise to base your insurance decisions on the fact that you have had no claims so far and are n good health so far.

 

The purpose in being insured is to transfer the risk of health care costs to an insurer. It is not expected (and certainly not to be hoped) that you will receive insurance payouts equal to what you pay in premiums. Most people will not. A minority will receive that much or many times more -- and the former group essentially subsidizes the latter. There is no way to predict in advance which group you will fall into, which is why it makes sense to be insured.

 

OP you can get as much as a little over 300,000 baht deductible with  April Thailand. Even though you may have elected to take that initially, you can do so now...and it will lower your premiums.  Contact your broker or the insurer directly.  Just be sure you can afford the deductible not only now but indefinitely as you age, because while you can add or increase a deductible at any time there is no guarantee you can later reduce it.

 

If nonetheless you want to change policies I strongly suggest you get an internationally issued expatriate policy not a Thai-issued policy. These will also increase rates as you age, and irregardless of whether you have had a claim - which as explained is a good, not bad, sign as it means your premiums will nto be affected by claims or worsening health status/risk profile.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

2 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Might happen but in the end it still easily fits in my budget but I think there are better plans.  For example, the local insurance vs international that was mentioned above.  Stupid me didn't realize I was on an international plan.

 

You will probably be better served sticking with an international plan. Local policies are usually less broad in cover and local insurers may not always be as professional when it comes to paying claims.

 

 

[Sheryl]

15 minutes ago, atpeace said:

April International and how can I contact April Thailand?  I have gone to a few sites and they always ask for nationality.  Then I am only offered international plans. 

 

This is the website for April Thailand.

 

https://www.april-international.com/en/long-term-international-health-insurance/myhealth-thailand

 

And it is what you already have.

 

There is absolutely no advantage -- and several disadvantages - to getting a policy from April Thailand vs April international. You come under Thai rather than EU insurance regulations. And it does not cost less.

[Sheryl]

Just now, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

You will probably be better served sticking with an international plan. Local policies are usually less broad in cover and local insurers may not always be as professional when it comes to paying claims.

 

 

totally agree but in fact what he currently has is a local policy.

 

It is April Thailand, underwritten by LMG.

 

I think he has some idea that there could be a plan for expatriates that covers them only in Thailand, and  nowhere else, and would cost less.

 

There is not AFAIK. And if there were, no reason for it to cost any less. Most  ex-pat  policies offer different zones of cover (with worldwide including US being the most expensive). A few offer with zones limited to a few countries in SE Asia. I haven't seen any that limit to Thailand only,  and there would be little reason for/advantage to it.

 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Sheryl is correct.

 

Best to get health insurance from an insurer domiciled outside Thailand. Cover will likely be better and claims handling will be more professional. 

 

April's office in Thailand can only give you quotes and cover from Thai insurers due to insurance regulations here. You'll need to contact April's office in Europe to get proper international cover.

[atpeace]

12 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This is the website for April Thailand.

 

https://www.april-international.com/en/long-term-international-health-insurance/myhealth-thailand

 

And it is what you already have.

 

There is absolutely no advantage -- and several disadvantages - to getting a policy from April Thailand vs April international. You come under Thai rather than EU insurance regulations. And it does not cost less.

Thanks!

 

[atpeace]

8 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Sheryl is correct.

 

Best to get health insurance from an insurer domiciled outside Thailand. Cover will likely be better and claims handling will be more professional. 

 

April's office in Thailand can only give you quotes and cover from Thai insurers due to insurance regulations here. You'll need to contact April's office in Europe to get proper international cover.

I understand but as an extremely healthy person and hasn't had an insurance claim in 20 years outside of a cycling accident (a runner now :)),  I think I should be fine with a reputable company like AXA that provides local plans.  Sure it might be harder but considering I have no pre-existing conditions and am in great health, I think a 70% saving is worth the hassle.  

 

I'm definitely open to being wrong and please share your opinion to the above.  Below is an online quote from AXA.  I'm interested in the 200k plan on the far right.

[Sheryl]

The problem with locally issued policies as people have tried to tactfully  allude to  is that they have a poor track record for actually paying out on claims and the regulatory environment is weak. Very common to decide only at the point of claim that a condition is excluded on one pretext or another.  Having no prior isurance claim or hospitalization does not prevent this. 

 

In addition Thai insurers can and often will raise rates based on changes in "risk profile" (e.g. having developed a chronic health condition) and your claims history. They are allowed to up premiums by as much as 25% in a single year on top of any inflationary and age related increases. Inno time at all you can find yourself priced out at ab age/state of health where you cannot get a different policy. If you are planning on growing old here this point is critical. 

