Ugly Bangkok

[chanchao]

Thanks, good responses.. Of course paint costs money, we paid I think 75K for our house inside and out, though using cheaper paint and cheaper labour the neighbours insist it can be done for 25K as well; wouldn't last as long perhaps, but may work out more economical because labour is affordable.

For a shophouse with a lot less surface, and when keeping in mind that pollution will mess things up anyway, I'd dare say that you wouldn't spend more than 25K per 5 years or so. And most places look like they haven't seen paint in more like 20 years.. Yet the businesses make good money, and people put all kinds of irrelevant crap on their cars & trucks that costs a whole lot more.

As a lot of property owners are Chinese or at least Chinese-influenced culturally AND display some tidbits that reveal an interest in Feng Shui, it remains rather strange that above all Feng Shui recommends to keep a clean, tidy and un-cluttered appearance, as indeed common (business) sense would suggest; suppose you see two Thai car work shops next to each other. One looking like a tidy well organized and clean looking place and the other like a Thai car work shop. ( ) which one would you choose before letting their fingers all over your car..

Edited July 12, 2007 by chanchao

[Heng]

Like anywhere else... there are all kinds. We're Thai Chinese but don't even recognize/celebrate the half dozen sun-moon-sea goddess, etc festivals, don't really follow Buddhism or any other major religion, much less feng shui. And as mentioned, some properties we paint and repaint, some properties we don't.

It's like the kid who owns two Matchbox cars and shines them everyday.... but wonders why the guy who owns a hundred Matchbox cars doesn't do the same for his (or 'why don't you just hire 50 guys to shine them, Richie Rich?'). Sometimes it's quite a task just to keep the best ones maintained and generally keeping them all in working order.

[cdnvic]

Had a Thai explain the lack of repainting to me once:

First time good. Protect the concrete. Second time just for show off.

[Mid]

as expected the concept of civic pride has fallen on deaf ears ...................................

[cdnvic]

as expected the concept of civic pride has fallen on deaf ears ...................................

I don't think that language is spoken much in Thailand.

[Mid]

I don't think that language is spoken much in Thailand.

there are exceptions , predominantly in Isaan .....................................

[sukanyacondo]

My first comment upon arrival to Thailand was, "why don't they paint anything?" My hosts had no idea what I was talking about because they had been here so long it looked normal to them. They may think paint is expensive but it is about 4 times more expensive in Canada and most people seem to be able to keep there property tidy and well kept up. Lack of paint generally signals abandonment or total lack of personal and civic pride. Most people keep up their places so they don't look like they are down on their luck.

I guess in Thailand it is not about the property, it's about the car. I know my neighbor's 6 month old car must be nearly scrubbed down to the base coat by the continual soapy rubdowns it gets week after week. But then people here will spend more on a car than they will on a house. Different priorities I guess.

Heng, unless you guys are living in sprawling mansions, you are getting seriously ripped off on the paint bill. 250 – 500 liters ought to do a big house, bought in bulk that should be between 10 -20,000 baht, times by three max 60,000. Labour: Five men, five days for each house, 1000 baht per man/day, only 75,000 baht.

I think they're too dim to realise if they took care of their houses and environment people would want to live in their neighbourhood and prices would increase for once. But hang on this is Thailand!!!!!!

There is no real value added if you do not sell - and most Thai will never sell.

Seem to be plenty for sale in Bkk and most are go d da mn awful when you go and see them. Thai marketing skills appear to be zero in this respect. Strange how their cars are getting all the shiny wheels and big exhausts tho??? oh but hang on cars go up in value dont they???

Thais almost faint when I tell them my Uk house has risen in value by 300% in 10 years and that real estate usually increases in value in the west and is not like a car. Maybe if they understood the importance of maintenance they might see this more. Even inside many i see are in need of a lot of maintenance.

All this aside do they not mind filthy living conditions? grubby walls etc etc

[sukanyacondo]

My first comment upon arrival to Thailand was, "why don't they paint anything?" My hosts had no idea what I was talking about because they had been here so long it looked normal to them. They may think paint is expensive but it is about 4 times more expensive in Canada and most people seem to be able to keep there property tidy and well kept up. Lack of paint generally signals abandonment or total lack of personal and civic pride. Most people keep up their places so they don't look like they are down on their luck.

I guess in Thailand it is not about the property, it's about the car. I know my neighbor's 6 month old car must be nearly scrubbed down to the base coat by the continual soapy rubdowns it gets week after week. But then people here will spend more on a car than they will on a house. Different priorities I guess.

