Thai government to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024

[Dogmatix]

On 4/21/2024 at 9:24 AM, Mike Teavee said:

Interesting, I read somewhere that you could claim to have a "Moral Obligation" to provide support to your Thai Partner (Not Spouse) but am guessing what is classified as a "Moral Obligation" would be something like having a Child together & not supporting her because it was you who asked her to stop working 12 hour days, 6 days a week so you could spend time together. 

 

Just in case, I'll tweak my plans...

• Remit a total of 210K for her (This would be her 60K tax free allowance + 150K which is taxed at nil rate) & she can start paying 1/2 the rent, utilities, groceries etc... 
• Remit a total of 235K to me (Same 210K + an extra 25K for purchasing Health Insurance)
• Remit Birthday/Xmas gifts (thinking 100K each) which I've a strong feeling she'll be using to take me on holiday for my Birthday/Xmas presents 😉

Rest of my spends will come from savings already in Thailand so should be good for a couple of years until I can either get an LTR or confirmation that remitting my pension (starts in 2026) will not be taxed, either way I'll spend < 180 days in Thailand in 2026 so have an opportunity to top up my Thai Savings accounts as needed. 

 

Your first and second look fine to me.  Your third might be OK too but there is scant evidence on what the RD considers acceptable as a gift to someone who is not a spouse or an ascendant or descendant relative. The only case I know of is the case of Thaksin's wife retroactively making a wedding gift of billions of baht worth of Shin Corp shares to her brother-in-law two years after his wedding. This was initially disallowed by the Tax Court on the grounds of the two year gap but later allowed on appeal like all the Shin family tax cases which initially appeared to be open and shut guilty verdicts but later all overthrown on appeal for unclear legal reasons.  The point is that wedding gifts seem definitely to be OK, if delivered promptly.  In your case that may not be much help because, if you make a wedding gift to your gf, you will presumably be able make gifts to her as a spouse thereafter. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 4/20/2024 at 11:17 PM, stat said:

Sorry have to disagree here, there is no "international obligation" to tax your tax subjects. It is neither tax evasion nor money laundering if you are a tax resident of Thailand and pay no taxes because TH does not want to tax it. Same as in the UK, CH, PH, etc.

Why should it be illegal to avoid taxation on money transfer? There is a legal exception being the LTR Visa, nothing illegal there.

Perhaps - but if I wanted to avoid scrutiny andf paying income taxes on illegal/laundered money, all I have to do is buy an LTR and I am exempt from income taxes. That is against the global obligations to reduce/illiminate illegal/laundered money exchanges between countries.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 4/21/2024 at 9:37 AM, Mike Lister said:

I set out earlier my prefered operating model for these tax threads and also the rationale for compiling the Simple Tax Guide.

 

The need for those things has now been substantially reinforced with poster @Dogmatix findings that penalties DO exist for not filing a tax return, when no tax is due. The message that there are no penalties for not filing when no tax is due, has been repeatedly endlessly in these threads, by prominent posters and read by potentially thousands of people. Poster Dogmatix's findings are now vitally important because it means we have to get the opposite message message out to everyone. The post in this thread that contains that information is now long gone and only a handful of people will have read it. The Simple Tax Guide and its dedicated thread are very important in correcting that error and everyone's understanding, otherwise, who will tell everyone? Ditto the need for a TIN which was previously deemed unnecessary but is of course essential if a tax return is to be filed. Members need and rightfully deserve this information, if they are to make informed choices.

 

I regret I am unable and unwilling to enter into a discussion on these points but I did want to reinforce the need for the Tax Guide and the the non-discussion information thread.

 

That is OK if you do not wish to discuss your statement - but I disagree that Expats should get a TIN and lodge a tax return. Not because of the rules - but because of practice and precendent.  30-40 million Thais do not lodge tax returns even though they obviously earn over 60K/120K a year. A 2000 baht fine is not a problem - worth the decision.  I dont want to debate or argue the matter either - but I do want your post responded to so that others can see some people disagree with that assertion and why.  IMO the best thing to do for any Expat is to avoid the TRD for at least 2-3 years - there is no way Somchai in the local TRD Office (the returns are assesed in each Province) will know anything about DTAs from 60+ countries, and just like Immigration Officers Somchai in TRD has a lot of arbitrary powers and authority.  IMO Expats are best advised to stay away from him/them.

