Calls for clarification of new Tax regime which appears to target expat foreign income sources

[ukrules]

33 minutes ago, Cabradelmar said:

It's a debit card so is still considered a remittance for Thai tax purposes

What if you're using your massive overdraft facility on the debit card account?

 

Doesn't that make it a loan?

 

It does.....

[redwood1]

If they raised the VAT a bit that would bring in vastly more money than this tax nonsense....I really dont think they care about the tax money much...I think it more about control, and drowning peoples lives in bureaucracy.....

[Billpro785]

11 hours ago, Lee4Life said:

If Thailand chooses to tax your income then the U.S. can't?

As a US Citizen, you are required to file a US Federal Tax return for every tax year. As the US, and Thailand have a Tax treaty signed in 1996, you can't be double taxed. I highly suggest all US expats go to the IRS website and read the agreement. It is written in plain English and will answer all your questions. 

As I posted in another thread, my accountant, said there is nothing to worry about, and means nothing to you or me. The new Thai tax laws are aimed at attracting bigger businesses to the Kingdom, nothing more. Again read the tax treaty on the IRS website and if still worried talk to a tax expert, and don't listen to the all the fear mongering by the armchair lawyers and so called tax experts here. 

And remember, as US expat living in Thailand you are entitled to the benefits of the IRS's Foreign Earned Income exclusion. Make sure who ever is doing your taxes uses this exclusion. Saves me thousands of dollars every year. 

[Surasak]

7 hours ago, Moonlover said:

The great majority of us don't live here on retirement visas. We live on yearly extensions.

Splitting hairs to make a point? One and the same thing as far as I am concerned, But as you please!

[PingRoundTheWorld]

12 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Totally agree.... up the tax for the elites and raise the VAT by a couple of %

VAT and sales taxes are doing exactly the opposite of reducing inequality. They disproportionally affect low wage earners a lot more than high earners. If inequality is the issue they could start by actually enforcing taxation of the elites.

 

But this isn't about the elites or inequality - it's about votes and handing out 10k to every Thai citizen. Robin hood except they're not going to be able to steal from the rich - it's the middle class (including foreigners) who they're going after. Handing out 10k to every citizen is not going to address inequality - it's just going to encourage inflation and do little else.

 

What they fail to consider/realize is that unlike Thais, expats have a choice - I already get robbed for nearly half my income by my own government - if it comes down to it and they try to force the issues on tax residents then the solution is ugly but simple - stop being a tax resident. Thailand will lose the majority of it's expats, and particularly all of it's high earning expats. Good luck with the economy!

 

P.S. I don't think this will actually happen - they can't be that stupid - but then again... maybe they can.

[xtrnuno41]

 

a move against income inequality

 

Early this year, Srettha stepped down as CEO and president of his family’s company, Sansiri, one of Thailand’s largest property developers with assets worth over 100 billion baht ($2.9 billion). He also transferred all of his shares, reportedly valued at more than 1.2 billion baht ($35 million), in the company to his daughter.

The recipient of an MBA from Claremont Graduate University in the U.S., Srettha led Sansiri to a record profit of over 4 billion baht ($117 million) in 2022.

 

Early Life

Name	Srettha Thavisin
Net Worth	$1.3 billion
Occupation	Politician, Businessman

 

 

Maybe he first would have a look at  him self and then all other wealthy people, as "Red Bull"family, CP and so on and so on.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

10 hours ago, Tom H said:

or you transfer 10M Baht in 2023 to avoid tax for the next 10y?

 

????Ony for the rich (non tax payers) of course

Or you take a break from Thailand for 180 days every few years and transfer a large amount that year, and repeat every few years. When there is a will, there is a way.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

If they raised the VAT a bit that would bring in vastly more money than this tax nonsense....I really dont think they care about the tax money much...I think it more about control, and drowning peoples lives in bureaucracy.....

You are right but Srettha is after quick wins. The idea of taxing foreigners to pay for digital wallets sounds good on the evening news. No one follows up two years later to see it raised little incremental tax and choked off investment. Srettha will be gone by then anyway,

 

10% VAT is the only way to raise substantial revenue and is surely coming but they will make it look like they tried everything else first.

[Metapod]

smaller government and then less tax. nobody likes government but yet always wants the government to be larger and be involved in more things.

 

everything private is more effective. private schools > public schools, private hospitals > public hospitals.

 

every government process has no profit incentive and motivation to be efficient. 

 

stop thinking about how to reward bad government and instead limit government and you dont need to rape and steal from your citizens

[Letseng]

12 hours ago, Lee4Life said:

If Thailand chooses to tax your income then the U.S. can't?