 

Additional concerns are:

 

- level of cover (what you attach gives too little info to assess..a cap of 4 million baht does not mean they'd cover a given claim up to 4 mill, need to look at limits for the various billing sub-categories)

 

- whether hospitalization policy includes day surgeries, outpatient cancer care and outpatient dialysis.

 

- whether they guarantee lifetime renewal (many Thai insurers cancel policies at a certain age)

 

- what premiums will look like at later ages (Thai insurers, if they will insure past age 65 at all, tend to raise premiuns in older ages  much more steeply  than international companies). Again, especially important if you plan on growing old here.). 

 

Have you checked what your premium would be with maximum (300k+)  deductible in your urrent policy? 

[atpeace]

20 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The problem with locally issued policies as people have tried to tactfully  allude to  is that they have a poor track record for actually paying out on claims and the regulatory environment is weak. Very common to decide only at the point of claim that a condition is excluded on one pretext or another.  Having no prior isurance claim or hospitalization does not prevent this. 

 

In addition Thai insurers can and often will raise rates based on changes in "risk profile" (e.g. having developed a chronic health condition) and your claims history. They are allowed to up premiums by as much as 25% in a single year on top of any inflationary and age related increases. Inno time at all you can find yourself priced out at ab age/state of health where you cannot get a different policy. If you are planning on growing old here this point is critical. 

 

Additional concerns are:

 

- level of cover (what you attach gives too little info to assess..a cap of 4 million baht does not mean they'd cover a given claim up to 4 mill, need to look at limits for the various billing sub-categories)

 

- whether hospitalization policy includes day surgeries, outpatient cancer care and outpatient dialysis.

 

- whether they guarantee lifetime renewal (many Thai insurers cancel policies at a certain age)

 

- what premiums will look like at later ages (Thai insurers, if they will insure past age 65 at all, tend to raise premiuns in older ages  much more steeply  than international companies). Again, especially important if you plan on growing old here.). 

 

Have you checked what your premium would be with maximum (300k+)  deductible in your urrent policy? 

Good points and I did check most the issues you brought up about coverage and liked what I read.  I lack the knowledge to feel confident about my understanding of the policy but that is also the case with the international policies.

 

As for your inquiry about 300,000 deductible on my current international plan with April, it would reduce my rate to 31, 500 from 43,500,  April has increased my premium by 50% over the last 2 years.  You mentioned that Thai insurers have a rep of big premium increases but 50%?  Haven't had any claims with April but have nothing bad to say about them other than I'm a little upset with the 50% premium increase,

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, atpeace said:

I was unaware of this claim but apparently they changed that policy.  Being 56 probably triggered the increase but 33% is outrageous.  They increased it substantially last year also from 28k to 33k.  43k is the new quote with a 165k deductible and no claims. More than a 50% increase in 2 years.  My broker just told me five minutes ago if I increased my deductible to 327k the premium would be 31.5K.  Better but still a shock.

Those are insane numbers. You are better off in Vegas. I despise insurance companies and their actuary nonsense. Most are nothing more than mafia scammers, with a license. 

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

Good points and I did check most the issues you brought up about coverage and liked what I read.  I lack the knowledge to feel confident about my understanding of the policy but that is also the case with the international policies.

 

As for your inquiry about 300,000 deductible on my current international plan with April, it would reduce my rate to 31, 500 from 43,500,  April has increased my premium by 50% over the last 2 years.  You mentioned that Thai insurers have a rep of big premium increases but 50%?  Haven't had any claims with April but have nothing bad to say about them other than I'm a little upset with the 50% premium increase,

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Was the increase 50% or 33%?  title of your thread says 33%.

 

Having turned 56 you likely moved into a new 5 year age bracket. 

 

As mentioned your current policy is also local not international. Only reason I suggest keeping it is that there is an advantage to holding same policy for many years. Increases the odds of smooth claims approval. Insurers look very closely  at claims occurring in first few years of a new policy.  Thai insurers in particular will dig deeply to find any possible indication of a predisposing factor (and draw some pretty far-ferched conclusions at times i  that regard).  Wheras if you have held the policy for many years this is less likely.

 

If you do change policies then I stronhly advise you do so for an internationslly issued one.  Some insurers to look at would be:

 

April International (what you have now is April Thailand). 

