Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[beammeup]

As I said 100 pages ago, this gift thing needs more clarity. As does credit cards.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

If they go beyond taxing remittances, and ramp it up to tax assessments on global income, then many middle-income retirees and long-stay (including many of those married to Thais) will probably leave. But maybe that's what the country's rulers want? To get rid of the farang kee nok? However, this sort of tax grab on 'foreign residents' won't pull in much money, except for a little from those who are anchored here (those who spent all their savings on a house/condo, or can't abandon their Thai family). The rich foreigners who 'live' here don't pay tax - anywhere (aside from US Citizens). They typically have at least three residential properties to ensure they are never 6 months in any single jurisdiction. So they will enjoy the  4-5 month Thai 'winter' in their condo in Phuket, then spend March - June in the Algarve, and finally, July through October relaxing through summer in their condo in the United States or Canada. Or, if they want to stay in Thailand longer, they will get a "Wealthy Pensioner" visa that - for now, at least - purports to exclude income tax as one of its perks.

Exactly what the wife and I will be doing if they hit me with income taxes on the money I get as a pension plus the savings I have accumulated through working for 40 years (and left after an Aust divorce). I do not quite have the money to have 3+ properties in different locations (wish I did though). But with the cost of living being so cheap in neighbouring countries who do not tax incoming money from Expats, we might just buy a cheap place here (in wife's name) and make sure we stay no more than 179 days a year.  If/when things change if/when they realise the net effect of this move (for Expats) will be a loss of money, then we could always come back for longer.  Planning is all up in the air right now though - we must wait and see how things pan out - I sure hopep they pull this back and leave our money alone. 2024 will clearly be a very pivotal year for our lives in Thailand. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

24 minutes ago, beammeup said:

As I said 100 pages ago, this gift thing needs more clarity. As does credit cards.

A lot of things are waiting for 'clarity' - not just Expat affecting things - Thais who work overseas or have savings accounts overseas, and so many others.

[Klonko]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

This is from the PriceWaterhouse-Coopers 2022-23 Thailand tax Booklet. Note under 'maintenance income' as gift it makes no provision for gifts originating ex-Thailand. Page4.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-2022-23-booklet.pdf

I have not found any indication that my foreign remittances to my wife are excluded from the gift exemption. It is not a loophole if the remittances are not transferred back to me, not used to purchase assets in my name, and <50% of joint living expenses are funded from the remittances. It is not my money anymore. If Thailand will exclude foreign remittances from the gift exemption, I have plan B in place.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Klonko

[KannikaP]

13 minutes ago, Klonko said:

I have not found any indication that my foreign remittances to my wife are excluded from the gift exemption. It is not a loophole if the remittances are not transferred back to me, not used to purchase assets in my name, and <50% of joint living expenses are funded from the remittances. It is not my money anymore. If Thailand will exclude foreign remittances from the gift exemption, I have plan B in place.

 

 

Which is?????

[The Cyclist]

42 minutes ago, Klonko said:

I have not found any indication that my foreign remittances to my wife are excluded from the gift exemption. It is not a loophole if the remittances are not transferred back to me, not used to purchase assets in my name, and <50% of joint living expenses are funded from the remittances. It is not my money anymore. If Thailand will exclude foreign remittances from the gift exemption, I have plan B in place.

 

 

 

If it was a bona fide method of avoiding tax, all the tax Lawyers, accountants, UTube experts would be shouting it from the rooftops.

 

" Don't panic people, nothing to worry about, just gift your wife / boyfriend / girlfriend / next door neighbour your foreign income from  01 January 2024 "

 

Don't worry. You wont need a Plan B, until you get caught.

[Yumthai]

35 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

" Don't panic people, nothing to worry about, just gift your wife / boyfriend / girlfriend / next door neighbour your foreign income from  01 January 2024 "

That's what I do and will keep doing until I'm officially informed about a change and see that change is concretely implemented and enforced.

 

Being prepared having a plan B, C or Z is one thing, I personally won't apply anything beforehand.

 

[Steve2UK]

I've been doing my level best to grasp/decide what to do......

