Electric car fire: Week-old million baht vehicle ignites in Udon Thani mall

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 9/6/2023 at 7:21 AM, JBChiangRai said:

I think more data is needed, that article came from data published in Italy, that data in turn came from carnewschina

 

I am suspicious when the reported fires go from 86 in 3 years (2020-2022) ie 29/year then in 2023 we jump to 2555 based on Q1 figures extrapolated.  It doesn't sound right.

Another reason to distrust those figures is that according to the Australian website EV FireSafe, which says it gets its information from various sources, including sourced & verified online sources, interviews, first hand accounts, videos, images, academic & fire agency reports, there were only around 120 EV fires in the entire world in the whole of 2022. So the figure of 640 EV fires in China in only the first quarter of 2022 once again, seems highly suspect.

 

EV fires - overview

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by GroveHillWanderer

[BKKBike09]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Not going to trawl through 12 pages of witless speculation and solar power codswallop but if anyone else has, have they confirmed that it was an issue with either the vehicle's charger interface, or the charger, or operator error and naff all to do with the EV's battery itself?

 

Asking for a (nervous BYD owner) friend.

Your 'friend' might still be nervous even after being learning that it was 'only' "a damaged wire connecting to the 12v battery" that caused the incident.

 

What BYD need to explain is how a wire on a brand-new vehicle came to be "damaged" / what exactly "damaged" means, such that it could generate enough heat to melt a hole in part of the aircon system. 

 

Commenting as a (more curious than nervous) BYD Atto owner.

 

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:19 AM, ExpatOilWorker said:

For once I 100% agree with you. Data from China is at best murky,  but this time the data are suspicious. But, why?

Why would a battery site report fake numbers?

If you come across a better and more reliable source,  please share.

China is interesting, being a testbed for EVs and having a very fragmented, they will almost certainly also experiencing the most failures. 

Well, looking at the article it seems pretty clear that there's a typographical error involved. Either the figure of 640 fires in Q1 2022 alone, or the figure of it being a 32% increase from the previous year, is simply a typo. And I think I know which one it is more likely to be.

 

And as for a more reliable source, I think the EV FireSafe site I posted just above, is probably more reliable than an article with obvious mathematical and/or typographical errors.

[VocalNeal]

Oh dear I think the cat is out of the bag.

 

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/bangkok-governor-orders-checks-of-warehouses-storing-electric-car-batteries/

[JBChiangRai]

13 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Oh dear I think the cat is out of the bag.

 

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/bangkok-governor-orders-checks-of-warehouses-storing-electric-car-batteries/

More than likely to be lead-acid batteries.

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Oh dear I think the cat is out of the bag.

 

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/bangkok-governor-orders-checks-of-warehouses-storing-electric-car-batteries/

No indication whatsoever in the report, of what caused the fire.

 

Also, something doesn't sound quite right about this. Why would a showroom selling EV's be storing electric car main battery modules? EV batteries are built in to the underside of the vehicle and a showroom would have no reason (and probably no capability) to remove and store the batteries separate from the vehicle.

 

As far as I'm aware, and unless someone can inform me differently, only an EV manufacturer, authorised EV repair shop, battery swapping station or battery recycling facility would have stores of EV main battery packs.

[NanLaew]

On 9/7/2023 at 12:26 PM, BKKBike09 said:

Your 'friend' might still be nervous even after being learning that it was 'only' "a damaged wire connecting to the 12v battery" that caused the incident.

 

What BYD need to explain is how a wire on a brand-new vehicle came to be "damaged" / what exactly "damaged" means, such that it could generate enough heat to melt a hole in part of the aircon system. 

 

Commenting as a (more curious than nervous) BYD Atto owner.

 

 

It's not the voltage that's the issue, it's the current. A loose connection on a high-amperage device gets hot. That happens on ICE vehicles too.

 

A lot.

 

Enjoy your Atto

[BKKBike09]

16 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

It's not the voltage that's the issue, it's the current. A loose connection on a high-amperage device gets hot. That happens on ICE vehicles too.

