Man who threatened Biden shot dead in FBI raid in Utah

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Just now, EVENKEEL said:

I wasn't aware of your new status or job title on here. Extremely humorous of you, thanks for the laff.

In other words, you've got nothing.

[heybruce]

I find it amazing that so many people are criticizing the FBI for shooting a man who pointed a gun at them and ignored orders to drop it while they were properly executing a legal warrant.

 

If this had happened to a BLM protester who had posted threats online and shown pictures of his rifles I suspect their attitude would be significantly different.

[Hanaguma]

16 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I find it amazing that so many people are criticizing the FBI for shooting a man who pointed a gun at them and ignored orders to drop it while they were properly executing a legal warrant.

 

If this had happened to a BLM protester who had posted threats online and shown pictures of his rifles I suspect their attitude would be significantly different.

Nobody is disputing that the man needed to be investigated for his actions. What IS in question is the method the FBI used to execute the warrant, and their behavior when they did.

 

We have a suspect who is known to be elderly and largely immobile. What are the odds he can wake up and answer his door at 615 in the morning before the FBI kicks it in? Seems the purpose of the timing is to deliberately put him in a position of stress and fear, rather than to serve him a warrant.  This shows a disturbing trend towards impatience and violence in policing in America these days. As I said before, he was not an immediate threat to anyone. Why not wait until he goes outside to get his newspaper or check his mailbox? 

 

Next, why drag his body outside and leave it on the sidewalk for two hours? 

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Just now, Hanaguma said:

Nobody is disputing that the man needed to be investigated for his actions. What IS in question is the method the FBI used to execute the warrant, and their behavior when they did.

 

We have a suspect who is known to be elderly and largely immobile. What are the odds he can wake up and answer his door at 615 in the morning before the FBI kicks it in? Seems the purpose of the timing is to deliberately put him in a position of stress and fear, rather than to serve him a warrant.  This shows a disturbing trend towards impatience and violence in policing in America these days. As I said before, he was not an immediate threat to anyone. Why not wait until he goes outside to get his newspaper or check his mailbox? 

 

Next, why drag his body outside and leave it on the sidewalk for two hours? 

"Largely immobile?" I've read reports from neighbors that he often volunteered to give neighbors rides to church meetings. He had a walking stick. He wasn't confined to a wheelchair, was he?

As for the rest, do you know how long the FBI waited for him to answer the door? Do you know how he responded? What, if anything he said?  You got some evidence to share with us? Or are you just indulging in your penchant for fictionalizing?

[Hanaguma]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

"Largely immobile?" I've read reports from neighbors that he often volunteered to give neighbors rides to church meetings. He had a walking stick. He wasn't confined to a wheelchair, was he?

As for the rest, do you know how long the FBI waited for him to answer the door? Do you know how he responded? What, if anything he said?  You got some evidence to share with us? Or are you just indulging in your penchant for fictionalizing?

No more fictionalizing than those who say that he was waving a gun at the agents who kicked down his door. I would be happy to be wrong about this- assuming the FBI were wearing body cameras it could be cleared up in a jiffy. 

 

Any recent photos of Robertson show him sitting or leaning against something. A 75 year old 300 pound man is largely immobile.

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2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

No more fictionalizing than those who say that he was waving a gun at the agents who kicked down his door. I would be happy to be wrong about this- assuming the FBI were wearing body cameras it could be cleared up in a jiffy. 

 

Any recent photos of Robertson show him sitting or leaning against something. A 75 year old 300 pound man is largely immobile.

If you mean he spent most of his time sitting or leaning against something. But if you mean he wasn't capable of walking or holding a rifle, not really. As I pointed out, he volunteered to take neighbors to church. He wasn't housebound.

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

No more fictionalizing than those who say that he was waving a gun at the agents who kicked down his door. I would be happy to be wrong about this- assuming the FBI were wearing body cameras it could be cleared up in a jiffy. 

 

Any recent photos of Robertson show him sitting or leaning against something. A 75 year old 300 pound man is largely immobile.

Hardly fiction:

 

Authorities said he pointed his weapon at agents and did not respond to their commands.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/utah-man-killed-fbi-pointed-gun-agents-fatal-shooting-rcna99326

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

The guy was a nutter but he was in his house and the FBI were invading... remember WACO

What happened to obeying police orders? George Floyd was obese as well and that's all we heard from the right wing at that time.

 

[heybruce]

33 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nobody is disputing that the man needed to be investigated for his actions. What IS in question is the method the FBI used to execute the warrant, and their behavior when they did.

 

We have a suspect who is known to be elderly and largely immobile. What are the odds he can wake up and answer his door at 615 in the morning before the FBI kicks it in? Seems the purpose of the timing is to deliberately put him in a position of stress and fear, rather than to serve him a warrant.  This shows a disturbing trend towards impatience and violence in policing in America these days. As I said before, he was not an immediate threat to anyone. Why not wait until he goes outside to get his newspaper or check his mailbox? 