To keep this query simple:

1] I'm a longtime Thailand resident - since 2006

2] UK passport holder - retired long since (age 73 & counting) living in Thailand on retirement visa

3] Never involved in/registered for Thai tax

4] Rented out UK property & occasionally transfered proceeds to Thai bank account for living expenses etc

5] Since (2 years ago) sold UK property and now want to send sale proceeds to Thailand bank account for use here

 

Query:

Given proposed Thai RD changes, should I move the money into Thai bank account before/by 31 December 2023 - or wait till after 1 January 2024 (i.e. when Thai revenue changes dust may have settled  and it's 'reportedly' [currently] pre-threshold income & [if so] thus not Thai-taxable)?

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Steve2UK said:

I've been doing my level best to grasp/decide what to do......

To keep this query simple:

1] I'm a longtime Thailand resident - since 2006

2] UK passport holder - retired long since (age 73 & counting) living in Thailand on retirement visa

3] Never involved in/registered for Thai tax

4] Rented out UK property & occasionally transfered proceeds to Thai bank account for living expenses etc

5] Since (2 years ago) sold UK property and now want to send sale proceeds to Thailand bank account for use here

 

Query:

Given proposed Thai RD changes, should I move the money into Thai bank account before/by 31 December 2023 - or wait till after 1 January 2024 (i.e. when Thai revenue changes dust may have settled  and it's 'reportedly' [currently] pre-threshold income & [if so] thus not Thai-taxable)?

 

The simplest way would be to transfer before 31 December but if you don't, it shouldn't really matter since you can prove that money was earned prior to 31 December 2023.

[Klonko]

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If it was a bona fide method of avoiding tax, all the tax Lawyers, accountants, UTube experts would be shouting it from the rooftops.

 

" Don't panic people, nothing to worry about, just gift your wife / boyfriend / girlfriend / next door neighbour your foreign income from  01 January 2024 "

 

Don't worry. You wont need a Plan B, until you get caught.

Tax exempt gifts will not be sufficient to cover all expenses and also rely on the trustyworthiness of the beneficiary. Not everybody wants to purchase sizeable assets  in somebody else's name. Therefore, gifts are only a partial solution and not a viable route for everybody. In my case, I was lucky to expand my Christmas vacation and will transfer a few mio THB this year under the 179 days rule. No taxable income in the next few years. Worst case (1) I can transfer money with 100% offsetting DTA credit or proof of prior savings, but I prefer not to file tax returns and discuss source of funds and DTA with Thai RD. Worst case (2) gifts are not exempted from 2024 retroactively and we may have to pay <5% tax on the gifts until such new tax ruling.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Klonko

[Danderman123]

So... the more money I make in 2024, the greater my incentive to only stay in Thailand for 179 days, and the more money available for me to travel.

 

That sounds like a no-brainer.

[Danderman123]

6 hours ago, Steve2UK said:

I've been doing my level best to grasp/decide what to do......

To keep this query simple:

1] I'm a longtime Thailand resident - since 2006

2] UK passport holder - retired long since (age 73 & counting) living in Thailand on retirement visa

3] Never involved in/registered for Thai tax

4] Rented out UK property & occasionally transfered proceeds to Thai bank account for living expenses etc

5] Since (2 years ago) sold UK property and now want to send sale proceeds to Thailand bank account for use here

 

Query:

Given proposed Thai RD changes, should I move the money into Thai bank account before/by 31 December 2023 - or wait till after 1 January 2024 (i.e. when Thai revenue changes dust may have settled  and it's 'reportedly' [currently] pre-threshold income & [if so] thus not Thai-taxable)?

 

What is the downside of transferring your funds before January 1?

[kuma]

On 12/10/2023 at 11:13 AM, Morch said:

 

Yeah, that's where I am now, in terms of thinking.

Plus all this hopping about is maybe more fitting for those who aren't married, no families here, no pets. house etc.

Unless one is a very high earner, it doesn't make sense and would cost more (not to mention the trouble).

Not happy about being forced to pay, but such is life. Even relocating to some other destination comes with extra costs, probably a few years worth of new tax requirement payments.