With double taxation treaty you pay in US & in TH the diff. between the 2 countries.

[Neeranam]

14 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

I do not care who is in the govt at this Point I would prefer Thailand get 100 percent of my income taxes instead of the US.

 

The failed state that confiscates a huge chunk of my wages automatically at the source, wasting it on who knows what.

I'm sure many are like you. It's amazing how Yanks  have to pay taxes in the country even when they have left.

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, pedro01 said:

As a non-resident, you are not required to pay taxes on earnings in the UK. That means anything you get paid in the UK is not taxable. You shouldn't be paying tax on your pension.

All my pensions will be taxed at source in the UK. Then the "Tax Free" income in the UK may be taxable in Thailand. Then a lump for visa requirements may be taxable as it is brought in.

 

HMRC said (2018) even if the income is clearly not taxable under the Treaty, The other state may still require you to pay and then claim it back. So you would need a "float" (which may be taxed again) of a few thousand around to cope with the mis-match. Then the tax years do not match April to April Vs Calendar Year, which would extend things. 

 

It will be no fun!  Unlikely to be there continuously anyway, the visas are only enhanced visitor visas , For someone that would be there probably perhaps spend 260 days a year max, it is unlikely to be worth all the hassle. 178 days max view going forward..?

I would never say never, that I would stay a full year, but the rumors of them maybe extending insurance requirements on other visas, there may be only a few years of a window for this to happen.

[Woof999]

15 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

I do not care who is in the govt at this Point I would prefer Thailand get 100 percent of my income taxes instead of the US.

I wouldn't mind paying full income tax here if I actually received anything for it.

[StayinThailand2much]

3 hours ago, pp00 said:

Thailand is not a failed state??? It's ok to not like the US but you are talking about supercorrupt Thailand and its moron leaders...what is 3. world  Thailand of not a failed state???

Never mind the corruption. But also the large number of governments (more than 50), constitutions (20), and military coups (22) in the past ninety years, which is notoriously unstable, even in comparison with most other countries in Asia.

Edited September 26, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[xtrnuno41]

is coming with Thailand in talks with economic powers such as the European Union to put in place new trade and investment pacts.

 

 

See where it comes from.

Specifically mentioned E(f***)U.

I wondered why Thai land had this new thing, but now it is proven E(f***)U.

Now it makes more sense.

Data will show, more people on retirement, big group in EU. That group mostly have houses and because EU is <deleted> and getting worse, so they are thinking to move.

Data shows , Thailand is populair. So there we go, we force Thailand to tax foreigners.

 

As houses have risen in price and yet not taxed here in selling, they thought of a way to tax, when you are selling. However not yet working (2027). So you MUST stay or take a big pay in tax of house selling from 2027. And Thailand will fill the gap until 2027.

As there are many leaving already, data, they want it to make it already annoying for you and there it is, where Thailand is stepping in. Probably a part will go to EU back in arrangements. 

If you stay here and die, then they will find more money, as they will tax your inheritance higher. And if your family is selling , ktsjing more money. Selling tax and inheritance tax. OK you dont care about it anymore. You finally have rest.

 

"My" country is really hunting for every euro cent. We are now third on petrol list with highest price. Luckily, well they say, the price raise in January is off, otherwise we would have been number 2 on the list.

On petrol there is a tax to oil company and if you buy then again there is a tax for you on the price and the tax paid by company.

They do the same with gas. Half of the price of them is tax !!

They raised tax on daily goods from 6  to 9 %. Luxury goods 20 to 21 %.

When the EU started, the prices were doubled. 

The government cheated  and destroyed 30000 people with embarrassment rules and punishments on allowances. Families splittend and in big debts. They are still "working" on it to correct some .

Other people have torn houses, due to earthquakes of winning gas, salt or a train passing by every minute. Pay back ? Wait a "minute".

Now we have inflation, due to Ukraine, they say. Prices go up and will never ever be back as once before.

 

Sons and daughters have to live with you longer time, as we have NO (rental) houses.

And they have to wait longer as we have 100 thousands "refugees"who will go FIRST!

I never use the word, but now OMG, OMG.

What ever happened to "my" country?

This was just a tiny listing,as it is way more bigger.

 

Now I understand why Thailand has this new <deleted>. As "my"country is a head member.

This article shows where it came from. I was at first flabbergasted, but now it is al clear to me. Same as changing rules in visa.  

 

 

 

[xtrnuno41]

is coming with Thailand in talks with economic powers such as the European Union to put in place new trade and investment pacts.

 

 

See where it comes from.

Specifically mentioned E(f***)U.

