Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[balo]

I am not going to read 72 pages of this nonsense.  Can someone summarize it for me? 

 

[Ricardo]

2 minutes ago, balo said:

I am not going to read 72 pages of this nonsense.  Can someone summarize it for me? 

Houston, we might have a problem, but  ...  nobody really knows yet  ...  watch this space.

[deejai33]

51 minutes ago, balo said:

I am not going to read 72 pages of this nonsense.  Can someone summarize it for me? 

 

Wonderful loophole looks like its closing.  If you haven't already paid tax on income remitted to thailand in 2024 then you'll be obliged too.  Double tax treaties may help you.

 

In 2023 you can still get through the loophole if you have 2022 income to remit.   Do it before end of 2023.

 

Be thankful the loophole worked for 38 years.

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by deejai33

[Guavaman]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:15 PM, ballpoint said:

... I previously posted this on another topic, but I was selected for audit a few years ago.  (I only found out about this when a 90 day report was rejected because the Revenue Department had flagged my passport, and I had to go to the local immigration office where they informed me of this, and then had to call the local Revenue Department office to arrange the audit). 

 

For all of you who are thinking that you can just leave the country if/when you get into a situation with the Revenue Department, see Ballpoint's post above. RD flagged his passport and notified Immigration. Nowadays, Immigration would put your name and passport no. on a computerized list that would raise an alarm with the IO who is processing your departure and most likely seize your passport,  preventing you from leaving the country until things are sorted out with the RD.  Or you will experience this when you try to do a 90 day report or an annual extension of stay.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, Guavaman said:

For all of you who are thinking that you can just leave the country if/when you get into a situation with the Revenue Department, see Ballpoint's post above. RD flagged his passport and notified Immigration. Nowadays, Immigration would put your name and passport no. on a computerized list that would raise an alarm with the IO who is processing your departure and most likely seize your passport,  preventing you from leaving the country until things are sorted out with the RD.  Or you will experience this when you try to do a 90 day report or an annual extension of stay.

And you wouldn't know they flagged your passport until you deal with immigration.  You may not even know RD has a problem with you. 

Just like it happened to ballpoint. Just like an Interpol red notice works.

 

Remit as little as possible in 2024 and 2025. So even if a tax liability arises, it won't be too much, you can easily pay it and then leave the country if you want. 

By 2026 (or 2027) we will know how this all plays out.

[ukrules]

6 hours ago, Lorry said:

Correct. 

And you wouldn't know about the arrest warrant until you are arrested.

 

But it's really very improbable.

 

It's nonsense, that's what it is.

[Mike Teavee]

11 hours ago, JimGant said:

Only Americans will be paying no more taxes on their worldwide income under this new Thai tax proposal. Thus, all the complaints we're hearing on this thread must be from all those who have been getting a tax holiday by leaving their home country for Thailand -- and now that door is closing.

Are you sure you won't have to pay more tax overall? 

 

I have no idea how US Taxes work, but to use a few examples from the UK where additional tax may be due:-

1. Tax Free withdrawal from a Pension, in the UK you can take up to 25% of your pension pot Tax Free (I believe you guys can do something similar with a Roth IRA).
2. Where your Personal Allowance is > than the Personal in Thailand thus some of the income is untaxed (or taxed at the 0%/"Nil Band" rate).
3. Where you have income from a Tax free asset (an example would be an ISA in the UK).
4. Income from Rental, in the UK (and I've read US) you can deduct all maintenance costs, professional fees etc... so you're only taxed on the Net amount, in Thailand (I've read) you cannot deduct all of these fees so are taxed on a much higher amount.
5. Dividends, in the UK you do not need to pay anymore than the Withholding Tax. 
6. Interest from Bank Accounts, in the UK you do not need to pay tax on the 1st £1,000 interest.
7. Capital Gains, in the UK you do not need to pay Capital Gains Tax on profits from the sale of non-property assets.

Appreciate these are all examples from the UK, as I say I don't know how Tax works in the US so don't now if any of these would catch you guys . 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[jerrymahoney]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Appreciate these are all examples from the UK, as I say I don't know how Tax works in the US so don't now if any of these would catch you guys .