 

A lot.

 

Enjoy your Atto

True (amps vs volts) but not relevant to BYD's statement on the cause as being: “After thorough investigation, our engineers have found damage to a wire connecting to the 12-volt battery”.

 

AFAIK they haven't said anything yet as to how a wire on a brand-new vehicle came to be "damaged" / what exactly "damaged" means, such that it could generate enough heat to melt a hole in part of the aircon system (which led to the white smoke).

[Isaan sailor]

I read that the recent hurricane in Florida took out several EVs.  This begs the question, what happens to an EV in a heavy rainstorm, or in a flash flood?  Granted you’d have major electrical damage in your internal combustion vehicle in flash floods.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

I read that the recent hurricane in Florida took out several EVs.  This begs the question, what happens to an EV in a heavy rainstorm, or in a flash flood?  Granted you’d have major electrical damage in your internal combustion vehicle in flash floods.

I have driven an EV (foolishly, I might add) through a flash flood, they are mostly ok for short periods.

 

Salt water is more risky I would say.

[Isaan sailor]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I have driven an EV (foolishly, I might add) through a flash flood, they are mostly ok for short periods.

 

Salt water is more risky I would say.

You got that right.  We often park our vehicle very near the Gulf.  We cover it to keep the salty air from corroding the electrical system.  Will undercoat next new vehicle too.

[NanLaew]

10 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

True (amps vs volts) but not relevant to BYD's statement on the cause as being: “After thorough investigation, our engineers have found damage to a wire connecting to the 12-volt battery”.

 

AFAIK they haven't said anything yet as to how a wire on a brand-new vehicle came to be "damaged" / what exactly "damaged" means, such that it could generate enough heat to melt a hole in part of the aircon system (which led to the white smoke).

I have experience with damaged cables. I had one on a ship where the wires inside a power cable were "damaged" when they were compressed in a clamp and through heat and vibration, caused the insulation to eventually break down, causing an arc that failed to trip a circuit breaker so the short-circuit stalled the generator that threw a rod through the crankcase that spewed hot oil onto the hotter compressor exhaust that caught fire with the flames eventually melting the fuel filter bowls on the main engines and igniting that source. That was a fun-filled 20 minutes putting that one out.

 

Of course this was all before EV's were invented and it did take Transport Australia five years to work that one out, so here's hoping the damaged wire/high-current/high heat incident on the Udon Thani Atto will be explained sooner than later.

[nauseus]

On 9/4/2023 at 1:11 PM, josephbloggs said:

I think it's pretty normal for the original manufacturer to investigate something of this nature.

Yes but they might be busy! 

[radiochaser]

On 9/4/2023 at 3:03 AM, Shop mak said:

 

If you still around 30 years from now, when many or most countries have no more fossil fuel vehicles, How Will You Get Around?

 

On 9/4/2023 at 3:40 AM, bignok said:

Nonsense. Enough to last more than 60 years.

I remember predictions, from the past, of the world running out of fossil fuels in 10 or 20 years from the time the predictions were made.   

 

I think that 10 years have passed from the time fossil fuels were predicted to be depleted.   

Edited September 8, 2023 by radiochaser

[GroveHillWanderer]

21 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

I read that the recent hurricane in Florida took out several EVs.  This begs the question, what happens to an EV in a heavy rainstorm, or in a flash flood?  Granted you’d have major electrical damage in your internal combustion vehicle in flash floods.

There's a couple of interesting videos on YouTube of vehicles trying to drive through a flooded ford on a road in Rufford, Nottinghamshire. One shows a bunch of ICE vehicles that attempt it, and most (apart from some high chassis four-wheel drive type vehicles) experience engine failure as their engines get flooded. Some stop in the water itself, some make it through but then conk out just on the other side. 

 

Then there's a compilation of Teslas attempting the same thing and every single one of them gets through without engine problems and is able to drive away down the road on the other side.