I wondered why Thai land had this new thing, but now it is proven E(f***)U.

Now it makes more sense.

Data will show, more people on retirement, big group in EU. That group mostly have houses and because EU is <deleted> and getting worse, so they are thinking to move.

Data shows , Thailand is populair. So there we go, we force Thailand to tax foreigners.

 

As houses have risen in price and yet not taxed here in selling, they thought of a way to tax, when you are selling. However not yet working (2027). So you MUST stay or take a big pay in tax of house selling from 2027. And Thailand will fill the gap until 2027.

As there are many leaving already, data, they want it to make it already annoying for you and there it is, where Thailand is stepping in. Probably a part will go to EU back in arrangements. 

If you stay here and die, then they will find more money, as they will tax your inheritance higher. And if your family is selling , ktsjing more money. Selling tax and inheritance tax. OK you dont care about it anymore. You finally have rest.

 

"My" country is really hunting for every euro cent. We are now third on petrol list with highest price. Luckily, well they say, the price raise in January is off, otherwise we would have been number 2 on the list.

On petrol there is a tax to oil company and if you buy then again there is a tax for you on the price and the tax paid by company.

They do the same with gas. Half of the price of them is tax !!

They raised tax on daily goods from 6  to 9 %. Luxury goods 20 to 21 %.

When the EU started, the prices were doubled. 

The government cheated  and destroyed 30000 people with embarrassment rules and punishments on allowances. Families splittend and in big debts. They are still "working" on it to correct some .

Other people have torn houses, due to earthquakes of winning gas, salt or a train passing by every minute. Pay back ? Wait a "minute".

Now we have inflation, due to Ukraine, they say. Prices go up and will never ever be back as once before.

 

Sons and daughters have to live with you longer time, as we have NO (rental) houses.

And they have to wait longer as we have 100 thousands "refugees"who will go FIRST!

I never use the word, but now OMG, OMG.

What ever happened to "my" country?

This was just a tiny listing,as it is way more bigger.

 

Now I understand why Thailand has this new <deleted>. As "my"country is a head member.

This article shows where it came from. I was at first flabbergasted, but now it is al clear to me. Same as changing rules in visa.  

 

 

 

[Darren8888]

7 hours ago, flexomike said:

you are comparing dollars to baht, no way would you be paying 17,000 dollars tax in Thailand

 

I guess you are mathematically challenge ????, look at the Op's original post. Yes, you would be paying roughly USD 17K in Thailand tax for a small income USD 80k/year.  The key takeaway is Thailand's tax is much more expensive compared to US (with a few exceptions for NYC or Cali residents). 

[French mate]

1 hour ago, Woof999 said:

I wouldn't mind paying full income tax here if I actually received anything for it.

Exactly this.
In fact its that would only allow me to be able to claim a permanent residency, i will glady pay my tax here.
But if they have no benefit of any kind and only extra paperwork at the horizon, i will just do what its take to not pay any income tax in Thailand.
With my situation (married with a thai, having 3 childs, income from am international company i fully control and a permanent place to stay in France) i have many differents way to not be tax eligible in Thailand, and i doubt they will ever be able to close all the holes i could use for that purpose.

Not everyone have the options and  "tax experience" i got. But from what i see posted if they go just for an imposition without any benefits associated, in the grand scheme they will just lose lot more money that what their tax will bring.
But do they really care ?
 

[charmonman]

14 hours ago, ThaiFelix said:

You have no understanding of Thailands approach to decision making.  Usually research is performed on a subject, data is collected, decisions made on the data and an announcement made.  However in Thailand the opposite is true.  Here a brain fart decision and announcement is made first, followed by public outcry which is researched and finally the decision reversed.  This approach is also useful for the government to gauge just how much it can get away with without affecting front row at the trough.

 

A good example a few years ago was the announcement, just as people were climbing into the back of their pickups for the annual run home to Isaan for Songkran, that it was now illegal to tavel in the back of pick-ups.  Obviously, to everybody else, this without notice decision puts a huge spanner in the works for millions of people as all other forms of transport are talken, booked, unavailable etc.  Fortunately one good soul lifting his head from the trough for air, somehow heard the outcry, and possibly concerned the turmoil may affect his revenue stream somewhere, reversed the law just in the nick of time and they all lived happily ever after (well,  sort of).

I said it would be a good thing, not that I expected it to happen.

[Captain Monday]

3 hours ago, Woof999 said:

I wouldn't mind paying full income tax here if I actually received anything for it.

I basically get nothing for now the way I see it anyway. 