 

As Roy Orbison said, 'You bite the bullet, then you chew it'.

 

Anyway, if it would turn out to be a disaster scaring masses of foreigners away, it wil eventually be amended.

 

As was mentioned much earlier in the thread by an OP, this could cut the legs out from under the property market, as foreign buyers would have to pay tax on funds imported to buy a condo...that is a large and politically powerful constituency that cannot be too thrilled with this idea

[kuma]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

What is the downside of transferring your funds before January 1?

One that i wonder about is if the funds transferred have to be converted from USD/GBP/EUR etc to THB before Jan 1 as well? I usually bring funds here and they can sit in an account until such time as I want to convert - up to two years. I hope thoise funds are considered already here" and not treated as not yet landed since they have not been converted....

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, kuma said:

One that i wonder about is if the funds transferred have to be converted from USD/GBP/EUR etc to THB before Jan 1 as well? I usually bring funds here and they can sit in an account until such time as I want to convert - up to two years. I hope thoise funds are considered already here" and not treated as not yet landed since they have not been converted....

I can't see for one moment that foreign currency already in the country should be an issue, it's the date of transfer into the country that's important, not the currency..

[jerrymahoney]

13 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Of course it is - that's how it works all over the world.

 

It's refering to money inside Thailand that's already been taxed.

 

Maybe not -- in the US there is a tax-free foreign gift tax provision up to $100,000 per annum or approx. 3 million Thai baht. However that must be strictly reported to the IRS.

 

Foreign Gift Reporting & Penalties

Form 3520 is used to report the existence of a gift, trust, or inheritance received from foreign persons.

 

Many U.S. persons may not be aware of their requirement to file a Form 3520 because they have no income or have no tax return filing requirements. Regardless, the IRS is aggressively enforcing compliance with foreign gift reporting.

 

https://askfrost.com/practice-areas/reporting-foreign-gifts

[ukrules]

I'm owed an amount of money from an ongoing bankruptcy in Japan.

 

Now this is money from about 10 years ago, it's around 1.5 million Baht at the moment, it was far more but the JPY has devalued considerably over the years.

 

Lets say that this Baht doesn't arrive in my account until March 2024 - it's definitely older money and it's not recent profit or recent earnings in any way but it's not been taxed at all which was some time in 2013 so we're going back more than 10 years by the time I get it back.

 

I believe it won't be subject to tax as it's effectively been held in limbo by the Japanese Government bureaucracy for the last 10 years and will be considered 'previous money' under the more recent amendment which stated nothing from before Jan 1, 2024 will be taxed. But it will almost certainly be remitted in 2024.

 

Any thoughts?

I will of course consult a tax advisor at some point during next year when things are clearer after the wire transfer arrives in my account.

 

I will probably be in Thailand for more than 180 days in 2024 and I was in Thailand for more than 180 days every year for about the last 15 years. This amount alone will keep me going for more than a year without needing to remit any additional funds which leaves me with a problem of where to 'park' all the other money I receive each month but I'll figure that out later.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

43 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I'm owed an amount of money from an ongoing bankruptcy in Japan.

 

Now this is money from about 10 years ago, it's around 1.5 million Baht at the moment, it was far more but the JPY has devalued considerably over the years.

 

Lets say that this Baht doesn't arrive in my account until March 2024 - it's definitely older money and it's not recent profit or recent earnings in any way but it's not been taxed at all which was some time in 2013 so we're going back more than 10 years by the time I get it back.

 

I believe it won't be subject to tax as it's effectively been held in limbo by the Japanese Government bureaucracy for the last 10 years and will be considered 'previous money' under the more recent amendment which stated nothing from before Jan 1, 2024 will be taxed. But it will almost certainly be remitted in 2024.

 

Any thoughts?

I will of course consult a tax advisor at some point during next year when things are clearer after the wire transfer arrives in my account.

 

I will probably be in Thailand for more than 180 days in 2024 and I was in Thailand for more than 180 days every year for about the last 15 years. This amount alone will keep me going for more than a year without needing to remit any additional funds which leaves me with a problem of where to 'park' all the other money I receive each month but I'll figure that out later.