Hard to say as USofA has Double-Tax Agreement (DTA) with Thailand (1997) and UK does not.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

7 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Hard to say as USofA has Double-Tax Agreement (DTA) with Thailand (1997) and UK does not.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html

UK does have a DTA with Thailand (1981)

 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

 

Somebody has already posted the link to the complete (iirc 61 countries) of DTAs along with links to the treaties, a summary of them can be found here... 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/foreign-tax-relief-and-tax-treaties

Edited October 7, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[jacko45k]

18 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If Somchai in the local RD Office has a problem with that he is welcome to put forward in writing the reasons for me not lodging a tax return over the previous X years.

I actually started to lodge Thai tax returns some years ago to reclaim the withholding tax on bank interest, which was worth a few bob. Before I qualified for my State  pension.... the interest dwindled, and maybe Covid helped the RD to forget to send reminders..  so I got absent minded too!

[KannikaP]

15 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

38 pages, with ONE PARAGRAPH or SENTENCE on many of them.

Can't be 4rsed to read through all the gobbledegook. I'll wait until it is officially announced

[ThaiPauly]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:22 AM, Mike Teavee said:

 

 

Obviously some income streams like state pensions may be exempt but private pensions would seem to be fair game, even if they've already paid tax on the income in their home countries. 

But then again no

Most of us pay tax on our private pensions...so that would be double taxation no?

[jerrymahoney]

29 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

UK does have a DTA with Thailand (1981)

Mea culpa. 'Great Britain & Northern Ireland' on the Thai Rev Dept. page. Not UK.

[jerrymahoney]

2 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

But then again no

Most of us pay tax on our private pensions...so that would be double taxation no?

See 3. US-Thai DTA.

[jacko45k]

Just now, jerrymahoney said:

See 3. US-Thai DTA.

Yes, it has to be small print!

[jerrymahoney]

Just now, jacko45k said:

Yes, it has to be small print!

That should be 1. not 3. -- click on any jpg to enlarge.

[Dogmatix]

36 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I actually started to lodge Thai tax returns some years ago to reclaim the withholding tax on bank interest, which was worth a few bob. Before I qualified for my State  pension.... the interest dwindled, and maybe Covid helped the RD to forget to send reminders..  so I got absent minded too!

I resumed filing after a few years between jobs and there was no question about the missing years. There is no obligation to file if you have no incone. Filing to reclaim tax on interest and dividends is optional. If they do ask, tell them you had no assessable income or file late returns claiming tax refunds which might offset late fines..

Edited October 7, 2023 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

23 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

38 pages, with ONE PARAGRAPH or SENTENCE on many of them.

Can't be 4rsed to read through all the gobbledegook. I'll wait until it is officially announced

It’s already officially announced in 161/2566 a directive to RD officers to reinterpret the Tax Code to mean something other than what was intended. Binding on RD officers but not on the public. That is how this government wants to operate. Thaksin is back in power from his “prison cell” and it’s back to the Thaksinite authoritarian ways of rule by decree. There may be no further announcement and no effort to amend the law by lawful means.

[ThaiPauly]

No, I just can't  be bothered to try and read this thread...it's taking me more time to navigate through the ads than it is to read the thread....I can find all this on other forums anyway.....

 

The owners want to sell Thai Visa, well good luck with that  I hardly visit anymore, when Jonathan Fairfield's company sold TV it was in good condition, Asean only care about advertising revenue not the members  of which there are very very few left from the good old days of TV, it was a real community  and we socialized regularly, in fact one of my mates is flying in for a visit from NZ , I met this guy  almost 20 years ago on this forum and we are best freinds.

 

I hope they do sell it and that the new owners will remember that without people like us they are nothing

[Dogmatix]

17 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

But then again no

Most of us pay tax on our private pensions...so that would be double taxation no?

Of state pensions the only one I have seen that is exempt in a DTA is US social security. The UK state pension is not exempted in the UK DTA which only exempts govt pensions paid for service to central and local governments.

[Mike Teavee]

13 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

But then again no

Most of us pay tax on our private pensions...so that would be double taxation no?

