Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[mokwit]

26 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Exactly - and the same for me - in Aust the annual taxation and reporting period is July 1 to 30 June.

None of the financial or superannuation companies provide annual reports Jan to Dec.

This sort of mismatch will be our problem not theirs. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

20 hours ago, redwood1 said:

And what have I learned after 71 pages?......Not much lol...........

 

Except that a person international income, pension and tax situation is not the same as anyone elses money situation......Very Complicated, throw in tax treaties and it gets more complex for people here to figure out...

 

Its all such a complex mess the Thais will zero chance of making this work..

Yes mate - that is so true.

BUT if Expats are required/forced to lodge a tax return every year (for whatever reason), we will all be running the risk of being 'nailed' by Thai RD.  Unlike the Immigration IOs, Thai RD offiocers do not want the correct paperwork bla bla bla, the Thai RD want your money - and if you dont pay you can get arrested, fined, sent to jail and then deported.  The worst thing (if you are legal) Immigration can do to you (happened to a mate) is that you have to leave the country, apply for a new Visa and then come back and start again (if approved).  If the Thai RD processes are totally screwed up and inconsitent, and you/I get caught in their net, it is highly probable that we will be screwed over - I cant see them saying 'sowwy - we wong'. 

 

I see this as like the decision to wear a helmet when riding a bike.  Immigration is like riding the bike slowly down to to the local 7-11 on the corner.  RD is like riding the bike fast around a race track - the negative consequences if something goes wrong are much more extreme.  I will be wearing a helmet (avoiding the RD) even if I ride the bike to the the neighbour's house. 

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, homeseeker said:

So this means that "Pension/retirement income(see TaxTreatises)" will continue to be treated in the same way  as before for those on retirement visas.....right(?)

From the AMCHAM post above:

 

- Any transfers into the country will need to be declared. To avoid double taxation, you will need to file taxes in Thailand yearly and claim exemption.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Thailand/comments/16zh3k4/amcham_meeting_on_taxation_of_foreign/

 

However for Social Security et al under Article 20 US-Thailand DTA, not sure why you need to 'avoid' double taxation as those items can only be taxed in the country of origin whether taxed there or not.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Aldo123]

With thanks to Lorry for the comprehensive translation and thoughts on this, I'm still unclear on whether this will relate to 'declaring global income' to Thailand, and paying tax on all of that, or just declaring foreign remittances to Thailand.

 

If it's the latter, US citizens aside, for most expats here who are non-resident in their home countries, they may or may not pay much/any tax there, depending upon what the income relates to. So if they have foreign savings and foreign credit cards linked to those accounts, and they keep their basic income source going into their home countries banks (pension, whatever), then they could bring in only the bare minimum of remittance of cash needed from UKP, Euro, AUS, CAD, etc.,

 

By that I mean only remit enough foreign cash to Thailand to pay rent and spending money for self/family and use foreign credit cards to pay for groceries, insurance, restaurants, gas/petrol, etc. If kept to only 80 or 85,000 Baht per month, the tax rate would be 20% on that.   

 

Sorry if I missed this in the 70+ pages, but I have been reading most...

[zombie nights]

18 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

From the AMCHAM post above:

 

- Any transfers into the country will need to be declared. To avoid double taxation, you will need to file taxes in Thailand yearly and claim exemption.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Thailand/comments/16zh3k4/amcham_meeting_on_taxation_of_foreign/

 

However for Social Security et al under Article 20 US-Thailand DTA, not sure why you need to 'avoid' double taxation as those items can only be taxed in the country of origin whether taxed there or not.

 

So all retirees here in Thailand who stay 180 days in 1 year now need to file tax returns?!?

Please identity precisely the new law or practice which states this?

No need to say retirees are tax residents we know that but up until now no obligation to file tax returns and nothing in the new rule say that is going to  change for retirees.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by zombie nights

[jerrymahoney]

3 minutes ago, zombie nights said:

So all retirees here in Thailand who stay 180 days in 1 year now need to file tax returns?!?

Please identity precisely where it says this applicable to such retirees.

 

That is just a quote from the AMCHAM report posted above.

 

But at least to me, it seems contradictory say you need to file to 'avoid double taxation' since there is no way you could be double-taxed on social security as in Par. 2 Article 20:

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 minutes ago, Aldo123 said:

With thanks to Lorry for the comprehensive translation and thoughts on this, I'm still unclear on whether this will relate to 'declaring global income' to Thailand, and paying tax on all of that, or just declaring foreign remittances to Thailand.

 

If it's the latter, US citizens aside, for most expats here who are non-resident in their home countries, they may or may not pay much/any tax there, depending upon what the income relates to. So if they have foreign savings and foreign credit cards linked to those accounts, and they keep their basic income source going into their home countries banks (pension, whatever), then they could bring in only the bare minimum of remittance of cash needed from UKP, Euro, AUS, CAD, etc.,

 

By that I mean only remit enough foreign cash to Thailand to pay rent and spending money for self/family and use foreign credit cards to pay for groceries, insurance, restaurants, gas/petrol, etc. If kept to only 80 or 85,000 Baht per month, the tax rate would be 20% on that.   