 

 

You said it yourself, it's definitely older money hence there will not be an issue. All of this is date driven at the moment so taking a snapshot or valuation at 31 December 2023 should solve any problems.

[newnative]

5 hours ago, kuma said:

As was mentioned much earlier in the thread by an OP, this could cut the legs out from under the property market, as foreign buyers would have to pay tax on funds imported to buy a condo...that is a large and politically powerful constituency that cannot be too thrilled with this idea

As a fromer CEO of Sansiri, you'd think the PM would not be thrilled, either.

[Danderman123]

2 hours ago, ukrules said:

I'm owed an amount of money from an ongoing bankruptcy in Japan.

 

Now this is money from about 10 years ago, it's around 1.5 million Baht at the moment, it was far more but the JPY has devalued considerably over the years.

 

Lets say that this Baht doesn't arrive in my account until March 2024 - it's definitely older money and it's not recent profit or recent earnings in any way but it's not been taxed at all which was some time in 2013 so we're going back more than 10 years by the time I get it back.

 

I believe it won't be subject to tax as it's effectively been held in limbo by the Japanese Government bureaucracy for the last 10 years and will be considered 'previous money' under the more recent amendment which stated nothing from before Jan 1, 2024 will be taxed. But it will almost certainly be remitted in 2024.

 

Any thoughts?

I will of course consult a tax advisor at some point during next year when things are clearer after the wire transfer arrives in my account.

 

I will probably be in Thailand for more than 180 days in 2024 and I was in Thailand for more than 180 days every year for about the last 15 years. This amount alone will keep me going for more than a year without needing to remit any additional funds which leaves me with a problem of where to 'park' all the other money I receive each month but I'll figure that out later.

 

 

In theory, you should be okay.

 

In practice, you may have problems with the Revenue Department when they get around to auditing foreign transfers.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

This is from the PriceWaterhouse-Coopers 2022-23 Thailand tax Booklet. Note under 'maintenance income' as gift it makes no provision for gifts originating ex-Thailand. Page4.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-2022-23-booklet.pdf

The Thai RD will from Jan 1 2024 as default under this new rule, view all money remitted into Thailand as taxable income - in the past it was the exact opposite. What each taxpayer will then have to do, based on Thai RD advices and directions, is to 'decide' if that gift money is not taxable in Thailand. The Thai RD may (hopefully) direct or advise that all gifts ex-Thailand are not taxable income if given to 'xyz' in 'abc' situations, but until then, gifts from overseas will be viewed in their 'default' mode.    

[jerrymahoney]

It seems to me the reason Thai RD has heretofore not made any mention of gifts originating ex-Thailand being free-of-tax would be:

 

1) Foreign gifts are treated the same as domestic gifts i.e. you can import almost half million $US tax free as long as it is gifted as maintenance income, or

 

2) There is no mention of tax-free foreign gifts because in Thailand there IS no such thing as a tax-free foreign gift.
 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, Klonko said:

I have not found any indication that my foreign remittances to my wife are excluded from the gift exemption. It is not a loophole if the remittances are not transferred back to me, not used to purchase assets in my name, and <50% of joint living expenses are funded from the remittances. It is not my money anymore. If Thailand will exclude foreign remittances from the gift exemption, I have plan B in place.

I have not found anything either - but I would seek professional advice first - after Thai RD has provided their 'clarifications and exemptions'. 

There are a LOT of Thais working overseas who send money home as a 'gift' to their Thai family - they are also asking for clarification. The list of people asking for 'clarification' on this matter is very large.

 

Yet again, Thai 'authorities' have jumped in head first and broken their necks on the hidden rocks just below the surface - it is amazing how often that they do this - when a simple 'look and feel' would have shown some of the potential problems - it is almost like it is 'genetic' - they just dont seem to want to know about any potential problems, when they get an idea.  Actually, I do know this one - I just recalled about a mate who was employed as a consultant and in one meeting the Boss sais 'lets do this'. He was about to say something when he realsied that he should not - and no one else said anything contradictatory either - it was just 'accepted'.  Needless to say it was all a cluster***** and the Boss just 'walked away'. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

I'm owed an amount of money from an ongoing bankruptcy in Japan.