 

Cigna Global (not Cigna Thailand)

Thwmey offer both deductible and copay options

 

ACS (they have a plan specific to SEA)

 

However none are likely to be less than the 31k baht you can get on your current policy with deductible. That is already  a quite low cost for health insurance at your age. 

 

I would be very, very suspicious of any policy costing under  30-40k baht a year at your age.  Beware of policies that use a "bait and switch" approach  i.e. an artificially  low initial premium that immediately shoots up at renewal . And of policies that actually cover very little.  Looking at the AXA Thailand policy you have in mind it will cover only up to 8k per day ICU room cost (too low) and only up to 150k general hospital costs  (unclear if per hosputalization or per year but way too low in either case). Also limited to 1 doctor visit per  day while in hospital (common to have more e .g. visits from different specialists). The cancer care benefit is only 100k --  way way too low. Cancer care can snd will easily run into the millions. 

 

While the maximum benefit per disability is listed at 4 million there is almost no way you would actually get reimbursed to anything near that given these sub category limits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[atpeace]

38 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Those are insane numbers. You are better off in Vegas. I despise insurance companies and their actuary nonsense. Most are nothing more than mafia scammers, with a license. 

Think the world is awash with money and everybody the last 18 months is determined to make it worthless.  The amount of money people will throw at homes, cars, stocks with crazy valuations, and dining out is over the top.  Why not increase insurance premiums when so many throw money about as if it worthless paper. Hmm, that was an odd rant...

[Furioso]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

As for your inquiry about 300,000 deductible on my current international plan with April, it would reduce my rate to 31, 500 from 43,500.

 

Honestly I would go with this 31.5K plan, a 12% increase over the 28K.

You're in good shape, probably won't need to use it anytime soon.  

 

[atpeace]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Was the increase 50% or 33%?  title of your thread says 33%.

 

Having turned 56 you likely moved into a new 5 year age bracket. 

 

As mentioned your current polucy is also local not international. Only reason I suggest keeping it is that There is an advantage to holding same policy for many years. Increases the odds of smooth claims approval. Insurers look very closely  at claims occurring in first few years of a new policy.  Thai insurers in particular will dig deeply to find any possible indication of a predisposing factor (and draw sone pretty far-ferched conclusions at tines).  Wheras if you have hrld the policy for many years this is less likely.

 

If you do change policies then I sttonhlt advise you do so for an internationslly issued one.  Some insurers to look at would be:

 

April International (what you have now is April Thailand). 

 

Cigna Global (not Cigna Thailand)

Thwy offer both deductible and copay options

 

ACS (they have a plan specific to SEA)

 

However none are likely to be less than the 31k baht you can get on your current policy with deductible. That is already  a quite low cost for health insurance at your age. 

 

I would be very, very suspicious of any policy costing under  30-40k baht a year at your age.  Beware of policies that use a "bait and switch" approach  i.e. an artificially  low initial premium that immediately shoots up at renewal . And of policies that actually cover very little.  Looking at the AXA Thailand policy you have in mind it will cover only up to 8k per day ICU room cost (too low) and only up to 150k general hospital costs  (unclear if per hosputalization or per year but way too low in either case). Also limited to 1 doctor visit day while in hospital (common to have more e .g. visits from different soecialusts). The cancer care benefit is only 100k --  way way too low. Cancer care can snd will eadily run into the millions. 

 

While the maximum benefit per disability is listed at 4 million there is almost no way you would actually get reimbursed to anything near that given these sub category limits.

 

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

50% as I stated above twice over the last 2 years.  33% this year. 

The international plans also have sub category limitations.  I get what you are saying and it makes sense from a certain perspective.  I think healthy individuals require less insurance than most of the current world's population.  Not being righteous but trying to be honest.  I really don't have much of an issue subsidizing the unhealthy ( many

are unhealthy and they are not at fault) but at the same time would like to benefit from the effort I put into being healthy.   That is why I utilize the high deductible that would be unwise for unhealthy individuals.  

 

Seven years ago I did spend 3 weeks in the ICU in Petchabun and another 2 weeks in a private room.  It was a public hospital because my lungs were too damaged to move me but I paid less than 2k/day for the room and less than 60k for ICU and had around 5 CAT scans as well as a few surgeries.  I had a Thai insurance and they paid 100% of the bill.  

 

You have made some good points and I need to give this some more thought and do some more research.  I can ask my Thai friends about coverage and claims.  Also, you seem to minimize the impact of good health and no pre-existing conditions.  Both are extremely important IMO.  Much harder to deny a legitimate claim but still not impossible.