 

Sorry if I missed this in the 70+ pages, but I have been reading most...

Good points BUT you are being reasonable and logical. There is no guarantee that the Thai RD will also be the same. For those of us that plan to spend about 1 million baht a year (every year) this is huge. Even though we have no tax liability to Thailand (other than VAT) because all the money is from our savings from previous years of working (plus a small pension).   I am not willing to lodge a tax return based on 1 million baht remittances and APPLY for tax credits to offset whatever taxes Thailand will try to apply.  What will happen if that 'application' is rejected for whatever reasons by the Thai RD.  Am I going to pay 50-100K+ for a Thai lawyer to lodge an appeal  - no way - I will just leave.

 

The fact is that a LOT of Expats in a similar situation to me are also planning to leave - which country, where and when.  I am planning while I wait to see what happens. If the Thai RD starts nailing Expats, or I receive a latter from Thai RD about my deposits into Thailand, that is the trigger.  The wife has agreed already - Malaysia or The Philippines - or we might just go back to Australia earlier than planned (a lot earlier).  I would much rather stay here for 10-15 years and spent at least 10-15 million baht in Thailand - but I refuse to pay taxes to a Government that treats me like a tourist and demands 90 day reporting, TM30s, Annual payment/begging to stay, permission to leave and re-enter, double poricing, etc etc etc. 

 

Rant over ????

 

  

[mokwit]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I refuse to pay taxes to a Government that treats me like a tourist and demands 90 day reporting, TM30s, Annual payment/begging to stay, permission to leave and re-enter, double poricing, etc etc etc. 

They treat us more like like criminals than tourists now - certainly not paying customers of Thailand.

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If Somchai in the local RD Office has a problem with that he is welcome to put forward in writing the reasons for me not lodging a tax return over the previous X years. The immediate result of receiving such a letter from the Thai RD signed by Somchai, will be myself and Thai Wife packing and leaving Thailand permanently. 

Likely some unfortunates will be processed before us and we should get some feedback on the process and at what point things are done - e.g. after what/when do they flag us in the Imm system for no exit. Leave ahead of that. I have problems paying taxes so that billionaires can use other peoples tax money to buy votes.

[Andycoops]

I am not holding my breath like TiT officials utter these things and very little ever comes of them.

And if it were to pass the amount of actual tax would be minimal if you go by the current tax threshold as published.

[JimGant]

Americans have no dog in this fight, since all our worldwide income is already taxed. The only new wrinkle might be, according to the DTA, Thailand has "first taxation rights" on certain income, like private pensions and IRA payouts. But my other US income -- Air Force retirement and Social Security -- is exempt from Thai taxation, per tax treaty. So, maybe I'll have to file a Thai tax return, declaring my IRA income, and paying Thai taxes on this. But, per DTA, I'll just take this as a tax credit on my US tax return, and come out zero sum tax obligation. Anyway, Thailand gets the tax revenue they deserve, per treaty -- and the US pays for it via credit.

 

Actually, I won't mind paying Thailand the taxes that the treaty says are theirs. Surprised they haven't reached this point earlier. Sharper minds in the Thai tax department these days....? Maybe -- but obviously several sharp edges still needing to be filed down.

 

For those non-Yanks screaming about no more free ride from somebody's taxes? Welcome aboard.

 

 

[scorecard]

6 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Americans have no dog in this fight, since all our worldwide income is already taxed. The only new wrinkle might be, according to the DTA, Thailand has "first taxation rights" on certain income, like private pensions and IRA payouts. But my other US income -- Air Force retirement and Social Security -- is exempt from Thai taxation, per tax treaty. So, maybe I'll have to file a Thai tax return, declaring my IRA income, and paying Thai taxes on this. But, per DTA, I'll just take this as a tax credit on my US tax return, and come out zero sum tax obligation. Anyway, Thailand gets the tax revenue they deserve, per treaty -- and the US pays for it via credit.

 

Actually, I won't mind paying Thailand the taxes that the treaty says are theirs. Surprised they haven't reached this point earlier. Sharper minds in the Thai tax department these days....? Maybe -- but obviously several sharp edges still needing to be filed down.

 

For those non-Yanks screaming about no more free ride from somebody's taxes? Welcome aboard.

 

 

" For those non-Yanks screaming about no more free ride from somebody's taxes? Welcome aboard."

 

?

 

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

but I refuse to pay taxes to a Government that treats me like a tourist and demands 90 day reporting, TM30s, Annual payment/begging to stay, permission to leave and re-enter, double poricing, etc etc etc. 