 

Now this is money from about 10 years ago, it's around 1.5 million Baht at the moment, it was far more but the JPY has devalued considerably over the years.

 

Lets say that this Baht doesn't arrive in my account until March 2024 - it's definitely older money and it's not recent profit or recent earnings in any way but it's not been taxed at all which was some time in 2013 so we're going back more than 10 years by the time I get it back.

 

I believe it won't be subject to tax as it's effectively been held in limbo by the Japanese Government bureaucracy for the last 10 years and will be considered 'previous money' under the more recent amendment which stated nothing from before Jan 1, 2024 will be taxed. But it will almost certainly be remitted in 2024.

 

Any thoughts?

I will of course consult a tax advisor at some point during next year when things are clearer after the wire transfer arrives in my account.

 

I will probably be in Thailand for more than 180 days in 2024 and I was in Thailand for more than 180 days every year for about the last 15 years. This amount alone will keep me going for more than a year without needing to remit any additional funds which leaves me with a problem of where to 'park' all the other money I receive each month but I'll figure that out later.

 

 

Yes mate - yet another 'situation' that the Thai RD had not considered when they decided to implement this ridiculous new rule - actually, I think they did not consider any situations - judging by the 'inane' announcements they have made since this decision was made in September.

 

Mate - you will need a very good tax accountant when that money arrives from Japan.  Can you put that money into another bank/instituion overseas and wait for all the sh** from the fan to be cleaned up (about a year or two)?

 

  

 

[Eudaimonia]

Guys, I have finally solved the problem caused by Order Paw 161/2566 (ป.161/2566) using Google's AI. Hopefully, this answers all your remaining questions. Google it yourself if you don't believe me.

 

[bugger bognor]

A bit disappointed my estimated 200 pages of crap scaremongering and total delusion on this thread may not reach it's target come on USA expats your dying to pay taxes here get queuing at the tax office beg for your TN get your accountant and documents translated and verified transfer millions of BAHT before the Jan 1st deadline hurry you know it makes sense! still have no takers on my bet of nobody being forced to get a TN number next year or having to submit a tax return here by law I wonder why 😁

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, bugger bognor said:

A bit disappointed my estimated 200 pages of crap

So you only have to post 38 pages worth of the similar.

[beammeup]

1 hour ago, bugger bognor said:

A bit disappointed my estimated 200 pages of crap scaremongering and total delusion on this thread may not reach it's target come on USA expats your dying to pay taxes here get queuing at the tax office beg for your TN get your accountant and documents translated and verified transfer millions of BAHT before the Jan 1st deadline hurry you know it makes sense! still have no takers on my bet of nobody being forced to get a TN number next year or having to submit a tax return here by law I wonder why 😁

If you are not worried about it fine. What are you hanging around this thread like a bad smell for?

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, beammeup said:

If you are not worried about it fine. What are you hanging around this thread like a bad smell for?

 

1. The mental contortions some people are putting themselves through are worth reading for the amusement factor..

 

2. The extrapolation from the initial announcement is worthy of a Thai Soap scriptwriter.

 

3. Whilst being midly amused, I hang around waiting for a definitive announcement from the RD.

 

If anyone is looking for a nice chilled out place to have lunch, I can recommend this place.

 

 

 

I'll let you try and work out where it is, it will stop you fretting about the RD

Edited December 12, 2023 by The Cyclist

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

1. The mental contortions some people are putting themselves through are worth reading for the amusement factor..

 

2. The extrapolation from the initial announcement is worthy of a Thai Soap scriptwriter.

 

3. Whilst being midly amused, I hang around waiting for a definitive announcement from the RD.

 

If anyone is looking for a nice chilled out place to have lunch, I can recommend this place.

 

 

 

I'll let you try and work out where it is, it will stop you fretting about the RD

Nice trip to Khao Yai?