ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[scubascuba3]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

Looks like common sense blackout. What different countries? How were they transferred there?

We know loads of Thais were taken, why would it only be them?

[Morch]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

So is indiscriminate of bombing in residential areas, but it doesn't stop the Israelis doing it.

 

Yes, those lightly armed Gaza soldiers did surprisingly well against the much vaunted Israeli military, even capturing and burning tanks and taking the crews hostage. Perhaps the Israelis are only effective against unarmed civilians that they can intimidate.

 

Whenever this ends, there is going to be some harsh language behind Israeli doors concerning the complete intelligence failure and the initial lack of resistance to those lightly armed soldiers.

 

That's a common misconception. Israel does not, generally, carry out indiscriminate bombings. That there are civilian casualties is a fact, but the way the attacks are carried is, for the most part, in accordance with international law. What you imagines the rules to be, and what they are, is not the same.

 

Are you trying to claim much of the Palestinian attack did not intentionally target unarmed civilians? With all the available horrid footage about? And taking pride in it too? Well well....

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Except I do not say 'Israel good'. On the contrary, I agree that many of it's polices are 'bad', or at the very least self-harming in the long term. I've had no kind words for Israeli leadership, on this topic and others. What you can't seem to accept is that I do not engage in wholesale, ignorant hatred - vs. any side. I never ever said 'Gaza bad'. I actually bother to make the distinction between Hamas and the local populace. Any other things you'd like to make up?

 

 

Fair enough, but I will never support Israel in it's illegal occupation and collective punishment of millions. After all, Israelis voted those governments into power so they must share the responsibility. If they get a bloody nose from time to time it's only to be expected, given the way they treat Palestinians.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

We know loads of Thais were taken, why would it only be them?

There was a single report about Thai and Philippines citizens taken captive. What are you on about?

[Morch]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Fair enough, but I will never support Israel in it's illegal occupation and collective punishment of millions. After all, Israelis voted those governments into power so they must share the responsibility. If they get a bloody nose from time to time it's only to be expected, given the way they treat Palestinians.

I have no argument about Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank being 'bad'. You're welcome to check all my posts on the matter. As for collective punishment, I agree it's not nice, and in some instances not in accordance with international law, but what are the realistic options? (this is with the Gaza blockade in mind).

 

Israelis vote for their governments, true. One reason, other than changing demographics, the moderates do not get enough support lies with disillusionment vs. the Palestinians. Things do not happen in a vacuum as someone else posted earlier.

 

For that matter, the Palestinian people do not seem motivated enough to replace their own leaderships. Or even seriously push for elections. Do they get a free pass on that point? 

 

[scubascuba3]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

There was a single report about Thai and Philippines citizens taken captive. What are you on about?

You need to do more extensive reading

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Morch said:

 

That's a common misconception. Israel does not, generally, carry out indiscriminate bombings. That there are civilian casualties is a fact, but the way the attacks are carried is, for the most part, in accordance with international law. What you imagines the rules to be, and what they are, is not the same.

 

Are you trying to claim much of the Palestinian attack did not intentionally target unarmed civilians? With all the available horrid footage about? And taking pride in it too? Well well....

If Gaza civilians are killed by Israeli bombs, it's indiscriminate. International law or not, it's a war crime to kill civilians.

 

You would have to ask them if they intentionally target Israeli civilians. I'm not there to know, and I have not seen such footage.

Innocent Gaza civilians suffer every time the Israelis bomb residential areas in Gaza. Plenty of children have been killed in such attacks on a defenseless population. They have no anti aircraft defenses.

[FruitPudding]

19 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I know where it’s being reported but Thorgal is making statements purporting yo be facts, he needs to provide links.

 

 

If you see something on TV, it's not possible to link it.

 

A poster could just say, "BBC just reported xyz...."

 

Is that acceptable to you, O' Supreme Scholar of AseanNow?

[BarraMarra]

Considering Mossad is supposed to be one of the world's top information gatherers they didn't see this coming, did they?. Is it not a war crime to cause suffering inflicted on civilians to interrupt infrastructure such as cutting off Electrical supplies to another country?

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

I have no argument about Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank being 'bad'. You're welcome to check all my posts on the matter. As for collective punishment, I agree it's not nice, and in some instances not in accordance with international law, but what are the realistic options? (this is with the Gaza blockade in mind).

 

Israelis vote for their governments, true. One reason, other than changing demographics, the moderates do not get enough support lies with disillusionment vs. the Palestinians. Things do not happen in a vacuum as someone else posted earlier.

 

For that matter, the Palestinian people do not seem motivated enough to replace their own leaderships. Or even seriously push for elections. Do they get a free pass on that point? 