 

Rant over ????

Adios, and good luck.

[randstr21]

I am a digital nomad. Earning a decent income by freelancing for companies in USA and Canada. With this latest changes of the tax rules, I am almost certain that I will have to file income tax and pay tax to Thailand government.

I am a Elite Visa holder (5 years plan). Weeks ago, I submitted the application to upgrade to 20 years plan before withdrawing the application (After they mentioned that I can still upgrade the plan 3 months before the expiry).

I am NOT paying any income tax to Thai government. So, the Elite visa is not as beneficial to me anymore. As I could only stay in Thailand for less than 6 months of any year if I don't want to pay income tax. And, I will not upgrade the 20 yrs Elite Visa anymore. I would rather spend that 400k baht elsewhere. 

I have started to do research on moving to Malaysia, Vietnam or Philippines. Once my lease term expires in late January, I will move out of Thailand. 

So, I am removing 400k baht + 30-40k monthly (360-480k baht yearly) from Thailand economy. 

[transam]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

They treat us more like like criminals than tourists now - certainly not paying customers of Thailand.

If you choose to live in a third-world country, what do you expect.............????

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is my reason for not lodging a Tax Return in 2025 in Thailand of any subsequent years.  I stopped working in 2014, and officially retired in 2023, when I started to receive the Government Pension. I still do an annual tax return in Australia and any taxes applicable have been already paid in Australia.  

 

If Somchai in the local RD Office has a problem with that he is welcome to put forward in writing the reasons for me not lodging a tax return over the previous X years. The immediate result of receiving such a letter from the Thai RD signed by Somchai, will be myself and Thai Wife packing and leaving Thailand permanently. 

You mentioned receiving the Oz gov't. pension. I assume you mean the Oz Old Age Pension (OAP), which by Oz legislation is exempt from Aust. personal taxation.

 

As is the Oz DVA Service Pension and/or the Oz Permanent Disability Compensation Allowance,  previously called the DVA Disability Pension, all exempt from Oz personal taxation.

 

Receiving any of these payments probably means any other income is quite small (but I quickly add, that's not my business to assume).

 

My Guess (just my guess, nothing more) is that Thailand will not 'classify' any of the above payments as taxable in Thailand regardless of 183 days residency etc. And in any case the total amounts would probably mean that person is under the lower income threshhold. 

[JimGant]

17 minutes ago, scorecard said:

" For those non-Yanks screaming about no more free ride from somebody's taxes? Welcome aboard."

 

?

Only Americans will be paying no more taxes on their worldwide income under this new Thai tax proposal. Thus, all the complaints we're hearing on this thread must be from all those who have been getting a tax holiday by leaving their home country for Thailand -- and now that door is closing.

[SuperSaiyan]

To sum it up: 95% won't be affected. Your pensions or whatever are taxed already in the originating country. For the others: I want to see how a 35 year old guy on his 3rd ED visa gets asked from the Thai gov about paying taxes.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Americans have no dog in this fight, since all our worldwide income is already taxed. The only new wrinkle might be, according to the DTA, Thailand has "first taxation rights" on certain income, like private pensions and IRA payouts. But my other US income -- Air Force retirement and Social Security -- is exempt from Thai taxation, per tax treaty. So, maybe I'll have to file a Thai tax return, declaring my IRA income, and paying Thai taxes on this. But, per DTA, I'll just take this as a tax credit on my US tax return, and come out zero sum tax obligation. Anyway, Thailand gets the tax revenue they deserve, per treaty -- and the US pays for it via credit.

 

Actually, I won't mind paying Thailand the taxes that the treaty says are theirs. Surprised they haven't reached this point earlier. Sharper minds in the Thai tax department these days....? Maybe -- but obviously several sharp edges still needing to be filed down.

 

For those non-Yanks screaming about no more free ride from somebody's taxes? Welcome aboard.

 

 

If you don't have foreign income, then you might have to reattribute US income to foreign source. That involves another form in addtion to IRS form 1116 (foreign tax credit) because you would be invoking provisions of the US-Thai DTA treaty. I used to have enough foreign passive income outside Thailand to avoid this issue, but now I have to figure out where in the US-Thai treaty is the wording that authorises that reattribution. Do you (or anyone) have experience with this issue? This involves US passive income remitted into Thailand.

[stat]

6 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is my reason for not lodging a Tax Return in 2025 in Thailand of any subsequent years.  I stopped working in 2014, and officially retired in 2023, when I started to receive the Government Pension. I still do an annual tax return in Australia and any taxes applicable have been already paid in Australia.  

 

If Somchai in the local RD Office has a problem with that he is welcome to put forward in writing the reasons for me not lodging a tax return over the previous X years. The immediate result of receiving such a letter from the Thai RD signed by Somchai, will be myself and Thai Wife packing and leaving Thailand permanently. 