[BenStark]

EV batteries pose no fire risk, move on, nothing to see here,

 

Take note, the articles below are about new vehicles.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/3rd-nikola-battery-electric-truck-183628944.html

 

3rd Nikola battery-electric truck catches fire

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nikola-semi-truck-catches-fire-202958194.html

 

Nikola semi-truck catches fire in second incident in a week

Edited September 9, 2023 by BenStark

[GroveHillWanderer]

3 minutes ago, BenStark said:

EV batteries pose no fire risk, move on, nothing to see here,

 

Take note, the articles below are about new vehicles.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/3rd-nikola-battery-electric-truck-183628944.html

 

3rd Nikola battery-electric truck catches fire

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nikola-semi-truck-catches-fire-202958194.html

 

Nikola semi-truck catches fire in second incident in a week

All vehicles pose a fire risk - including EV's. However the facts show that EV's pose a much lower risk of fire than ICE vehicles.

[fondue zoo]

 

[Isaan sailor]

28 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

There's a couple of interesting videos on YouTube of vehicles trying to drive through a flooded ford on a road in Rufford, Nottinghamshire. One shows a bunch of ICE vehicles that attempt it, and most (apart from some high chassis four-wheel drive type vehicles) experience engine failure as their engines get flooded. Some stop in the water itself, some make it through but then conk out just on the other side. 

 

Then there's a compilation of Teslas attempting the same thing and every single one of them gets through without engine problems and is able to drive away down the road on the other side.

Very enlightening, thank you.  For now, I’ll stick to driving my Hi-Rider Ranger, and gently ford those flash floods.

[BKKBike09]

Meanwhile, back on topic ... 

 

Will be interesting to learn just how (according to BYD) a wire leading to the 12V battery was "damaged" in such a way that it became a heat source. The battery in the BYD Atto is a typical small car battery (12v / c 35A). But unlike a typical modern ICE small car, it's not squeezed in to some tiny space next to a hot engine block. 

 

There's bags of space around the Atto battery and under the hood in general, so the wiring to/from battery is very easy to see/access.

 

I'm not sure why the battery comes wrapped in a nylon or whatever insulator blanket: maybe a legacy from cars destined for markets with cold winters. If it's taken off it does mean the negative terminal is exposed bare metal unless it's covered with a suitable insulator.

 

 

 

 

[NanLaew]

23 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

Meanwhile, back on topic ... 

 

Will be interesting to learn just how (according to BYD) a wire leading to the 12V battery was "damaged" in such a way that it became a heat source. The battery in the BYD Atto is a typical small car battery (12v / c 35A). But unlike a typical modern ICE small car, it's not squeezed in to some tiny space next to a hot engine block. 

 

There's bags of space around the Atto battery and under the hood in general, so the wiring to/from battery is very easy to see/access.

 

I'm not sure why the battery comes wrapped in a nylon or whatever insulator blanket: maybe a legacy from cars destined for markets with cold winters. If it's taken off it does mean the negative terminal is exposed bare metal unless it's covered with a suitable insulator.

 

 

As I suggested in my earlier nautical tale, damaged conductors can offer resistance to normal current flow causing heat, insulation breakdown, flashover or, if in the vicinity of something with a low tolerance to heat such as air conditioning pipework insulation, start combustion by radiated heat. Did you know that the principle of a "hot wire" is the basis of the old fashioned filament light bulb?

 

12 V DC @ a nominal 35 A load through a poorly made or "damaged" connection or wire will overheat. The BYD cable could have been "damaged" when it was assembled by the third-party auto parts manufacturer who makes them or it could have been "damaged" on the assembly line. It's unlikely that it was "damaged" by the owner, unless he thought the bonnet (hood) was a small boot (trunk) and stashed something in there previously. Mrs NL used to transport chooks to the market in the back of her CR-V.

 

The "blanket" on your Atto blanket is not there to keep the battery warm in winter. It's a thermal sleeve that insulates the battery from external heat sources. High heat cycles can shorten the life of a car battery and if the air flow in the engine bay is deemed insufficient to regulate this exposure to heat, the manufacturers install the thermal sleeve. I have one on my Ranger (as does most everyone else who has a Ranger). I had one of those 24/7 emergency battery replacement chaps who didn't put it back after replacing the battery as it was too much effort. Rather than show him the error of his slothful ways, I waited until he had left and refitted it myself.

