Joe Biden lands in UK to meet Sunak amid concern over Ukraine cluster bombs

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US President Joe Biden has landed in the UK ahead of a Nato summit in Lithuania later this week - which comes after several allies questioned his call to send cluster bombs to Ukraine.

The UK and Canada are among those who voiced concern about supplying the bombs, which are widely banned because of the danger they pose to civilians.

The US says they are needed because Ukraine's weapon stocks are dwindling.

The presidential plane touched down at Stansted Airport on Sunday evening.

On Monday, Mr Biden will meet his British counterpart Rishi Sunak to discuss various issues, including the war in Ukraine.

Mr Sunak has not directly criticised his US counterpart following Friday's cluster bomb announcement - but on Saturday he said that the UK was one of 123 countries signed up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions, an international treaty which bans the production or use of the weapons.

 

Other US allies have gone further, however. Nato partner nation New Zealand said on Sunday the munitions could cause "huge damage to innocent people".

 

FULL STORY

 

[sirineou]

Cluster munitions are illegal under international law But  Neither Russia, Ukraine, nor the United States are signatories or state parties to the convention. But both the UK and Germany are,

   But aside the legal and moral implication, sending cluster weapons to the Ukraine I am sure will be met with equal and perhaps a greater response by Russia, that will be destructive for both countries.  

Aside from claims of Ukrainian successes and Putin's imminent demise

Things must be getting desperate for the US proxy war in the Ukraine. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by sirineou

[Kwasaki]

Heard allegedly that Russia and Ukraine have been using cluster weapons already so what's all the fuss about.

[Tug]

Hopefully it will help level the playing field on account of Ukraine not having much AirPower 

[billd766]

I read of much condemnation in the MSM from some western countries about the USA supplying cluster weapons to the Ukraine.

 

What I have not read is the equal or more condemnation from the same western countries about Russia using cluster weapons themselves, and have been doing for a while now.

 

 

IMHO the USA is supplying cluster weapons, mainly because they have run out of stock of 'normal' shells and they cannot instantly ramp up production of those shells to replenish their own stocks.

 

When their own stocks are replenished, 'normal' service (whatever that is) will be resumed.

[nauseus]

Most western countries have signed a ban on the movement of cluster munitions. They merely want to keep that in place, despite what Russia and Ukraine have been doing, or want to do. 

 

https://www.dw.com/en/russia-uses-cluster-bombs-extensively-in-ukraine-report-says/a-62927491

[billd766]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Most western countries have signed a ban on the movement of cluster munitions. They merely want to keep that in place, despite what Russia and Ukraine have been doing, or want to do. 

 

https://www.dw.com/en/russia-uses-cluster-bombs-extensively-in-ukraine-report-says/a-62927491

Thank you for the link.

[earlinclaifornia]

I support any effort to end the killing. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/put-pressure-on-putin-while-he-s-down/ar-AA1dCQxQ?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=u531&cvid=c1699adc6ac740e480367fc7f7e08cdd&ei=62#:~:text=Follow-,Put pressure on Putin while he’s down,-Opinion by Seth

[PETERTHEEATER]

Sure, the International agreement was to ban 'cluster bombs' but it's OK to supply 'area denial munitions' ????

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, sirineou said:

Cluster munitions are illegal under international law But  Neither Russia, Ukraine, nor the United States are signatories or state parties to the convention. But both the UK and Germany are,

   But aside the legal and moral implication, sending cluster weapons to the Ukraine I am sure will be met with equal and perhaps a greater response by Russia, that will be destructive for both countries.  

Aside from claims of Ukrainian successes and Putin's imminent demise

Things must be getting desperate for the US proxy war in the Ukraine. 

On the subject of getting desperation.

 

How desperate are you to claim that a  war started by Russia against Ukraine is a ‘U.S. Proxy War’?