 

Next, why drag his body outside and leave it on the sidewalk for two hours? 

You are playing a "what if" game with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. 

 

I'm sure the FBI followed whatever procedures are used in these instances.  If they had done something different and got the same results or worse I'm sure you'd be playing the same game of "well why didn't they do something different?".

[ozimoron]

It seems like the far right want to put this guy on a pedestal because he threatened to shoot Biden.

[EVENKEEL]

I have zero doubts of FBI's version, but hey we all like video footage.

[Hanaguma]

31 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You are playing a "what if" game with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. 

 

I'm sure the FBI followed whatever procedures are used in these instances.  If they had done something different and got the same results or worse I'm sure you'd be playing the same game of "well why didn't they do something different?".

Not at all. Just wondering what motivated them to conduct a search warrant in a manner that virtually guaranteed a violent outcome. On an elderly suspect with no criminal record or history of violence. When there was no immediate danger or threat to anyone that necessitated such haste. 

 

The whatever procedures may be part of the problem and not the solution.  But I would be happy to be proven wrong once the details are released.

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Just now, Hanaguma said:

Not at all. Just wondering what motivated them to conduct a search warrant in a manner that virtually guaranteed a violent outcome. On an elderly suspect with no criminal record or history of violence. When there was no immediate danger or threat to anyone that necessitated such haste. 

 

The whatever procedures may be part of the problem and not the solution.  But I would be happy to be proven wrong once the details are released.

"Virtually guaranteed?" Do most similar FBI raids result in a shootout?

[Rimmer]

A Post contravening our Community Standards has been removed.                                                            

[Hanaguma]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It seems like the far right want to put this guy on a pedestal because he threatened to shoot Biden.

Absolutely not. He was making threats and needed to be investigated. Should happen to anyone doing the same thing- not a partisan issue at all.

 

The sticking point to me is how the investigation was done and why these particular methods/timing were used. 

[johnnybangkok]

9 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

The FBI chooses to raid his house at 615am. A time when he is probably asleep and will be startled by the sudden noise and commotion. Why? Obviously to provoke a response that will let them play Robocop. 

 

Seems like a way overzealous police response, sadly something that is all too common in the US these days.

Your post asserts 'The FBI chooses to raid his house at 615am. A time when he is probably asleep and will be startled by the sudden noise and commotion. Why? Obviously to provoke a response that will let them play Robocop.'  This is wildly disingenuous. Why would the FBI want to basically execute a US citizen (which is what you are trying to infer here) with all the subsequent publicity and investigations that they will face?

This dangerous nonsense that the FBI are now some sort of death squad for the Dems is the kind of BS that is causing these situations in the first place; a self-confessed Maga zealot threatens the sitting POTUS (several times) and when confronted by the FBI with a legitimate warrant, he is so threatened by the FBI, he thinks it's a good idea to brandish a weapon rather than surrender and have his day in court. These are extreme consequences for his extreme actions but I don't necessarily blame him. 

At a recent rally, Trump said “The FBI and the justice department have become vicious monsters, controlled by radical-left scoundrels, lawyers and the media, who tell them what to do.” This massively inflammatory rhetoric is why you are seeing situations like this in the first place and I'll wager it won't be the last.

But I doubt if any of you guys will admit Trump is responsible for fanning any of these flames. For some bizarre reason he is blameless in all of this. Funny that eh? 

 

[bendejo]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It seems like the far right want to put this guy on a pedestal because he threatened to shoot Biden.

Contrast that with the guy who put together that tiki-torch rally in Charlottesville in 2017.  We was full of rhetoric about shedding blood etc but when they showed up at his house the following week to take him in he cried and was all "I didn't mean any of that stuff!" etc.  The right is looking for more courageous examples.

Keep an eye out for the part about the crazy old geezer pointing his gun at the agents, that part is disappearing from right-wing media as we speak.

He will become the innocent victim, just as is the leader of his movement having his First Amendment rights etc , , ,

 

[pomchop]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

The FBI had strong grounds to believe that Robertson would violently resist arrest. What has this got to do with Hunter Biden? Did the FBI have strong grounds to believe that Hunter Biden would violently resist arrest? Or even resist arrest at all?

Hunter biden seems to be the only word that right wingers can come up with regardless of the topic...and of course now the law and order bunch thinks that the FBI should just play patty cakes with a guy who has threatened assisanations over and over has a house full of guns and allegedly pointed a gun at FBI agents....all the idiot had to do was comply to the lawful order of the FBI and just say one moment officers i am unarmed and i am opening the door......but he wanted to be some kind of tough guy and got himself killed for the glory of MAGA....and it is somehow either the FBI or Hunter Bidens fault that he got killed...before he could unleash his threatened death on others.