 

I will just add to this statement the fact that at the recent meeting with TRD, they had no idea regarding DTAs as they had never utilised them before. TRD has not provided training and the tools to their Officers to be able to deal with Expats and DTAs and all the other complications. Their previous rule/model meant they did not need to know any of that because it was just accepted that money transferred was earned in a previous year. TRD are not prepared - they are totally unprepared and are ignorant about DTAs.  Stay away from them IMO. 

Edited April 22 by TroubleandGrumpy

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is OK if you do not wish to discuss your statement - but I disagree 100% reagrding not lodging a tax return. Not because of the rules - but because of practice and precendent.  30-40 million Thais do not lodge tax returns even though they obviously earn over 60K/150K a year. I cannot agree with your assertion that all Expats must get a TIN and lodge a tax return. I dont want to debate or argue the matter - but I do want your post responded to so that others can see some people disagree with that assertion.   

That's fine, we don't agree on that point so let's not debate the point any further, in keeping with my earlier commitment not to enter into debates in this thread.

 

The statement I posted about obtaining a TIN is not my personal opinion, it is a requirement from the TRD:

 

"Within 60 days from the date he derives assessable income"

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

Bizarrely a tax return is required in this case on pain of a fine of 2k but there is no evidence that this part of the law has ever been enforce. 

Can you provide a source for this? Thanx.

[4myr]

thanks!

 

20 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Re item 3.x / capital gains sold stocks - where I can declare gains of sold stocks in 2025? [no NL tax paid].  I have only recent experience of filing tax return PND91 online which is in Thai only. I have given up looking at the RD's English translations of PND90/91 forms because I have found them to be often out of date and unreliable with items missing and numeration out of synch with current Thai versions. I recommend that you double check with the Thai versions using Google translate, if you don't read Thai. 

 

In the online PND91 you get to a page which lists all the categories of income under Section 40 of the RC.  You would click on 40 (g) and a page will pop up for you to declare capital gains. Capital gains on SET listed stocks traded through the market are not taxable but Thais have to pay tax on gains on unlisted Thai shares.

 

40 (g) gains derived from transfer of partnership holdings or shares, debentures, bonds, or bills or debt instruments issued by a company or juristic partnership or by any other juristic person.

 

I see that the Thai version of PND90 pdf form is different and has an extra category "Other" under item 3.6. I retrieved both English and Thai forms from the RD site. So only the online form has reference to RC 40(g).

 

20 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

For income earned in 2025 and remitted to Thailand, on which foreign tax has already been paid, I assume you will have to declare the income in the relevant pages similar to the 40 (g) example above but there is, as yet, nowhere to claim a tax credit and perhaps never will be, given the utter incompetence and disinterest the RD is showing towards this highly complex issue triggered without any detailed planning by their previous DG who is now permanent secretary at the finance ministry.  

I searched the Revenue code for "tax credit". It only refers to the Thai context in Section 47Bis, and is not related to foreign paid taxes. I assume for 2024 they will update the forms.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

"Within 60 days from the date he derives assessable income"

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

 

How much assessable income?

 

More germane, your link begins with:

Quote

provides that a taxpayer or a payer of income shall obtain and use a taxpayer identification number (TIN).

 To me, a taxpayer is one who is required to pay taxes, because he has taxable income, meaning his assessable income exceeds deductions, allowances, and the 150k freebie. Not because his assessable income exceeds some minor number -- a number that precludes him from being a "taxpayer."

 

Hanging your hat on translated Thai RD pubs may not serve well the newbie reading your Simple Tax Guide. At least have an asterisk footnote to the effect there is lack of surety; and what some of the filing alternatives are; and what might be the consequences, if any.

 

Here's an interesting alternative input on getting a TIN:

 

Quote

Foreign residents immigrating to Thailand will only need a tax ID number if they are working, carrying out business, or involved in financial transactions and have to pay income tax.

https://www.expatica.com/th/civil/administration/tax-id-thailand-2172861/

 

Have never heard of Expatica. But they seem to have quite a professional operation ongoing. So, I would not say their discovery is inferior to yours, particularly as limited as your discovery seems to be (Mike, take that as constructive criticism, and not as a slam.)

 

But, I would really not recommend your Simple Tax Guide to a newbie, who's lack of knowledgeable investigation on his own, would lead to these conclusions:

1. He needs to get a TIN within 60 days if he has assessable income of (some unidentified) amount.

2. If he has over 120k (220k married) in assessable income, and if he doesn't file a tax return, he's subject to a 2k fine.