It all depends on how the agreement is applied... 

 

E.g. A very simple example, you have a private pension of £12,500 pa (Approx 560,000b) which would generate no Tax as it's < the £12,570 Personal Taxation Allowance but your PTA in Thailand is 150,000 (Ignoring additional allowances), in a worse case scenario you could be liable to tax on all of it when you transfer it to Thailand . 

   - First 150,000 taxed at 0% = 0

   - Next 150,000 taxed at 5% = 7,500

   - Next 200,000 taxed at 10% = 20,000

  - Remaining 60,000 taxed at 15% = 9,000

Total Tax = 36,500b pa

[redwood1]

4 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

No, I just can't  be bothered to try and read this thread...it's taking me more time to navigate through the ads than it is to read the thread....I can find all this on other forums anyway.....

 

The owners want to sell Thai Visa, well good luck with that  I hardly visit anymore, when Jonathan Fairfield's company sold TV it was in good condition, Asean only care about advertising revenue not the members  of which there are very very few left from the good old days of TV, it was a real community  and we socialized regularly, in fact one of my mates is flying in for a visit from NZ , I met this guy  almost 20 years ago on this forum and we are best freinds.

 

I hope they do sell it and that the new owners will remember that without people like us they are nothing

Sir if you use a PC .....Just enlarge the page and you will Never see a single ad ever...

Edited October 7, 2023 by redwood1

[Mike Teavee]

14 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

I resumed filing after a few years between jobs and there was no question about the missing years. There is no obligation to file if you have no incone. Filing to reclaim tax on interest and dividends is optional. If they do ask, tell them you had no assessable income or file late returns claiming tax refunds which might offset late fines..

Thanks for this, I filed my 1st Tax Return this year to reclaim withheld tax on interest from the Bank in 2021/2022 & it was such a hassle (+ still haven't received the money 5 months after the status was updated to "Successfully submitted (Receipt issued)" ) that I wasn't planning on doing it again (I only did it this year as I had to get a TIN for my UK Bank) so it's good to know that it's optional if I'm not receiving any income in Thailand (I'm living on Savings I brought over in 2020/2021).

 

 

 

 

[quake]

18 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

No, I just can't  be bothered to try and read this thread...it's taking me more time to navigate through the ads than it is to read the thread....I can find all this on other forums anyway.....

Try using Brave browser, works good for me.

[freeworld]

30 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

It all depends on how the agreement is applied... 

 

E.g. A very simple example, you have a private pension of £12,500 pa (Approx 560,000b) which would generate no Tax as it's < the £12,570 Personal Taxation Allowance but your PTA in Thailand is 150,000 (Ignoring additional allowances), in a worse case scenario you could be liable to tax on all of it when you transfer it to Thailand . 

   - First 150,000 taxed at 0% = 0

   - Next 150,000 taxed at 5% = 7,500

   - Next 200,000 taxed at 10% = 20,000

  - Remaining 60,000 taxed at 15% = 9,000

Total Tax = 36,500b pa

The allowances really need to be factored into consideration

 

The taxable income is not the 12500 example.

 

TAXABLE INCOME = Assessable Income - deductions - allowances

 

 

PWC Thailand I Thai Tax 2023/24 Booklet
6
Deductible expenses
The amount of personal expenses that may be deducted depends on
the category of assessable income, as follows:
• Income under the above categories of assessable income (1) and
(2), including goodwill, copyright and other rights under (3), a
deduction of 50% is allowed subject to a maximum of Baht
100,000.
• Income under (5), the rates of deduction vary from 10% to 30%
depending on the type of rented property.
• Income under (6), (7) and (8), the rates of deduction vary from
30% to 60% depending on the type of income or type of business.
The deduction of expenses in relation to goodwill, copyright and other
rights under (3) and assessable income under (5)-(8) may be on an
actual basis if satisfactory evidence of the expenditure can be
provided to the Revenue Department.