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, pomchop said:

Hunter biden seems to be the only word that right wingers can come up with regardless of the topic...and of course now the law and order bunch thinks that the FBI should just play patty cakes with a guy who has threatened assisanations over and over has a house full of guns and allegedly pointed a gun at FBI agents....all the idiot had to do was comply to the lawful order of the FBI and just say one moment officers i am unarmed and i am opening the door......but he wanted to be some kind of tough guy and got himself killed for the glory of MAGA....and it is somehow either the FBI or Hunter Bidens fault that he got killed...before he could unleash his threatened death on others.

How do you know he didn't comply?

American law enforcement often kill unarmed civilians, then claim they were threatened. (same for Brit law enforcement)

 

Have they released a complete video of the incident?

What they say after the event just can't be trusted.

Edited August 12, 2023 by BritManToo

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49 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

How do you know he didn't comply?

American law enforcement often kill unarmed civilians, then claim they were threatened. (same for Brit law enforcement)

 

Have they released a complete video of the incident?

What they say after the event just can't be trusted.

You're the party who endorsed defending oneself with weapons when lawfully served a warrant by law enforcement authorities.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

N tot at all. Just wondering what motivated them to conduct a search warrant in a manner that virtually guaranteed a violent outcome. On an elderly suspect with no criminal record or history of violence. When there was no immediate danger or threat to anyone that necessitated such haste. 

 

The whatever procedures may be part of the problem and not the solution.  But I would be happy to be proven wrong once the details are released.

Ignoring, for now, the fact that the FBI has more experience than you or I in executing a warrant on a heavily armed loner in a remote location who has made repeated threats against the President and all who questioned this...

 

How do you thing the FBI should have dealt with this situation?

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Ignoring, for now, the fact that the FBI has more experience than you or I in executing a warrant on a heavily armed loner in a remote location who has made repeated threats against the President and all who questioned this...

 

How do you thing the FBI should have dealt with this situation?

I think they should have waited patiently outside in the road after disconnecting his utils & blocking his cell. No need to break into his home, but obviously easier for them to hide what happens if it's inside. The armed nutters always defend their homes, much more peaceful to get them to come out voluntarily.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by BritManToo

[billd766]

6 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

The guy was a nutter but he was in his house and the FBI were invading... remember WACO

The FBI were NOT invading. They were there to serve a warrant, they announced who they were and why they were there.

 

He refused to open the door, so they broke it to serve the warrant. He met them holding a gun.

 

They must have been told that he had threatened to assassinate the President and several federal officials and that he had many weapons in his house.

 

I suppose that you would have gone there unarmed, knocked politely, and left the warrant in his mailbox.

 

What would you have done, if, as you left he shot in the back and killed one or more of your colleagues. 

 

Tell him that he was a naughty man, and that he deserved a slap on the wrist?

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35 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I think they should have waited patiently outside in the road after disconnecting his utils & blocking his cell. No need to break into his home, but obviously easier for them to hide what happens if it's inside. The armed nutters always defend their homes, much more peaceful to get them to come out voluntarily.

 

The issue you raised might be a fair point. But what about his neighbors? They would have to be evacuated for an indefinite length of time.

Edited August 12, 2023 by placeholder

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Are you advocating shooting all individuals who are capable of pulling a trigger? Oh dear.... 

 I am not.

 

I’m pointing out the absurdity of the argument made in the post I was responding to.

 

Don’t point guns at law enforcement officers seems to be the best advice.

Doing so risks deadly consequences.

 

[NextG]

52 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I think they should have waited patiently outside in the road after disconnecting his utils & blocking his cell. No need to break into his home, but obviously easier for them to hide what happens if it's inside. The armed nutters always defend their homes, much more peaceful to get them to come out voluntarily.

 

What if a survivalist and had a bunker specifically designed to wait out for months? How long should they wait outside? A month? Two months?

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12395171/Family-Utah-man-Craig-Robertson-killed-FBI-release-statement-following-death.html

 

Does he look like a ‘harmless old guy’ to you?

 

 

[NextG]

 

That’s actually him dressed up. Harmless old man?

[ozimoron]

7 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Are you advocating shooting all individuals who are capable of pulling a trigger? Oh dear.... 

It's standard operating procedure to shoot dead any person who points a gun at police, particularly an AR-15 or similar assault rifle and especially after making threats to kill police.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

The guy was a nutter but he was in his house and the FBI were invading... remember WACO

The FBI seem to have taken the risk of an armed response from the subject of their lawfully warranted search seriously.

 

They might not have had WACO in mind but I suspect the possibility of dangerous wacko was a consideration.

 

[ozimoron]

Is there some evidence that this man was incapable of carrying his gun out to a car and driving somewhere? That's the argument being put by his apologists.