 

Mike, don't let 'pride of authorship' ruin your day.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

How much assessable income?

 

More germane, your link begins with:

 To me, a taxpayer is one who is required to pay taxes, because he has taxable income, meaning his assessable income exceeds deductions, allowances, and the 150k freebie. Not because his assessable income exceeds some minor number -- a number that precludes him from being a "taxpayer."

 

Hanging your hat on translated Thai RD pubs may not serve well the newbie reading your Simple Tax Guide. At least have an asterisk footnote to the effect there is lack of surety; and what some of the filing alternatives are; and what might be the consequences, if any.

 

Here's an interesting alternative input on getting a TIN:

 

 

Have never heard of Expatica. But they seem to have quite a professional operation ongoing. So, I would not say their discovery is inferior to yours, particularly as limited as your discovery seems to be (Mike, take that as constructive criticism, and not as a slam.)

 

But, I would really not recommend your Simple Tax Guide to a newbie, who's lack of knowledgeable investigation on his own, would lead to these conclusions:

1. He needs to get a TIN within 60 days if he has assessable income of (some unidentified) amount.

2. If he has over 120k (220k married) in assessable income, and if he doesn't file a tax return, he's subject to a 2k fine.

 

Mike, don't let 'pride of authorship' ruin your day.

 

Well said - there is far too much ambiguity and uncertainty to state with any degree of certainty that all retired/married Expats must get a TIN and lodge a tax return.  Certainly employed Expats, and those running a business, or those earning money overseas (salary, rental, etc.), do have to lodge a tax return. The ambiguity and uncertainty over how TRD will apply the rule change to retired/married Expats who are bringing in either Pensions, Savings or other funds, is still very uncertain. 

[Rimmer]

An argumentative post and a reply have been removed

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 4/21/2024 at 11:07 AM, JimGant said:

Indeed. And from the Revenue Code Section 90:

  Quote

Section 90 The following persons failing to comply with the provisions stated below shall be fined not more that 2,000 Baht-

(3) person liable to tax failing to file a tax return under Section 83/2;

(4) person liable to tax return filing failing to file a tax return under Section 83/3;

 

Section 83/2 and 89/3 refer to VAT Tax and obligations thereunder - nothing to do with income taxes as far as I can see.

[rexpotter]

Has anything been enacted?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Worthwhile providing the following information from the TRD Revenue Code - whioch I again advise is NOT for taxpayers, but is the TRD 'bible' that they use when they are assessing a person/company for tax obligations.  There is a few of these categories below that apply to myself - hopefully they and maybe a few others will apply to Expats generally.  

 

Section 42 states "The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:"

 

(1) Per diem or transport expenses that an employee or a person performing work spends honestly, necessarily, exclusively and wholly in carrying out his duties.

(2) Transport expenses and traveling per diem at the rates prescribed by the Government in the Royal Decree governing the rates of transport expenses and traveling per diem.

(3) The part of traveling expenses paid by the employer to the employee which the employee spent wholly and necessarily in traveling from a different place to take up employment for the first time or for returning to his place of origin after the termination of the employment. However, this exemption shall not cover traveling expenses received by an employee who returns to his place of origin and then takes up employment with the same employer within three hundred fifty five days from the last working day of the previous employment.

(4) Where a contract of employment which was bona fide entered into before the entry into force of the Royal Act on Income Tax B.E. 2475 requires that the employer shall pay to the employee upon the termination of employment a single payment of gratuity, fee, commission or bonus, such payment shall be excluded for the purpose of income tax calculation, notwithstanding the whole amount that is paid after the entry into force of the provisions of this Part.

(5) Special post allowance, house rent allowance and rent free residence granted to an official of a Thai embassy or consulate abroad.

(6) Income from a sale or discount received from purchase stamp duties or government postage stamps.

(7) Board or committee meeting allowance and teaching and examination fees paid by the government or public educational institutions.

(8) The following interest:

(a) Interest from Government savings lotteries, or interest on demand deposit with the Government Savings Bank;

(b) Interest on savings deposit with a cooperative;

(c) Interest on savings deposit with a bank in Thailand which is repayable on demand; only in the case where the total amount of interest received by any taxpayer does not exceed one thousand baht throughout tax year, in accordance with the rules, procedures and conditions as prescribed by the Director- General.8910

8R.D.No.301 B.E. 2539 9N.DG.IT.No.55 10N.DG.IT.No.64
(9) Sale of a movable property acquired from inheritance or acquired not in a commercial or profitable manner, but not including ship or vessel with freight of six tons or over, steam boat or motor boat with freight of five tons and over, or floating house.