Allowances
There are two categories of allowances after the deduction of
expenses:
1. Personal allowances Baht
• Taxpayer 60,000
• Spouse (if spouse has no income) 60,000
• Legitimate child of the taxpayer or the spouse
(without limit), each 30,000
• Additional allowance for legitimate child of the
taxpayer or the spouse from the second child
onwards who was born in or after 2018, each 30,000

PwC Thailand I Thai Tax 2023/24 Booklet
7
• Taxpayer’s adopted child (maximum 3), each
(If there are legitimate and adopted children
together, a maximum of only 3 children
is allowed) 30,000
• Parental care, each 30,000
• Care of disabled or incapacitated family
members, each 60,000
• Care of a disabled or incapacitated person
other than a family member 60,000
In addition, a resident of Thailand who is 65 years of age or older
is entitled to personal income tax exemption on income up to an
amount not exceeding Baht 190,000.
2. Specific allowances
• Life insurance premiums in an amount not exceeding Baht
100,000 paid by a taxpayer on his/her own life are allowed as
a deduction provided that the insurance policies are for a
minimum period of ten years and the insurer is carrying on a
life insurance business in Thailand. If the policy includes a
savings plan which provides an annual return to the policy
holder exceeding 20% of the annual premium, the entire
premium will be non-deductible.
Deposits with banks in the type similar to life insurance for a
minimum deposit term of ten years are allowed as a
deduction in the amount up to Baht 100,000 in each tax year.
However, these deposits together with the above qualified life
insurance premiums and the health insurance premiums
referred to below must not exceed Baht 100,000 in each tax
year.
In addition, the amount paid, up to a maximum of Baht 10,000
for a life insurance premium for the taxpayer’s spouse who
does not earn income is also allowed providing their marital

PwC Thailand I Thai Tax 2023/24 Booklet
8
status exists throughout the tax year.
• A health insurance premium, up to a maximum of Baht
25,000, paid by a taxpayer to a life or non-life insurance
company in Thailand for his/her own health is allowed as a
deduction. However, the deduction for this premium together
with the life insurance premiums and deposits with banks in
the type similar to life insurance, referred to above, must not
exceed Baht 100,000 in total.
A health insurance premium, up to a maximum of Baht
15,000, paid to a life or non-life insurance company in
Thailand for the taxpayer's parents or the parents of the
spouse of the taxpayer is allowed as a deduction.
• For the purpose of encouraging long-term savings for
security upon retirement, allowances are granted for
investments in the following funds and pension life insurance,
whereby a taxpayer is entitled to invest in one fund or several
funds, subject to a maximum amount of Baht 500,000 in total
for each tax year.
- Qualified pension life insurance premiums paid to a Thai
insurer in an amount not exceeding 15% of assessable
income received which is subject to income tax, with a
maximum of Baht 200,000.
- A contribution to a registered provident fund in an amount
not exceeding 15% of the wage with a maximum of Baht
500,000.
- An investment in a retirement mutual fund in an amount
not exceeding 30% of assessable income received which
is subject to income tax, with a maximum of Baht
500,000.
- An investment in the national savings fund in the actual
amount, with a maximum of Baht 500,000.
- An investment in a super savings fund in an amount not
exceeding 30% of the assessable income received which

PwC Thailand I Thai Tax 2023/24 Booklet
9
is subject to income tax with a maximum of Baht 200,000
in any tax year.
• Mortgage interest incurred for the purchase or construction of
a residential building in Thailand may be deducted up to
maximum of Baht 100,000.
• Expenses paid by the taxpayer or spouse for antenatal care
and child delivery up to Baht 60,000 for each pregnancy.
• A contribution to the government’s social security fund may
also be deducted.

 

And then there is also donations

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[JimHuaHin]

I have waded through 50-odd pages of comments here, thus far, and been impressed with some of the detailed posts, as well an the large number of confused/contradictory posts.

 

I have a couple of questions, which I am not sure have been covered yet.

 

Firstly, when the Thai Revenue Department refers to foreign income from the current year, are they referring to the Thai tax year (1 October to 30 September), a calendar year (eg 2023), a 12-month period, or the foreign tax year (in my case, from Australia, 1 June to 31 July)?