 

 

[sirineou]

9 hours ago, sirineou said:

Cluster munitions are illegal under international law But  Neither Russia, Ukraine, nor the United States are signatories or state parties to the convention. But both the UK and Germany are,

   But aside the legal and moral implication, sending cluster weapons to the Ukraine I am sure will be met with equal and perhaps a greater response by Russia, that will be destructive for both countries.  

Aside from claims of Ukrainian successes and Putin's imminent demise

Things must be getting desperate for the US proxy war in the Ukraine. 

I noticed someone reacting to the above post with a "Laugh emoji" What is wrong with such person? There is nothing funny about cluster bombs, which is why they are illegal in most of the civilized world. Aside from the obvious problems associated with such weapons, not all unexposed duds remain in the ground for decades after the conflict killing children and other people.

'"The unexploded bombs, known as duds, can remain embedded in the ground for years, posing a serious danger to civilians, most notably children. "

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/7/us-to-give-ukraine-widely-banned-cluster-munitions-despite-fears#:~:text=Each cluster bomb can contain,to civilians%2C most notably children.

[Slip]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I noticed someone reacting to the above post with a "Laugh emoji" What is wrong with such person? There is nothing funny about cluster bombs, which is why they are illegal in most of the civilized world. Aside from the obvious problems associated with such weapons, not all unexposed duds remain in the ground for decades after the conflict killing children and other people.

'"The unexploded bombs, known as duds, can remain embedded in the ground for years, posing a serious danger to civilians, most notably children. "

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/7/us-to-give-ukraine-widely-banned-cluster-munitions-despite-fears#:~:text=Each cluster bomb can contain,to civilians%2C most notably children.

I didn't post the reaction, so I can't claim to know but I imagine it was at you managing to shoe-horn in this gem:

 

Quote

Things must be getting desperate for the US proxy war in the Ukraine. 

Of general note Ukraine has put in place guidelines for the use of these weapons that include 'not in civilian areas', 'all usage documented', and 'priority clearing of usage areas' when the invaders are driven out.

[sirineou]

22 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

On the subject of getting desperation.

 

How desperate are you to claim that a  war started by Russia against Ukraine is a ‘U.S. Proxy War’?

 

 

I don't know Mr Higgot , why don't you tell me? 

   If you are really interested to know about and you are not just trying to start an argument with me, just for the sake of argument, watch the video below and then tell me what you disagree with. And I promise I will give all consideration to your objections.

Just keep in mind that the this speech Is given by a world renowned and respected academician, and in rooms full of experts in the subject, and at end the Q&A  not one could raise any viable objections. 

Also keep in mind everyone in the audience is at least a  postdoc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qciVozNtCDM&t=39s

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by sirineou

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I don't know Mr Higgot , why don't you tell me? 

   If you are really interested to know about and you are not just trying to start an argument with me, just for the sake of argument, watch the video below and then tell me what you disagree with. And I promise I will give all consideration to your objections.

Just keep in mind that the this speech Is given by a world renowned and respected academician, and in rooms full of experts in the subject and at the Q&A at the end not one could raise any viable objections. 

Also keep in mind everyone in the audience is at least a  postdoc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qciVozNtCDM&t=39s

 

Seemingly all unable to explain how the US started this ‘proxy war’ by getting Russia to invade Ukraine.
 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I don't know Mr Higgot , why don't you tell me? 

   If you are really interested to know about and you are not just trying to start an argument with me, just for the sake of argument, watch the video below and then tell me what you disagree with. And I promise I will give all consideration to your objections.

Just keep in mind that the this speech Is given by a world renowned and respected academician, and in rooms full of experts in the subject, and at end the Q&A  not one could raise any viable objections. 

Also keep in mind everyone in the audience is at least a  postdoc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qciVozNtCDM&t=39s

 

Not keen on Putin apologists who miss out all the relevant facts.

 

Vladimir Putin’s apologists spread dangerous message

The standard-bearer of the pro-Putin realists is John Mearsheimer, a professor at the University of Chicago, who has made a career out of reducing the complexity of global politics to the aggression of self-interested powers. In the process, he studiously ignores their internal politics. One obvious advantage of this approach is that it considerably reduces the amount of research and knowledge that is required to dispense authoritative judgments about the conduct of any particular country.