Edited September 10, 2023 by NanLaew

[owl sees all]

3 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

As I suggested in my earlier nautical tale, damaged conductors can offer resistance to normal current flow causing heat, insulation breakdown, flashover or, if in the vicinity of something with a low tolerance to heat such as air conditioning pipework insulation, start combustion by radiated heat. Did you know that the principle of a "hot wire" is the basis of the old fashioned filament light bulb?

 

12 V DC @ a nominal 35 A load through a poorly made or "damaged" connection or wire will overheat. The BYD cable could have been "damaged" when it was assembled by the third-party auto parts manufacturer who makes them or it could have been "damaged" on the assembly line. It's unlikely that it was "damaged" by the owner, unless he thought the bonnet (hood) was a small boot (trunk) and stashed something in there previously. Mrs NL used to transport chooks to the market in the back of her CR-V.

 

The "blanket" on your Atto blanket is not there to keep the battery warm in winter. It's a thermal sleeve that insulates the battery from external heat sources. High heat cycles can shorten the life of a car battery and if the air flow in the engine bay is deemed insufficient to regulate this exposure to heat, the manufacturers install the thermal sleeve. I have one on my Ranger (as does most everyone else who has a Ranger). I had one of those 24/7 emergency battery replacement chaps who didn't put it back after replacing the battery as it was too much effort. Rather than show him the error of his slothful ways, I waited until he had left and refitted it myself.

What is the best way to put out one of these fires. I don't think water. Is there a chemical that will do the trick? Buckets of sand?!

 

In the future, perhaps all EVs will have a built-in extinguisher?!

[ExpatOilWorker]

23 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

Meanwhile, back on topic ... 

 

Will be interesting to learn just how (according to BYD) a wire leading to the 12V battery was "damaged" in such a way that it became a heat source. The battery in the BYD Atto is a typical small car battery (12v / c 35A). But unlike a typical modern ICE small car, it's not squeezed in to some tiny space next to a hot engine block. 

 

There's bags of space around the Atto battery and under the hood in general, so the wiring to/from battery is very easy to see/access.

 

I'm not sure why the battery comes wrapped in a nylon or whatever insulator blanket: maybe a legacy from cars destined for markets with cold winters. If it's taken off it does mean the negative terminal is exposed bare metal unless it's covered with a suitable insulator.

 

 

 

 

Why does a fully electric vehicle even have a 12 V lead battery?

[Jelli]

THIS is the future of EVs.

 

 

Nuclear power now more than ever.

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Why does a fully electric vehicle even have a 12 V lead battery?

For safety & historical reasons.  It keeps high voltages out the cabin, and historically, radios, lights, fan & windscreen wiper motors are all 12v

[GroveHillWanderer]

7 hours ago, owl sees all said:

What is the best way to put out one of these fires. I don't think water. Is there a chemical that will do the trick? Buckets of sand?!

 

In the future, perhaps all EVs will have a built-in extinguisher?!

EV's only - or all vehicles with a 12V lead-acid battery?

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 minute ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

EV's only - or all vehicles with a 12V lead-acid battery?

Remove the tax subsidies and you can put the entire EV out of its misery ???? ???? ???? ???? ????. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

3 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Remove the tax subsidies and you can put the entire EV out of its misery ???? ???? ???? ???? ????. 

You can put a vehicle out of its misery?

[ExpatOilWorker]

4 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

You can put a vehicle out of its misery?

I meant to type EV industry.

I think I need new ????. 

[Isaan sailor]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:58 AM, GroveHillWanderer said:

All vehicles pose a fire risk - including EV's. However the facts show that EV's pose a much lower risk of fire than ICE vehicles.

The recent EV fires due to the hurricane in Florida now show the cause as salt water or salt water spray.  So perhaps EV’s have an Achilles' Heel…