[MartinBangkok]

I have worked and lived in Thailand for 18 years now as a digital nomad. I like Thailand for a number of reasons, but the last 5-6-7 years have given me more and more reasons to dislike Thailand.

 

Blatant discrimination on so many dimensions as a farang, ever increasing nightmare dealing with immigration/labour/revenue beaurocrats and having to witness and accept the endemic corruption at all levels. (I could go on).

 

This latest " tax attack" is the last straw.

 

Pigs will fly and it will snow in Bangkok before I pay 1 (f....ng) satang in tax to Thailand. 

 

I am lucky, I am free as a bird. But I feel sorry for Farangs that are stuck here, and I feel sorry for the Thai people, who are also stuck.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Venom]

19 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

OK Thailand, see ya! For half the year anyway.

Absolutely skip the burning season. It's a win-win ????

[Gknrd]

They are making millions of dollars on the 800K in dividends and interest on the expats now. Don't be to hard on Thailand. They just want the rest of your earnings to tax.. 

[NanLaew]

21 hours ago, webfact said:

On September 15th, the Revenue Department in Thailand issued a clarification stating that from the 1st of January 2024, it planned to tax foreign income on all individuals in the kingdom who have been resident in the country for over 180 days.

What more of a clarification can anyone need?

 

You are 'tax resident' if you are living and breathing inside Thailand for 180 days or more in a year.

 

If your country has a reciprocal (dual) taxation agreement with Thailand, and you have been paying tax in either one but not both, your tax obligations remain unchanged.

 

If you believe that any reciprocal (dual) taxation agreement means that you aren't liable for taxes in either and don't have to do anything, there's a problem with your comprehension.

 

If you think that nobody can tax your pension, either in the country that pays it, or the country where you receive it, that is also a problem with your comprehension.

[NanLaew]

14 hours ago, Moonlover said:

14 hours ago, Surasak said:

I notice you didn't include the last line of the above, which reads as.....It is unclear at this point how this will apply to foreigners living in Thailand on a retirement visa.

The great majority of us don't live here on retirement visas. We live on yearly extensions.

And you know what retirement visa holders and yearly extension holders have in common?

 

Living and breathing.

 

Whether it is obtained from an embassy or consulate outside Thailand or from an Immigration Office inside Thailand, the immigration entitlement of a person living in Thailand has no bearing on tax their liability. None whatsoever.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, MartinBangkok said:

I have worked and lived in Thailand for 18 years now as a digital nomad. I like Thailand for a number of reasons, but the last 5-6-7 years have given me more and more reasons to dislike Thailand.

 

Blatant discrimination on so many dimensions as a farang, ever increasing nightmare dealing with immigration/labour/revenue beaurocrats and having to witness and accept the endemic corruption at all levels. (I could go on).

 

This latest " tax attack" is the last straw.

 

Pigs will fly and it will snow in Bangkok before I pay 1 (f....ng) satang in tax to Thailand. 

 

I am lucky, I am free as a bird. But I feel sorry for Farangs that are stuck here, and I feel sorry for the Thai people, who are also stuck.

 

Cheers

 

 

If ever there was a candidate for the perpetual door warning...

 

Mind how you fly.

[Puccini]

13 hours ago, Schuimpge said:

To end all confusion, the correct interpretation is: "The law is aimed at all Thai tax-residents with overseas funds/income/earnings"...

Not quite.

 

The Revenue Department Order being discussed here is not a law.

 

The order is guideline for Revenue Department officials.

[Puccini]

9 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Still not clear, whether:

 

1. They intend to tax a second time already (in other countries) taxed income, and

2. What they define as 'income' (e.g. will they just slap a tax on all incoming funds, or not)?

3. If 2.) how to claim back such a tax if one doesn't have income in Thailand.

1. Not for assessable income earned in countries with which Thailand has a Double Taxation Agreement. For other countries, the existing law remains in place and the new Revenue Department Order merely explains its correct application. 

 

2. No

[Puccini]

9 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

1) In the earlier reporting I read an article/screeenshot in some thread here, that Capital Gains & Dividends already taxed abroad in one of the countries with a DTA would be exempt from this new legislation. Is that still the case? 

2) How till this be enforced, in practice? Many of us, me at least, don't declare any tax in this country and thus don't carry a tax number. Will they simply put a % tax on all the international transfers into my Thai bank account? It seems like a big undertaking, operationally, for a short set of time. 

1. Yes

2. No.

[grego49]

17 hours ago, ukrules said:

Exactly, they're attempting to override an act of parliament with a memo - surely that will ruffle more than a few feathers in the parliament?

 

It is even legal to do this?

Remember they still have their training wheels on,5555