 

If I was born a Gazan, I'm pretty sure I'd be supporting anyone that wants to attack the Israelis. Do you have any idea what those unfortunate civilians suffer, or is it all right with you because they are just Palestinians?

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

You need to do more extensive reading

You make a claim about many people being taken away. When questioned you tell others to do more reading.

Looking forward to your information about all the people taken to different countries.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Considering Mossad is supposed to be one of the world's top information gatherers they didn't see this coming, did they?. Is it not a war crime to cause suffering inflicted on civilians to interrupt infrastructure such as cutting off Electrical supplies to another country?

IMO everything about the occupation is illegal, but when has Israel ever cared about that? Cutting off electricity is collective punishment and that is definitely a crime.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

You make a claim about many people being taken away. When questioned you tell others to do more reading.

Looking forward to your information about all the people taken to different countries.

If you insert "from" into his sentence it makes more sense.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If Gaza civilians are killed by Israeli bombs, it's indiscriminate. International law or not, it's a war crime to kill civilians.

 

You would have to ask them if they intentionally target Israeli civilians. I'm not there to know, and I have not seen such footage.

Innocent Gaza civilians suffer every time the Israelis bomb residential areas in Gaza. Plenty of children have been killed in such attacks on a defenseless population. They have no anti aircraft defenses.

No, it isn't. I know it sounds callous, but that's not how international law on such matters work. So long as it can be demonstrated that the attack was discriminate, the target reasonably identified as a legit one, it's pretty much ok. There are limitations and curbs regarding civilians present, but ultimately, unless you bomb them knowingly, and intentionally, it flies. You may complain about such international laws basically being created to fit the more industrialized, weaponized, richer countries - but that's the way it is.

 

There was such footage linked on this topic. Same on many other media and social media outlets. Not buying the feigned ignorance.

 

As for Hamas not investing in air defenses, but in rockets, or preferring to construct attack tunnels and military bunkers rather than provide the populace with bomb shelters - take it up with their leadership. Choices, again.

[scubascuba3]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

You make a claim about many people being taken away. When questioned you tell others to do more reading.

Looking forward to your information about all the people taken to different countries.

What do you know? nothing it would seem, lots of soldiers and civilians taken hostage including Thais and what other country

[MrMojoRisin]

38 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There is no land currently being stolen from the Gaza Strip. And as yesterday's attack demonstrates, killing unarmed civilians is not something the Palestinians refrain from doing.

 

The blockade of the Gaza Strip came about in response to Hamas attacks and agenda. It is also maintained by Egypt. Whenever there's a lull in hostilities, the blockade is eased. This usually doesn't hold very long, though.

 

The Israelis reference the Holocaust, the Palestinians reference the Nakba.

 

Genocide would imply much much less Palestinians about. That's not the case.

[stevenl]

37 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Must be a news blackout, lots of hostages taken different countries

 

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you insert "from" into his sentence it makes more sense.

That's because the post concerning this omitted something.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If I was born a Gazan, I'm pretty sure I'd be supporting anyone that wants to attack the Israelis. Do you have any idea what those unfortunate civilians suffer, or is it all right with you because they are just Palestinians?

But you're not a Gazan, so maybe you could be expected to have a wider view of things. As for that, not all Gazans are Hamas members, not all even support the Hamas. And even those that are do not necessarily welcome the surely to come retaliation. It's a wee bit more complicated than that, eh?

 

Your last line is just another in a long one of low class jibes. Please find a single post in which I reveled in Palestinian suffering, advocated killing civilians and such.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO everything about the occupation is illegal, but when has Israel ever cared about that? Cutting off electricity is collective punishment and that is definitely a crime.

The Palestinian fired rockets at the power station, temporarily disrupting operations. Their electricity was cut after the attack.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

No, it isn't. I know it sounds callous, but that's not how international law on such matters work. So long as it can be demonstrated that the attack was discriminate, the target reasonably identified as a legit one, it's pretty much ok. There are limitations and curbs regarding civilians present, but ultimately, unless you bomb them knowingly, and intentionally, it flies. You may complain about such international laws basically being created to fit the more industrialized, weaponized, richer countries - but that's the way it is.

 

There was such footage linked on this topic. Same on many other media and social media outlets. Not buying the feigned ignorance.

 

As for Hamas not investing in air defenses, but in rockets, or preferring to construct attack tunnels and military bunkers rather than provide the populace with bomb shelters - take it up with their leadership. Choices, again.

In a war in a different country when civilians die in a missile attack the same people that are excusing the Israelis for doing with bombs that are jumping up and down about it. Seems that it depends on which side one agrees with as to whether it's OK to kill civilians or not.