Heng, unless you guys are living in sprawling mansions, you are getting seriously ripped off on the paint bill. 250 – 500 liters ought to do a big house, bought in bulk that should be between 10 -20,000 baht, times by three max 60,000. Labour: Five men, five days for each house, 1000 baht per man/day, only 75,000 baht.

I think they're too dim to realise if they took care of their houses and environment people would want to live in their neighbourhood and prices would increase for once. But hang on this is Thailand!!!!!!

There is no real value added if you do not sell - and most Thai will never sell.

When I go down a road if all the houses are well kept and well painted I want to live there. Then again Im not Thai so that might expalin it.

[sukanyacondo]

Had a Thai explain the lack of repainting to me once:

First time good. Protect the concrete. Second time just for show off.

Ah will explain the shiny wheels, big exhausts on the cars then. But does it increase the value?

[lazeeboy]

Had a Thai explain the lack of repainting to me once:

First time good. Protect the concrete. Second time just for show off.

Ah will explain the shiny wheels, big exhausts on the cars then. But does it increase the value?

i paint my house every year ,not all downstairs where to dogs lie ,maybe round the pool,anywhere it looks grubby .my thai family dont understand why i waste money on paint ,the house next door to me never paint his house ,has bare rendering turning brown ,he think im an idiot for wasting money

[Heng]

I think it's a pretty big assumption to assume that the folks that own all the shiny tricked out cars are the property owners, Sukanya.

Now if they invented a paint that could weather the Southeast Asia 'rain and bake' for more than 3-4 years at a time, I'd certainly paint all my properties permanently, otherwise it's better (IMO) to leave values to their inevitable upward climb due to that absolute market condition: that the locals are steadily using up all the space.

As for XXX% appreciation... how would you calculate the appreciation on properties that were purchased for say 50,000 Baht a rai but now lease out for 50,000 Baht a month for just 200 square meters of that in 15 years (and that's not even thinking about the sales price; the invariable response to those discussions being: "that's not the real selling price unless you sell it"... the "logic" being that "you can never know a price until it's sold", nevermind that properties just a few hundred meters to the left and right are now moving in excess of a 800-900k a rai)?

[marshbags]

I remember when sky train first started and making similar observations from above ground level.

It was an education and one i described as the exposing of the slums in the sky while posting my pleasure of the intial experience above street level

What filth and dilapidation came into view from so many properties.

I haven,t been on it in recent times but i often wonder if things got tidied up now it was there for all to see.

I might add that this was a minor blip on an otherwise positive experience and i recommended to everyone to try it out.

There is of course personal pride along with wanting to present a clean enviroment at stake, but for some reason it does not appear to be of much importance to the majority, sadly.

The most important reason / incentive to paint ect. is for maintenance and in turn the safety of the structures which fall into disrepair and distruction due to the lack of ect.

marshbags

[LomSak27]

Deju Vu - I had this same conversation with an older american women in Khatmandu, say 22 years ago. She had worked in Thailand for three years and it just never did sit right with her, thais not keeping up or painting their homes let alone shops. She had a real obsession with this non painting. At least back then you could blame it on costs and relative poverty of the chao ban. Good to see others share her concerns

I've assumed it was just the general sense of economics in Thailand. You put as little money into something as possible.

My pet peeve is a nice shop, cafe, hotel, whatever, but they do not spend the little itsy bitsy amount of money/time needed for upkeep, repairs etc. and it gradually turns into a dump. Ok, gradual can become sudden after years of neglect. Then after it is a pit they tear it down and start all over again. I'm positive it would be cheaper in the long run to pay for the monthly/yearly cost of maintaining it, than building it all over agin but ...

[sukanyacondo]

I think it's a pretty big assumption to assume that the folks that own all the shiny tricked out cars are the property owners, Sukanya.

Now if they invented a paint that could weather the Southeast Asia 'rain and bake' for more than 3-4 years at a time, I'd certainly paint all my properties permanently, otherwise it's better (IMO) to leave values to their inevitable upward climb due to that absolute market condition: that the locals are steadily using up all the space.

As for XXX% appreciation... how would you calculate the appreciation on properties that were purchased for say 50,000 Baht a rai but now lease out for 50,000 Baht a month for just 200 square meters of that in 15 years (and that's not even thinking about the sales price; the invariable response to those discussions being: "that's not the real selling price unless you sell it"... the "logic" being that "you can never know a price until it's sold", nevermind that properties just a few hundred meters to the left and right are now moving in excess of a 800-900k a rai)?