 

Secondly, when the Thai Revenue Department refers to income, are they referring to "total income" or "taxable income"?  In many countries, including Australia and Thailand, tax payers are able to claim certain tax deductions/offsets (for, example personal deductions (supporting a spouse, elderly parents, children attending educational institutions, etc) and work related deductions (travel, computer/phone, work-related books/journals, home office, etc.)).  The value of these deductations are substracted from your "total income" to arrive at a figure of your "taxable income".

 

Finally, the big unknown, precisely what data with your home country, or the foreign country where you pay tax, be providing to the Thai Revenue Department?  Ones full tax report/return, or just "total income" and/or "taxable income" and how much tax one paid?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

[freeworld]

15 minutes ago, JimHuaHin said:

I have waded through 50-odd pages of comments here, thus far, and been impressed with some of the detailed posts, as well an the large number of confused/contradictory posts.

 

I have a couple of questions, which I am not sure have been covered yet.

 

Firstly, when the Thai Revenue Department refers to foreign income from the current year, are they referring to the Thai tax year (1 October to 30 September), a calendar year (eg 2023), a 12-month period, or the foreign tax year (in my case, from Australia, 1 June to 31 July)?

 

Secondly, when the Thai Revenue Department refers to income, are they referring to "total income" or "taxable income"?  In many countries, including Australia and Thailand, tax payers are able to claim certain tax deductions/offsets (for, example personal deductions (supporting a spouse, elderly parents, children attending educational institutions, etc) and work related deductions (travel, computer/phone, work-related books/journals, home office, etc.)).  The value of these deductations are substracted from your "total income" to arrive at a figure of your "taxable income".

 

Finally, the big unknown, precisely what data with your home country, or the foreign country where you pay tax, be providing to the Thai Revenue Department?  Ones full tax report/return, or just "total income" and/or "taxable income" and how much tax one paid?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

1) Thai tax year

2) Taxable income

3) If one has paid taxes on the income in ones home country, one can apply and get a tax residence certificate for each tax year in the home country to offset paying taxes in Thailand.

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

The allowances really need to be factored into consideration

 

The taxable income is not the 12500 example.

 

TAXABLE INCOME = Assessable Income - deductions - allowances

I agree but allowances (Both in Thailand & the UK) depend on personal circumstances so I deliberately left them out to try to answer the question about how you could be liable to Tax on your Private Pension in Thailand, despite it already being assessed for Tax in the UK, as simply as possible.

 

If I was to do it for me personally, I'm eligible to 60K Single Person Allowance & 25K Health Insurance allowance = 85K, so tax on the 560Kb could be..

   - First 235K (150K + 85K) taxed at 0% = 0

   - Next 150K taxed at 5% = 7,500b

   - Remaining 175K taxed at 10% = 17,500b

 Total = 25,000b Tax

 

 

 

[Negita43]

This topic is becoming very cumbersome to read (although of course very important) so apologies if this question has come up before.

In the UK they have 2 special "wrappers" for money, one of which is an ISA - ISA's allow up to 20K each to be invetsed (money or stocks) and all income and  gains are tax free so how does that fit into this new system?

The other is a SIPP (self invested Pension) - money taken out from this scheme is taxed at (I believe) 25% same question as above - how does that fit into the proposed regulations?

[Rampant Rabbit]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

It all depends on how the agreement is applied... 

 

E.g. A very simple example, you have a private pension of £12,500 pa (Approx 560,000b) which would generate no Tax as it's < the £12,570 Personal Taxation Allowance but your PTA in Thailand is 150,000 (Ignoring additional allowances), in a worse case scenario you could be liable to tax on all of it when you transfer it to Thailand . 

   - First 150,000 taxed at 0% = 0

   - Next 150,000 taxed at 5% = 7,500

   - Next 200,000 taxed at 10% = 20,000

  - Remaining 60,000 taxed at 15% = 9,000

Total Tax = 36,500b pa

But then again read  below from the tax  depts Thai website , the UK tax is  zero they should  apply that rate  according to them   as thats the better rate. I for one will certainly bring in no more than 150k and live of my Wifes  income if they start this stupidity   .https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.