 

It's pretty simple about bombing in residential areas of Gaza- if one bombs them civilians will die, no matter how "discriminate" the attack is. Ergo, if bombing in Gaza city, it is expected that civilians will die. Is that a crime? IMO yes, but apparently you can excuse it. After all, what's a few dead children to worry about if they are Palestinians?

 

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

More hot air. Does the Palestinian side subscribe to such steps, with assurances that there will be no more attacks such as this? Or while acknowledging Israel's rights? Coming up with simplistic statements is no replacement for reality.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

But you're not a Gazan, so maybe you could be expected to have a wider view of things. As for that, not all Gazans are Hamas members, not all even support the Hamas. And even those that are do not necessarily welcome the surely to come retaliation. It's a wee bit more complicated than that, eh?

 

Your last line is just another in a long one of low class jibes. Please find a single post in which I reveled in Palestinian suffering, advocated killing civilians and such.

My last line was a serious question given your statements about how it's OK under international law to kill civilians if the bombing in a residential area is "discriminate".

[herfiehandbag]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

His current coalition won the popular vote by a thread. And that's with his right-wing, religious parties partners having high voter turnout vs. the opposition's (especially Arab parties) organization. It could have pretty easily been otherwise, or yet another draw (like the previous 4-5 times he failed to win a majority). The current government pole figures are very lame.

 

He's also seen a divisive figure, and (widely) as an untrustworthy one (his main coalition partner described him as "A liar, and a son of liar", just saying...).

 

That's without mentioning his ongoing court cases.

 

I don't know why being elected ( even if it is only just!)

After all both Hamas and Abas are in the 17th year of their 4 year elected term.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In a war in a different country when civilians die in a missile attack the same people that are excusing the Israelis for doing with bombs that are jumping up and down about it. Seems that it depends on which side one agrees with as to whether it's OK to kill civilians or not.

 

It's pretty simple about bombing in residential areas of Gaza- if one bombs them civilians will die, no matter how "discriminate" the attack is. Ergo, if bombing in Gaza city, it is expected that civilians will die. Is that a crime? IMO yes, but apparently you can excuse it. After all, what's a few dead children to worry about if they are Palestinians?

 

 

 

I didn't get what you were on in your muddled first paragraph, sorry.

 

As for the "pretty simple" bit - that's your take and it's fine. It's just not how international laws treat such things. I am not 'excusing' it but explaining a point which you're obviously not aware of.

 

And kindly stop with your vile personal insinuations.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

But you're not a Gazan, so maybe you could be expected to have a wider view of things. As for that, not all Gazans are Hamas members, not all even support the Hamas. And even those that are do not necessarily welcome the surely to come retaliation. It's a wee bit more complicated than that, eh?

 

 

No it's not complicated at all. If I was living under occupation and collective punishment in my own country I'd want to strike back at the oppressors.

In France, the resistance were heroes, but strangely it seems that it's different if the Resistance are Palestinian.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My last line was a serious question given your statements about how it's OK under international law to kill civilians if the bombing in a residential area is "discriminate".

It was an explanation on how international law works. I did not formulate these rules. I do not act on them. People dies in wars. Civilians die in wars. Children die in wars. It's not ok. It's often shocking. That's how wars are. I do not believe you're not aware of this.

[MrMojoRisin]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

More hot air. Does the Palestinian side subscribe to such steps, with assurances that there will be no more attacks such as this? Or while acknowledging Israel's rights? Coming up with simplistic statements is no replacement for reality.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No it's not complicated at all. If I was living under occupation and collective punishment in my own country I'd want to strike back at the oppressors.

In France, the resistance were heroes, but strangely it seems that it's different if the Resistance are Palestinian.

Many may want to strike back, in reality, almost everywhere, only a minority are active militants etc. This applies to the Gaza Strip and to the French Resistance. Did the French Resistance make it a habit to kill German civilians? Women? Children? I don't think so.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I didn't get what you were on in your muddled first paragraph, sorry.

 

As for the "pretty simple" bit - that's your take and it's fine. It's just not how international laws treat such things. I am not 'excusing' it but explaining a point which you're obviously not aware of.

 

And kindly stop with your vile personal insinuations.

 

I wasn't actually insinuating anything about you personally, rather a general question to all that support Israeli attacks on civilians.

 

However, I'll put you on ignore, so I won't be saying anything personally about you again.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

Yet another lazy copy-paste post (think forum rules do not allow this, even).  The current attack was not on occupied territory, but in Israel.

 

And regardless of the nonsense quoted, my comment holds - there is no general Palestinian acceptance of peace (as in dropping claims for the whole of Israel, and ceasing violence) for territory.