Sorry i wasnt clear, I meant they would rather spend their money on keeping the car looking good than the house. I know which one Id rather live in for 20 odd years and it aint got 4 wheels he he he

[sukanyacondo]

I think it's a pretty big assumption to assume that the folks that own all the shiny tricked out cars are the property owners, Sukanya.

Now if they invented a paint that could weather the Southeast Asia 'rain and bake' for more than 3-4 years at a time, I'd certainly paint all my properties permanently, otherwise it's better (IMO) to leave values to their inevitable upward climb due to that absolute market condition: that the locals are steadily using up all the space.

As for XXX% appreciation... how would you calculate the appreciation on properties that were purchased for say 50,000 Baht a rai but now lease out for 50,000 Baht a month for just 200 square meters of that in 15 years (and that's not even thinking about the sales price; the invariable response to those discussions being: "that's not the real selling price unless you sell it"... the "logic" being that "you can never know a price until it's sold", nevermind that properties just a few hundred meters to the left and right are now moving in excess of a 800-900k a rai)?

Sorry i wasnt clear, I meant they would rather spend their money on keeping the car looking good than the house. I know which one Id rather live in for 20 odd years and it aint got 4 wheels he he he

[sukanyacondo]

Had a Thai explain the lack of repainting to me once:

First time good. Protect the concrete. Second time just for show off.

Ah will explain the shiny wheels, big exhausts on the cars then. But does it increase the value?

i paint my house every year ,not all downstairs where to dogs lie ,maybe round the pool,anywhere it looks grubby .my thai family dont understand why i waste money on paint ,the house next door to me never paint his house ,has bare rendering turning brown ,he think im an idiot for wasting money

Maybe one day the penny will drop, and when or if he sells and sees that you sold previously for a much higher price because you're house was smart and clean etc.

In our condos they put notices in the lifts printed by the developer explaining to the owners not to hang washing outside of the building, not to throw rubbish off their balconies, not to have any dogs or cats, not to have the tv up loud. Its hilarious for me because i am sure many Thais do not understand why. They also tell you "why" in the posters, ie washing out looks a mess, throwing rubbish off your balcony it may hit someone below dogs smel and make a noise/mess.

Almsoy childlike explanations for me but obviously necessary to some of the Thais.

Take care of the building people will want to actively live there. neglect it and it will get demolished.

[sukanyacondo]

I think it's a pretty big assumption to assume that the folks that own all the shiny tricked out cars are the property owners, Sukanya.

Now if they invented a paint that could weather the Southeast Asia 'rain and bake' for more than 3-4 years at a time, I'd certainly paint all my properties permanently, otherwise it's better (IMO) to leave values to their inevitable upward climb due to that absolute market condition: that the locals are steadily using up all the space.

As for XXX% appreciation... how would you calculate the appreciation on properties that were purchased for say 50,000 Baht a rai but now lease out for 50,000 Baht a month for just 200 square meters of that in 15 years (and that's not even thinking about the sales price; the invariable response to those discussions being: "that's not the real selling price unless you sell it"... the "logic" being that "you can never know a price until it's sold", nevermind that properties just a few hundred meters to the left and right are now moving in excess of a 800-900k a rai)?

yes property prices would increase anyway same as my uk house bought as a repossesion and if I had done nothing could have sold it for about £140000. I paid £42000 in 1997 sold in 2005 for £190000 beacsue it was clean and well presented. It was on the market for 1 day. No i wasnt lucky others had been on the market up my road for months at a similar price but in my opinion overpriced. I had a lot of interest in just 1 day. People knew the house well ,had seen i had taken pride in it over the years as they were often visiting the local shops next to me . Some people even knocked on my door well before I sold asking me if I would sell. Civic pride hear hear.

[Petesear]

One might ask why bother to paint the outside of a house if you are not putting it on the market, when the cost of doing so could buy new alloys for the Merc. Better to do tommorrow what should be done today. Is this not a reason a lot of us like living here? Relax, there's no need to keep up with those next door. If you want to paint, paint.

[tijnebijn]

One might ask why bother to paint the outside of a house if you are not putting it on the market, when the cost of doing so could buy new alloys for the Merc. Better to do tommorrow what should be done today. Is this not a reason a lot of us like living here? Relax, there's no need to keep up with those next door. If you want to paint, paint.

Thats right I agree with how you like it at a different corner , why care ?