 

 

 

[atpeace]

5 minutes ago, Furioso said:

Honestly I would go with this 31.5K plan, a 12% increase over the 28K.

You're in good shape, probably won't need to use it anytime soon.  

 

With twice the deductible but still a good point.

[blackshadow]

4 hours ago, atpeace said:

 

LMG

 

they are thai I THINK!!!!!!

[Furioso]

Just now, atpeace said:

With twice the deductible but still a good point.

Yes, don't let them eff you. Pay as little premium as possible right now and save for when it really does get expensive. 

[Sheryl]

15 minutes ago, atpeace said:

 

50% as I stated above twice over the last 2 years.  33% this year. 

The international plans also have sub category limitations.  I get what you are saying and it makes sense from a certain perspective.  I think healthy individuals require less insurance than most of the current world's population.  Not being righteous but trying to be honest.  I really don't have much of an issue subsidizing the unhealthy ( many

are unhealthy and they are not at fault) but at the same time would like to benefit from the effort I put into being healthy.   That is why I utilize the high deductible that would be unwise for unhealthy individuals.  

 

Seven years ago I did spend 3 weeks in the ICU in Petchabun and another 2 weeks in a private room.  It was a public hospital because my lungs were too damaged to move me but I paid less than 2k/day for the room and less than 60k for ICU and had around 5 CAT scans as well as a few surgeries.  I had a Thai insurance and they paid 100% of the bill.  

 

You have made some good points and I need to give this some more thought and do some more research.  I can ask my Thai friends about coverage and claims.  Also, you seem to minimize the impact of good health and no pre-existing conditions.  Both are extremely important IMO.  Much harder to deny a legitimate claim but still not impossible.

 

 

 

What Thai insurers will consider a pre existing condition and what you do are quite differrnt.

 

I have for example seen claims for heart attacks denied based on an isolated outpatient visit related to gastric reflux a decade back, or an isolated borderline high BP reading recorded once at a doctor visit years ago despute  multipke other normal readings .

 

Internationsl insurers are not going to do that sort of thing.  But even they are not going to view your health status the way you do. An ICU admission with lung damage 7 years ago would likely lead to some exclusions on a new policy.

 

That you are healthy now does not mean you will always remain so and your healthy habits are no guarantee.

 

I was in perfect health at your age too. Did not stop a motorcycle from slamming into me at high speed a few years later (2 weeks in hospital, 2 surgeries, cost a little under 1 million baht all told).  Didn't stop age related changes to my spine from eventually compressing nerves requiring spinal surgery a decade later.  And while right now I seem perfectly healthy and have great habits I could have a heart attack or stroke or develop any number of cancers at any time. Indeed the older I get, the more likely it is that one of those things will happen sooner or later.

 

 

[atpeace]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

What Thai insurers will consider a pre existing condition and what you do are quite differrnt.

 

I have for example seen claims for heart attacks denied based on an isolated outpatient visit related to gastric reflux a decade back, or an isolated borderline high BP reading recorded once at a doctor visit years ago despute  multipke other normal readings .

 

Internationsl insurers are not going to do that sort of thing.  But even they are not going to view your health status the way you do. An ICU admission with lung damage 7 years ago would likely lead to some exclusions on a new policy.

 

That you are healthy now does not mean you will always remain so and your healthy habits are no guarantee.

 

I was in perfect health at your age too. Did not stop a motorcycle from slamming into me at high speed a few years later (2 weeks in hospital, 2 surgeries, cost a little under 1 million baht all told).  Didn't stop age related changes to my spine from eventually compressing nerves requiring spinal surgery a decade later.  And while right now I seem perfectly healthy and have great habits I could have a heart attack or stroke or develop any number of cancers at any time. Indeed the older I get, the more likely it is that one of those things will happen sooner or later.

 

 

Yes and the same goes for international insurance but probably not as often.  We have all read the stories of international policies denying claims.  As for the pre-existing conditions you described used to deny claims, it doesn't apply if you don't have any pre-existing conditions.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.  

 

You are correct about not knowing the future but fate in part is a product of who we are today.  Being healthy today reduces your odds dramatically of major medical issues compared to being not healthy.  We seem to be coming at this insurance discussion from different perspectives but I  respect your opinion.

[atpeace]

23 minutes ago, blackshadow said:

they are thai I THINK!!!!!!

I think you are correct.  This can get confusing.   The plan covers me in Asia and Europe and that is why I stated April International.  Also my Insurance docs are from "April International".