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/vladimir-putins-apologists-spread-dangerous-message-20150129-130snb.html

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

I read of much condemnation in the MSM from some western countries about the USA supplying cluster weapons to the Ukraine.

 

What I have not read is the equal or more condemnation from the same western countries about Russia using cluster weapons themselves, and have been doing for a while now.

 

 

IMHO the USA is supplying cluster weapons, mainly because they have run out of stock of 'normal' shells and they cannot instantly ramp up production of those shells to replenish their own stocks.

 

When their own stocks are replenished, 'normal' service (whatever that is) will be resumed.

Not just the cluster munitions that Russia has been using but also the phosphorus bombs

 

 

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I don't know Mr Higgot , why don't you tell me? 

   If you are really interested to know about and you are not just trying to start an argument with me, just for the sake of argument, watch the video below and then tell me what you disagree with. And I promise I will give all consideration to your objections.

Just keep in mind that the this speech Is given by a world renowned and respected academician, and in rooms full of experts in the subject, and at end the Q&A  not one could raise any viable objections. 

Also keep in mind everyone in the audience is at least a  postdoc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qciVozNtCDM&t=39s

 

I've seen this man before, talking on the same subject. If you look at the comments below the VDO you can see that the level of this 'world renown' and respect is not as high as you seem to think. Some of Mearsheimer's reasoning for Russia's stance may be fair but I think that her brutal actions have voided any chance of any understanding or forgiveness.

 

The link below is to an article, also published by the EUI, which directly concerns that talk in the VDO. It highlights that which Mearsheimer does not say and pretty much disagrees with him completely.

 

https://euideas.eui.eu/2022/07/11/john-mearsheimers-lecture-on-ukraine-why-he-is-wrong-and-what-are-the-consequences/

 

 

[steven100]

This appears to be a catch 22 if I ever heard one .....      

 

So does Biden want the war to just continue on and on ..... and is the US just going to keep sending arms forever ?

 

his statement is really perplexing .......   if Urkaine joined Nato then it's likely with Nato's support the Russians would retreat.    imo ......  thus ending the war.

 

source: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-biden-nato-war-ends/32495731.html

[Kwasaki]

7 minutes ago, steven100 said:

.   if Urkaine joined Nato then it's likely with Nato's support the Russians would retreat.    imo ......  thus ending the war.

A country can't join NATO until all it's borders are established.

 

The war will continue IMHO until hopefully Putin is replaced by Russian people who want peace and get

Mc Donald's and KFC back.

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, steven100 said:

This appears to be a catch 22 if I ever heard one .....      

 

So does Biden want the war to just continue on and on ..... and is the US just going to keep sending arms forever ?

 

his statement is really perplexing .......   if Urkaine joined Nato then it's likely with Nato's support the Russians would retreat.    imo ......  thus ending the war.

 

source: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-biden-nato-war-ends/32495731.html

He does a lot of 'perplexing' stuff.

[steven100]

send them the clusters, send them fighter jets,  send them long range missiles, send them what ever you can so they can annihilate Russia and end the war ......   then let them proceed to join NATO since you won't allow them to join now.   It seems it's ok for Russia to use clusters,  murder kids,  missile humanitarian aid centres,  shot old folk in the head,   but anything a bit decisive about Ukraine gets scrutinized .....     that's not a level playing field in my book.    

[GroveHillWanderer]

12 hours ago, sirineou said:

Cluster munitions are illegal under international law But  Neither Russia, Ukraine, nor the United States are signatories or state parties to the convention. But both the UK and Germany are,

   But aside the legal and moral implication, sending cluster weapons to the Ukraine I am sure will be met with equal and perhaps a greater response by Russia, that will be destructive for both countries.  

Aside from claims of Ukrainian successes and Putin's imminent demise

Things must be getting desperate for the US proxy war in the Ukraine. 