[sukanyacondo]

One might ask why bother to paint the outside of a house if you are not putting it on the market, when the cost of doing so could buy new alloys for the Merc. Better to do tommorrow what should be done today. Is this not a reason a lot of us like living here? Relax, there's no need to keep up with those next door. If you want to paint, paint.

Because it will deteriorate more and cost more to do eventually. "A little and often"

If theres no need to keep up with next door why buy the new wheels for the car??? The old ones presumably work?? same principle as not painting the house surely?

[Heng]

Not all properties are worth maintaining. When you play Monopoly, you don't take care of (or develop) all your properties equally. It's not like running an airline where you might go out of business if you don't maintain your planes well. If you pull capital from maintaining/developing properties with better potential to just keep the facade of a low potential property on the up and up, it's not an effective use of resources.

[sukanyacondo]

Not all properties are worth maintaining. When you play Monopoly, you don't take care of (or develop) all your properties equally. It's not like running an airline where you might go out of business if you don't maintain your planes well. If you pull capital from maintaining/developing properties with better potential to just keep the facade of a low potential property on the up and up, it's not an effective use of resources.

yes but I am referring to a Thais own personal residence that they own not an investment portfolio of houses. Painting is just a basic minimum you can have a house without hot water a shower a cooker but the walls inside and out could be clean.

[Richb2004v2]

I used to wonder how they ever manage to sell an older property when they are so black and messy. I came to the conclusion that the system probably works because the Thai buying the house does not care about decay and mess either. If they are all happy living in crap then there is no problem.

To me Thailand seems like one huge derelict English council estate. They seem to have the same standards as those poor, uneducated, messy people that will customize their cars but live in complete mess on those council estates.

I made the mistake of buying on a brand new estate with only a few sparkling houses. We were one of the first to build. Slowly the estate has been completed and filled with Thais. Now most of those early properties have begun to decay. One or two are now completely black. This is in less than 4 years. They only paint them when they decide to rent them out. I wonder how long it will be before our estate is the same as the one next door, which I avoided buying on, and paid more thinking I was buying onto a better area.

[Heng]

Not all properties are worth maintaining. When you play Monopoly, you don't take care of (or develop) all your properties equally. It's not like running an airline where you might go out of business if you don't maintain your planes well. If you pull capital from maintaining/developing properties with better potential to just keep the facade of a low potential property on the up and up, it's not an effective use of resources.

yes but I am referring to a Thais own personal residence that they own not an investment portfolio of houses. Painting is just a basic minimum you can have a house without hot water a shower a cooker but the walls inside and out could be clean.

Yeah, for folks with just one mortaged home, a financed car, I think it's an issue of poor money management. A lot of folks out there probably have payments to think about that take precedence over maintainence. IMO by and large, most folks in the "80%" in a lot of countries, Thailand included, aren't ready for ownership.

[Mid]

IMO by and large, most folks in the "80%" in a lot of countries, Thailand included, aren't ready for ownership.

drop the clangers don't you ?

[Heng]

Huh?

[Mid]

if your really unsure what I mean I'll drop you a PM ,

think along the lines of all men being equal , apparently an alien concept to you .

[Heng]

Feel free to PM me, Mid.

Not all men (or paint for that matter) are equal. And that's true whether we're talking about being created equal, and even less equal when we're talking about what people accomplish in their own lifetimes and over several generations if we're talking about generations of humans.

Edited July 14, 2007 by Heng

[sukanyacondo]

I used to wonder how they ever manage to sell an older property when they are so black and messy. I came to the conclusion that the system probably works because the Thai buying the house does not care about decay and mess either. If they are all happy living in crap then there is no problem.

To me Thailand seems like one huge derelict English council estate. They seem to have the same standards as those poor, uneducated, messy people that will customize their cars but live in complete mess on those council estates.

I made the mistake of buying on a brand new estate with only a few sparkling houses. We were one of the first to build. Slowly the estate has been completed and filled with Thais. Now most of those early properties have begun to decay. One or two are now completely black. This is in less than 4 years. They only paint them when they decide to rent them out. I wonder how long it will be before our estate is the same as the one next door, which I avoided buying on, and paid more thinking I was buying onto a better area.

Probably not long!! This is my biggest worry when buying here that what I buy will look like a third world slum very quickly where nothing gets re paired or it gets bodged.

Behind Seacon Square next to Suan luang park is a very expensive area with some beautiful houses all well kept, only problem land is 80 million for a few Rai!!

[sukanyacondo]

Forgot to mention as the prices of "secondhand" properties fall so the "less desirables" move in.

Always amazes me Thais want new and shiny houses and then let them go downhill??????