(10) Income derived from an inheritance.11

11R.C.A.A. (No. 40) B.E. 2558
(11) Award for the purpose of education or technical research, government lottery and government savings prize, prize given by government authority in contest or competition to a person other than a professional contestant or competitor, or reward paid by government authority for the purpose of prevention of wrongdoing.

(12) Special pension, special gratuity, inherited pension or inherited gratuity.

(13) Compensation against wrongful acts, amount derived from insurance or from funeral assistance scheme.

(14) (Repealed by R.C.A.A. (No.39) B.E. 2557)

(15) Income of a farmer from sale of rice cultivated by the farmer and/or his family.

(16) Income derived from an undivided estate liable to tax under Section 57 Bis.

(17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial Regulations.12

12M.R.No.126 No.201 B.E. 2539
(18) Red Cross lottery prize, income from a sale or discount received from purchase of Red Cross lotteries.

(19) Interest received under Section 4 Decem.13

13M.R.No.161 B.E. 2526
(20) (Repealed by R.C.A.A. (No.26) B.E. 2525 S.5)

(21) (Repealed by R.C.A.A. (No.29) B.E. 2534 S.6)

(22) (Repealed by E.A.R.C. (No.14) B.E. 2529 S.8)

(23) Income from sale of investment units in a mutual fund.

(24) Income of a mutual fund.

(25) Compensatory benefit received by the taxpayer from the social security fund under the law governing social security.

(26) Income derived from the transfer of ownership or possessory right in an immovable property without any consideration to a legitimate child, not including an adopted child, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million baht per a legitimate child throughout the tax year. (R.C.A.A. (No. 43) B.E. 2559 which has come into force as from 1 February B.E. 2559)

(27) Income derived from maintenance and support or gifts from ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million Baht throughout the tax year.

(28) Income derived from maintenances and support under moral purposes or gifts received in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with custom and tradition from persons who are not ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding ten million baht throughout the tax year.

(29) Income derived from gifts whereby a donor has expressed his or her intention or appeared to have an intention of using the gifts for religious, educational or public benefit activities in accordance with the rules and conditions as prescribed by a Ministerial Regulation.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

How much assessable income?

 

More germane, your link begins with:

 To me, a taxpayer is one who is required to pay taxes, because he has taxable income, meaning his assessable income exceeds deductions, allowances, and the 150k freebie. Not because his assessable income exceeds some minor number -- a number that precludes him from being a "taxpayer."

 

Hanging your hat on translated Thai RD pubs may not serve well the newbie reading your Simple Tax Guide. At least have an asterisk footnote to the effect there is lack of surety; and what some of the filing alternatives are; and what might be the consequences, if any.

 

Here's an interesting alternative input on getting a TIN:

 

 

Have never heard of Expatica. But they seem to have quite a professional operation ongoing. So, I would not say their discovery is inferior to yours, particularly as limited as your discovery seems to be (Mike, take that as constructive criticism, and not as a slam.)

 

But, I would really not recommend your Simple Tax Guide to a newbie, who's lack of knowledgeable investigation on his own, would lead to these conclusions:

1. He needs to get a TIN within 60 days if he has assessable income of (some unidentified) amount.

2. If he has over 120k (220k married) in assessable income, and if he doesn't file a tax return, he's subject to a 2k fine.

 

Mike, don't let 'pride of authorship' ruin your day.

 

The Simple Tax Guide thread says the following, which I think gives newbies sufficient options to consider and decide whether they should obtain a TIN and file or not: 

 

There has been some debate over several months about who must file a tax return in Thailand, which I think  the TRD makes explicitly clear and is reflected in the Simple Tax Guide. I thought it might be useful however to also provide a quote from PWC on this subject which says:

 

"The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due:

 

• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than Baht 60,000

• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000".

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

 

 

It's not possible, of course, to file a Thai tax return without first obtaining a Tax Identification Number or TIN. The TRD English language translation on this point is clear but the information is set out perhaps more  succinctly in the link below which states:

 

"Eligibility Criteria (to obtain a TIN):

Expatriates need a TIN if they are Thai tax residents (residing in Thailand for 180 days or more) and have assessable income in Thailand. (see above quote)

Application Process (for a TIN):
To apply for a TIN, expatriates must complete Form L.P. 10.1 and provide a valid passport, visa, and proof of address at their local tax office".