While I don't approve of the use of cluster munitions, they are not actually "illegal under international law" as such - and not in the way that Ukraine intends to use them (on military targets only).

 

As the article linked to below states:

 

Quote

Using the munitions to attack enemy troops or vehicles is not illegal under international law, but striking civilians with the weapons could amount to a war crime, according to Human Rights Watch.

What are the cluster munitions the US is supplying Ukraine with and why are they so controversial?

Edited July 10, 2023 by GroveHillWanderer

[sirineou]

21 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

While I don't approve of the use of cluster munitions, they are not actually "illegal under international law" as such - and not in the way that Ukraine intends to use them (on military targets only).

There are 195 countries in the world, more than 120 countries – including most NATO members – have signed on to a convention prohibiting their use. There is a very good reason for that. 

The fact is that they can not be used only on military targets. A percentage of clusters in the cluster bomb turns out to be duds , and not explode upon contact , and remain buried some times for decades for children to find them. Or for someone plowing a field.  

. 

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, Tug said:

Why on earth would any sane nation want to invade Russia?

I don't know. Ask Napoleon, Hitler,

[RichardColeman]

Charlie can thank him for blessing his mother recently.

 

Funny, green old Joe wants to save the planet, whilst blowing it up !

 

 

[Tropposurfer]

Cluster bombs are bad sh!t.

 

They're wrong doing this, really wrong. Perhaps (and I aint' no world conflict savant) if the West had not trickle fed the Ukraine as they have with weapons to date they wouldn't need such sh!t cruel (to civilians after conflict) weapons in the first place. The grind of set piece trench, artillery led warfare won't get it done for Ukraine. 

[onthedarkside]

Off topic post and replies reported/removed

[GroveHillWanderer]

13 hours ago, sirineou said:

There are 195 countries in the world, more than 120 countries – including most NATO members – have signed on to a convention prohibiting their use. There is a very good reason for that. 

The fact is that they can not be used only on military targets. A percentage of clusters in the cluster bomb turns out to be duds , and not explode upon contact , and remain buried some times for decades for children to find them. Or for someone plowing a field. 

That's very probably all true and as I said, I'm against their use. However none of that changes the fact that they are not as you stated, "illegal under international law."

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

That's very probably all true and as I said, I'm against their use. However none of that changes the fact that they are not as you stated, "illegal under international law."

Semantics 

There is no  international  policemen. that will inforce worlds legislation regardless of what a few  countries in the world might think. 

For instance, In your country there is a law against bank robbery, I am sure the bank robbers don't  agree with such law, but non the less they are bound by it. In the world stage no such binding legal system exists, Sure we have the UN, and the world court, but that's for the small countries large powers can ignore both with impunity. 

So where does that leave us? It is by convention illegal in 120 countries out of 195 and  as such it can reasonably considered an international convention. 

In addition the US it's self admitted that they are banned (if you like that word better) and called Russia alleged use a war  crime. 

See first 30 seconds of the video below, 

So if we  are to take the US at their word, they are now also involved in the commision of a war crime. 

 

[heybruce]

It has been accepted since the end of World War II that if one side uses an illegal tactic or weapon during war that the other side can respond in kind.  Germany's bombing of civilian targets in England legitimized the allied bombing of civilian targets in Germany.  It's ugly but that's how war is.

 

Russia gave the green light for Ukraine to use cluster bombs when Russia used cluster bombs on Ukraine, frequently against civilian targets.  The US held off on providing them as long as possible but it now appears that a shortage of artillery shells is holding up the Ukrainian offensive.  At least Ukraine will use these bombs on legitimate military targets.

 

Unexploded ordnance does present a threat to civilians, but the threat from the US supplied cluster bombs will be minuscule compared to the threat from the Russian cluster bombs and the mines Russia has scattered over vast areas of Ukraine.

 

It's ugly, but to beat Russia you have to fight almost as nasty as Russia.