Maybe you will not be allowed to leave the country right after Somchai discovered that you potentially owe Thailand several Million THB. Easy as chips as you usually leave via an airport or an official border with an IO officer and a computer. The risk is real.

Edited October 6, 2023 by stat

[Antti]

I guess from now on better to adopt the attitude of Robert DeNiro's character in the movie Heat: "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."

 

If you don't have Thai citizenship (which practically no farang has) or immovable property in Thailand, there is very little they can do when you fly out and never return. 

 

The new PM Srettha is a real estate guy, I don't think this is good for his business interests. I think farangs will eventually be excluded someway, similar to the Philippines.

 

 

 

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

What will happen if that 'application' is rejected for whatever reasons by the Thai RD.  Am I going to pay 50-100K+ for a Thai lawyer to lodge an appeal  - no way - I will just leave.

Well said

[Pib]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

If you don't have foreign income, then you might have to reattribute US income to foreign source. That involves another form in addition to IRS form 1116 (foreign tax credit) because you would be invoking provisions of the US-Thai DTA treaty. I used to have enough foreign passive income outside Thailand to avoid this issue, but now I have to figure out where in the US-Thai treaty is the wording that authorises that reattribution. Do you (or anyone) have experience with this issue? This involves US passive income remitted into Thailand.

I have the same question.  As I was playing with my HR Block tax software I used each year for my US federal return while trying to complete a Form 1116 to claim the foreign tax credit the software and form seemed geared towards income actually earned/sourced in a foreign country vs US sourced income taxable by the a foreign country such as Thailand.  Then further researched indicated another form might be required which was a Form 8833 Treaty Based Return Disclosure which seemed to only be useable if you benefited from the foreign country taxes replacing US taxes.  And then I thing I saw somewhere else the IRS has a list of treaties that meet those requirement and the US-Thai DTA was not one of them.  Confusing as heck....lot more research/head scratching to do.

 

IRS webpage talking Form 1116 and Form 8833.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-tax-credit-special-issues

Edited October 6, 2023 by Pib

[stat]

3 minutes ago, Antti said:

I guess from now on better to adopt the attitude of Robert DeNiro's character in the movie Heat: "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."

 

If you don't have Thai citizenship (which practically no farang has) or immovable property in Thailand, there is very little they can do when you fly out and never return. 

 

The new PM Srettha is a real estate guy, I don't think this is good for his business interests. I think farangs will eventually be excluded someway, similar to the Philippines.

 

 

 

Maybe they have decided to fleece the farangs once and for all as much as they can in 1 or 2 years and do not care if we never come back as they have taken in Trillions of baht by demanding tax for the last 10 years on every baht ever transmitted to Thailand. You can see the scam they pulled when raising the price of the elite visa fully knowing that the elite visa is dead when they implement the new tax order. So just create a rush before the elite visa is dead. Politicians are only concerned with the near future, never with the outcome in 3 years.

[stat]

5 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Well said

Reality is you can never come back to Thailand ever + maybe they will issue an international arrest warrant and then you can never again travel outside of your own country as you face an arrest whereever you go.

[Antti]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

Reality is you can never come back to Thailand ever + maybe they will issue an international arrest warrant and then you can never again travel outside of your own country as you face an arrest whereever you go.

I don't think that will happen. Thailand is not a very important country in the grand scheme of things. If they start harassing citizens of other countries too much someone will take offence. 

[K2938]

10 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

This is currently on the AMCHAM website:

Thank you.  Does anybody actually have the entire presentation of the AMCHAM event on this which could be most useful?

 

AMCHAM Tax Committee: Thai Tax on Foreign-Sourced Income - Oct 4; https://www.amchamthailand.com/2023/10/05/tax-committee-thai-tax-on-foreign-sourced-income/ )

 

The screenshot on their website is only of one slide. 

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by K2938

[stat]

1 hour ago, Antti said:

I don't think that will happen. Thailand is not a very important country in the grand scheme of things. If they start harassing citizens of other countries too much someone will take offence. 

There a lot of countries that issue international warrants and usually they are followed through without looking into the matter further by interpol. However unlikely it may be (I think it is) the risk is real and the consequences very dire, keep that in mind everyone.

 

https://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/Xref-XML2HTML-en.asp?fileid=23524&lang=en

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by stat

[Lorry]

8 minutes ago, stat said:

There a lot of countries that issue international warrants and usually they are followed through without looking into the matter further by interpol. However unlikely it may be (I think it is) the risk is real and the consequences very dire, keep that in mind everyone.

 

https://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/Xref-XML2HTML-en.asp?fileid=23524&lang=en

 

 

Correct. 

And you wouldn't know about the arrest warrant until you are arrested.

 

But it's really very improbable.

 

[balo]

I am not going to read 72 pages of this nonsense.  Can someone summarize it for me?