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/thailand-expats-guide-to-applying-for-a-tax-identification-number-tin/#:~:text=Expatriates need a TIN if,at their local tax office.

[eisfeld]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The Simple Tax Guide thread says the following, which I think gives newbies sufficient options to consider to decide whether they should obtain a TIN and file or not: 

 

There has been some debate over several months about who must file a tax return in Thailand, which I think  the TRD makes explicitly clear and is reflected in the Simple Tax Guide. I thought it might be useful however to also provide a quote from PWC on this subject which says:

 

"The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due:

 

• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than Baht 60,000

• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000".

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

 

 

It's not possible, of course, to file a Thai tax return without first obtaining a Tax Identification Number or TIN. The TRD English language translation on this point is clear but the information is set out perhaps more  succinctly in the link below which states:

 

"Eligibility Criteria (to obtain a TIN):

Expatriates need a TIN if they are Thai tax residents (residing in Thailand for 180 days or more) and have assessable income in Thailand. (see above quote)

Application Process (for a TIN):
To apply for a TIN, expatriates must complete Form L.P. 10.1 and provide a valid passport, visa, and proof of address at their local tax office".

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/thailand-expats-guide-to-applying-for-a-tax-identification-number-tin/#:~:text=Expatriates need a TIN if,at their local tax office.

 

Good information. I'd like to point out a slightly problematic situation reading the above. One might for example be required to file a tax return which requires a TIN because one had over 60k income but none of it might be assessable income and so one is not eligible to get a TIN and therefore can't file a return.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

 

Good information. I'd like to point out a slightly problematic situation reading the above. One might for example be required to file a tax return which requires a TIN because one had over 60k income but none of it might be assessable income and so one is not eligible to get a TIN and therefore can't file a return.

Well spotted! Can we label this one as work in progress?  🙂

[Dogmatix]

4 hours ago, 4myr said:

thanks!

 

 

I see that the Thai version of PND90 pdf form is different and has an extra category "Other" under item 3.6. I retrieved both English and Thai forms from the RD site. So only the online form has reference to RC 40(g).

 

I searched the Revenue code for "tax credit". It only refers to the Thai context in Section 47Bis, and is not related to foreign paid taxes. I assume for 2024 they will update the forms.

 

Apologies.  I should have said the section for capital gains on shares and similar assets is 40.4 (g) [40.4 (ช)], not 40 (g).  I am pretty sure that the online version of PND90 has headings to click on that correspond exactly to the income categories in Section 40.  I have declared for myself and for Mrs Dog, who is actually an accounting grad from a Thai university but gets me to do her tax return, income from employment from commissions and from Thai dividends. Last time I also opened up the section for interest income but decided I didn't have to declare it, despite being over 20k last year because I have already had 15% w/h tax deducted.  I didn't look at 40.4 (g) but I assume it is the same as the others.   

 

Since you mentioned it, I tracked down a Thai hard copy PND90 and an English translation (for guidance only and it seemed not to correspond exactly to the original, as I have seen in the past).  You are right. In the hard copy Thai PND90 there is no specific space for declaring capital gains on shares, even though they are a separate subsection in the RC. You have to declare capital gains on shares in Section 3.6.6 (Income under Section 40.4 of the RC) at the bottom where it says others (specify). This is confirmed in the RD's English language guide to PND90 for 2021 on page 10 no. 3 item 6 (attached).  

 

The omission of a specific section for capital gains on equity investments in the hard copy PND90 seems odd, given that there must be many taxable transactions in Thai unlisted companies and that there is a separate section for foreign dividends which I assume very few people declared in the past because they were able to avoid tax on them by leaving them overseas until the next tax year. There are also now 2 separate sections for crypto related gains.  But anyway there is little obvious logic to many things done by Thai bureaucrats, including the RD order that has caused all this pain. 

 

I once foolishly missed the deadline for online PND90 filing which meant that I had to file late and in hard copy only, as the online function is disabled after the deadline, which I didn't realise until it was too late. In order to claim the tax credits from my Thai dividends I ended up having to submit over 20 supplementary pages and do the entire computation of tax credits and tax computation myself manually. I nearly went mad doing it but it was worth it as I got a tax rebate of about 350k. This seems to be what Thais and foreigners will have to do to declare foreign source income.   

 

Another thing of note is that income from dividends paid by overseas companies has been an item even in the hard copy PND90 for years and years.  These are items that are taxed at source by a number of countries, which means that Thai taxpayers need to claim tax credits for them.  Logically there should already be a space to claim tax credits against them but there isn't.  So I am not holding my breath about a space suddenly appearing to claim tax credits for other types of foreign source income.  It could be the same as the credits on foreign dividends, i.e. add some supplementary pages in Thai making your case for tax credits and doing the computation of tax yourself.

 

.PND90.pdf

guidePND90 2022.pdf

Edited April 22 by Dogmatix

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Some people have quoted the following sentence in the Revenue Code assuming it applies to Pensions (Govt social welfare payments), but IMO it does not refer to pension as we understand it in the west, but to a form of salary payment.  If anyone can find exactly the Section that refers to Government Pensions being taxable income that would be appreciated.

  

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

 

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

 

The word pension in the contact above does not refer to social welfare payments that we Expats call 'pensions'. It refers to people being employed and receiving their salary in the form of a pension (regular scheduled payment) or any other form of money as listed above.

 

Section 38_64 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, rexpotter said:

Has anything been enacted?

Yes, last year.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

That's fine, we don't agree on that point so let's not debate the point any further, in keeping with my earlier commitment not to enter into debates in this thread.

 

The statement I posted about obtaining a TIN is not my personal opinion, it is a requirement from the TRD:

"Within 60 days from the date he derives assessable income"

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

QUOTE-   The following persons need to apply for TIN:

1.   A person liable to personal income tax who :

(1)      Does not have a PIN under the civilian registration law; i.e. a foreigner, non-juristic ordinary partnership, non-juristic body of persons, or undivided estate.  etc.

 

IMO a person is liable to personal income tax when they meet all the criteria and have assesable income (income that is taxable) - meaning that they have to pay income tax.

 

Assessable income means income that is taxable under this Chapter.   That being Chapter 3 - Income Tax.

Chapter 3 Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

I interpret that to mean that if I am not liable to pay personal income tax if I do not have income that is taxable due to DTA or any other excemption, allowance or exclusion in the Revenue Code.  Therefore I do not have to get a TIN - and I suspect many Expats would be in the same boat.  

 

 

[Dogmatix]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

Can you provide a source for this? Thanx.

 

Section 56 Every taxpayer except a minor or a person adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent shall, on or before the last day of March every year, file to the official appointed by the Minister a tax return reporting the assessable income received in the preceding tax year in the form prescribed by the Director-General, if such person-¹²

¹²N.DG.IT.No.28

(1) has no spouse and has the assessable income of the preceding tax year exceeds 60,000 baht,

(2) has no spouse and has the assessable income of the preceding tax year under only Section 40 (1) exceeds 120,000 baht,

(3) has a spouse and the assessable income of the preceding tax year exceeds 120,000 baht, or

(4) has a spouse and the assessable income of the preceding tax year under only Section 40 (1) exceeds 220,000 baht.

 

Section 35 Any person failing to comply with Sections 17, Sections 50 Bis, Sections 51 or Sections 69, unless in case of a force majeure, shall be subject to a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht.

 

Section 17 In relation to tax return filing, it shall be filed within the time limit specified in the Chapters regarding taxes and in accordance with the form prescribed by the Director-General.

 

In fact the threshold for filing a tax return is 60,000 for single taxpayers or 120,000 for married taxpayers, if there is any income under sections of RC other than Section 40.1 which is income from employment (including occupational pensions).  For those with only income from employment or occupational pension the threshold for filing a tax return is 120,000 for a single or 220,000 for a couple.  

 

This means for example that, if you remit pension income plus some interest income or income from dividends or capital gains and it is over 60,000 or 120,000 for a couple, you have to file a tax return.  Another issue is Section 49which allows an RD official make up his assessment of what a tax resident's income may have been, if he doesn't file a tax return.  As already mentioned, they are have not been know to harass low income Thais for not filing tax returns and hopefully they will not harass expat pensioners either.  However, that doesn't rule out the possibility of shaking down expats living in ostentatious mansions in rural villages, even if they have filed tax returns.

 

Section 49. In the case where a taxpayer deriving income does not file a tax return, or the assessment official considers that he underreports the amount of his taxable income, the assessment official with the approval of the Director-General shall have the power to determine the amount of his net income on the basis of the money or property owned or possessed by such taxpayer, his expenditure or standard of living or his behavior, or the income statistics either of the taxpayer or of other persons carrying on a similar business. The official shall make an assessment accordingly and give the taxpayer a notice of the amount of tax payable. In this respect, the provisions of Sections 19 through 26 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

[redwood1]

I bet there are 10s of millions of Thais who make over 60-120K baht who have never filed taxes once...

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, rexpotter said:

Has anything been enacted?

 

Not sure what you mean by this but, if your question is "Has anything been enacted requiring tax payments on remittances of foreign source income from any year in the past, the answer is no."  This was just done via an internal order to RD staff telling them to interpret the Revenue Code differently from how it has been interpreted since the 1980s based on a clear ruling at that time. To enact this re-interpretation would require an act of parliament with full parliamentary process and public consultation which could easily result in its defeat in parliament. If the government could make a case that it requires emergency legislation, they could enact the reinterpretation through a Royal Decree. However, given that the ruling has stood since the 1980s and the RD is unable to give any idea of how much incremental revenue it stands to collect from this, the urgency requiring a Royal Decree would risk being challenged and the decree potentially nullified.

 

The order is binding on RD staff but not binding on taxpayers who are obviously not subject to RD orders to staff. The RD has argued that, since it is a directive to staff on how to explain the Revenue Code to members of the public, taxpayers have a duty to follow advice from RD officers and pay tax accordingly.  This a pathetic legal argument which would not stand up in a court in a rule of law jurisdiction and may also not stand up in the Thai Tax Court, if challenged and hopefully it will be but no sign of that yet.

[Dogmatix]

10 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

I bet there are 10s of millions of Thais who make over 60-120K baht who have never filed taxes once...

 

This is clearly the case, given the stats published by the RD on tax returns filed and, so far the RD has shown no interest in tracking down the ones who are unlikely to have assessable income well over the threshold. What they are doing is trying to track down Thais who make a living from selling on stuff on open sources like Facebook.  It is the traders they are after, not wage earners making 15,000 a month who should technically file tax returns but have no tax to pay.  In the old days they used to try to track down businesses like restaurants by visiting them incognito to assess the average meal price and then having people sit across the street to count the number of customers.  Now they are applying AI and going after the huge numbers of online traders who don't file.  I doubt they will go after expat pensioners as a matter of policy but, if you look back in this thread, you could find examples of expat pensioners who have already received surprise visits from RD officers at home demanding to know why they haven't filed tax returns. I know one guy who had that happen because he retired from a job in Thailand and stopped filing tax returns, as he only had his already taxed foreign pension. Others claim they had visits without ever filing tax returns.  

Edited April 22 by Dogmatix

[xylophone]

I would like to say that the information provided by a few posters on here is good and thought-provoking, although as many have said, we will not know until the powers that be actually know, and it appears they don't at the moment.

 

On a personal note I would like to thank Mike Lister for the information which he has provided to me, which seems to cover my situation at the moment, but if nothing else it is food for thought and gives me a better idea of where I stand in this whole thing.

 

Great that folks like this, TroubleandGrumpy and Dogmatix are posting information as they see it, and although they might not all agree on certain aspects, it's fantastic information and I would like to thank them all, and of course others also.

[Mike Lister]

I am revising para's 4 & 5 of the Simple Guide to indicate who must file a tax return as follows:

 

 

Thai tax laws require Foreigners who reside in Thailand, for one or more periods, with at least 180 days in one tax calendar year, AND who receive income from inside or outside Thailand via:

 

a) Income from employment (wages, salaries, remuneration, etc.) assessable under Section 40 of the Revenue Code;

b) Income from business operations is assessable under Section 40.

c) Passive or property income (interest, dividends, rental income, goodwill, pension, capital gains etc.) based on Article 41 paragraph 2 of the Revenue Code.

 

......to assess their income for Thai tax and file a tax return, providing the  assessable income threshold has been exceeded. Thai-sourced income is always taxable in Thailand, wherever it is received and regardless of tax residence status. Foreign sourced income is subject to remittance, tax residency and other factors such as terms of a DTA.

 

The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due:

 

• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than Baht 60,000

• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000".

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

Section 56 Every taxpayer except a minor or a person adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent shall, on or before the last day of March every year, file to the official appointed by the Minister a tax return reporting the assessable income received in the preceding tax year in the form prescribed by the Director-General, if such person-¹²

¹²N.DG.IT.No.28

(1) has no spouse and has the assessable income of the preceding tax year exceeds 60,000 baht,

(2) has no spouse and has the assessable income of the preceding tax year under only Section 40 (1) exceeds 120,000 baht,

(3) has a spouse and the assessable income of the preceding tax year exceeds 120,000 baht, or

(4) has a spouse and the assessable income of the preceding tax year under only Section 40 (1) exceeds 220,000 baht.

 

Section 35 Any person failing to comply with Sections 17, Sections 50 Bis, Sections 51 or Sections 69, unless in case of a force majeure, shall be subject to a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht.

 

Section 17 In relation to tax return filing, it shall be filed within the time limit specified in the Chapters regarding taxes and in accordance with the form prescribed by the Director-General.

 

In fact the threshold for filing a tax return is 60,000 for single taxpayers or 120,000 for married taxpayers, if there is any income under sections of RC other than Section 40.1 which is income from employment (including occupational pensions).  For those with only income from employment or occupational pension the threshold for filing a tax return is 120,000 for a single or 220,000 for a couple.  

 

This means for example that, if you remit pension income plus some interest income or income from dividends or capital gains and it is over 60,000 or 120,000 for a couple, you have to file a tax return.  Another issue is Section 49which allows an RD official make up his assessment of what a tax resident's income may have been, if he doesn't file a tax return.  As already mentioned, they are have not been know to harass low income Thais for not filing tax returns and hopefully they will not harass expat pensioners either.  However, that doesn't rule out the possibility of shaking down expats living in ostentatious mansions in rural villages, even if they have filed tax returns.

 

Section 49. In the case where a taxpayer deriving income does not file a tax return, or the assessment official considers that he underreports the amount of his taxable income, the assessment official with the approval of the Director-General shall have the power to determine the amount of his net income on the basis of the money or property owned or possessed by such taxpayer, his expenditure or standard of living or his behavior, or the income statistics either of the taxpayer or of other persons carrying on a similar business. The official shall make an assessment accordingly and give the taxpayer a notice of the amount of tax payable. In this respect, the provisions of Sections 19 through 26 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

All these quotes refer to "taxpayer" which is an individual who effectively has tax to pay.

By definition, people who assess (rightly or wrongly) that they are not liable to tax are not (yet) taxpayers.

 

IMHO If TRD wanted to target a larger audience they would have used the wording "tax resident" or just "resident" (as it's usually used implying tax resident) rather than "taxpayer".

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

All these quotes refer to "taxpayer" which is an individual who effectively has tax to pay.

By definition, people who assess (rightly or wrongly) that they are not liable to tax are not (yet) taxpayers.

 

IMHO If TRD wanted to target a larger audience they would have used the wording "tax resident" or just "resident" (as it's usually used implying tax resident) rather than "taxpayer".

I don't believe there is a requirement to actually pay tax, in order to be classed as a taxpayer. A worker is still classified as a member of the workforce, even if they are unemployed.

 

A taxpayer is anyone who is subject to taxes, which includes those who owe taxes and those who get a refund. In general, there are two types of taxpayers: individuals and corporations.

 

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-is-a-taxpayer-5295697#:~:text=A taxpayer is anyone who,of taxpayers%3A individuals and corporations.

[proton]

All far too complicated, I will be just ignoring it and hope for the best

[scottiejohn]

20 minutes ago, proton said:

All far too complicated, I will be just ignoring it and hope for the best

I shall wait until a month or two after we hear/read of real life experiences in the next few (6/12) months!

 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

All these quotes refer to "taxpayer" which is an individual who effectively has tax to pay.

By definition, people who assess (rightly or wrongly) that they are not liable to tax are not (yet) taxpayers.

 

IMHO If TRD wanted to target a larger audience they would have used the wording "tax resident" or just "resident" (as it's usually used implying tax resident) rather than "taxpayer".

 

The RD English versions are only for guidance and they sometimes add nuances that are not there in the original in order to try to make them read better in English.  In the case of Section 56 the Thai phrase that is translated as "taxpayer" is บุคคล which just means "person", not "taxpayer".  

 

A good example of why you need to be able read Thai and make the effort to look at the original to opine on this stuff.  Nearly all the farang tax advisors are illiterate in Thai and just read translations and/or rely on unreliable Thai staff and often jump to conclusions that are completely wrong. It is also important to be able to search for case studies in Thai.

Edited April 22 by Dogmatix