180 day rule and filing TAXES

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, jacob29 said:

This sounds like tax evasion, with a very obvious electronic footprint. I find it highly unlikely countries don't have the means of monitoring these currency flows, all electronic methods are surely tracked for money laundering reasons.

 

The use of a foreign credit card in Thailand by a person who is a tax resident in Thailand is definitely not tax evasion.

[ChaiyaTH]

Its so simple, just become a pirate like me and sign zero tax agreement on your ass.

 

If thailand wants to ruin its economy and foreign visitor count even more, or lets say faster, i help by visiting Vietnam more often and longer. Solved.

 

And we all know where that leads to, people eventually not coming back at all.

 

After all the nonsense in the past decade they do not deserve more energy from us with stuff like this.

They will come back on it fast enough when its too late but yes, then its too late. Thats how they lost 70% of the (western) backpackers and digital nomads already too.

 

They are all in vietnam and indonesia while visiting laos and cambodia too, but skipping Thailand. Many of the new generation never even went.

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, jacob29 said:

My expectation is that they will tally foreign income earned *while* you are a Thai tax resident, and any future remittance below that threshold will be considered as income. At least it's the only way I can see it working. Which makes it effectively the same as tax on worldwide income (at least not more), where you can get away with less tax if you never in future bring in more money than you earned abroad.

It's going to be complicated may have to shuffle and put all the taxed pensions in one account. then ring fence the UK tax free bit in a separate account. then only remit using the DTA related pre taxed pensions, as you suggest the will be an approximation of similar taxation..

But I assume for the present, unless urgent need, treat the 180 as max stay, unless funds already pre-positioned when not tax resident.

The other potential mix up is the UK and Thai Tax years being 13 weeks misaligned, depending on which supporting docs may be asked for,

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, UKresonant said:

10 hours ago, jacob29 said:

My expectation is that they will tally foreign income earned *while* you are a Thai tax resident, and any future remittance below that threshold will be considered as income. At least it's the only way I can see it working. Which makes it effectively the same as tax on worldwide income (at least not more), where you can get away with less tax if you never in future bring in more money than you earned abroad.

Expand  

It's going to be complicated may have to shuffle and put all the taxed pensions in one account. then ring fence the UK tax free bit in a separate account

It depends on how you define "Tax Free", HMRC doesn't consider the income you earn below your Personal Tax Allowance as "Tax Free", it considers it taxed at 0% (Nil Rate), so technically you have "Payed" the tax required on it.... Same is true with the 1st £1,000 (soon to be reduced to £500) of Dividend Income & £1,000 of Bank Interest.  

 

So if the Thai Revenue Department views this in the same way then there will be no more Tax to pay on it according to rule 5 on their own website... 

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer. 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

This could be the reason why the original statement said that nationalities covered by a DTA would have no more Tax to pay.  

[jacob29]

8 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The use of a foreign credit card in Thailand by a person who is a tax resident in Thailand is definitely not tax evasion.

Of course not, using cash is not tax evasion either - even though it's commonly used to facilitate it. Under reporting assessable income you believe the tax dept doesn't know about, is tax evasion.

[jacob29]

7 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

They are all in vietnam and indonesia while visiting laos and cambodia too, but skipping Thailand. 

This tax appears less aggressive than both Vietnam and Indonesia, who will simply tax you on worldwide income whether you remit it or not. While not confirmed yet, pretty sure your tax obligation will be less in Thailand, and I think tax brackets are lower to boot (not sure if still true, but last I checked, tax brackets in Thailand would have you paying a few percent less tax).

[UKresonant]

12 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

It depends on how you define "Tax Free", HMRC doesn't consider the income you earn below your Personal Tax Allowance as "Tax Free", it considers it taxed at 0% (Nil Rate), so technically you have "Payed" the tax required on it.... Same is true with the 1st £1,000 (soon to be reduced to £500) of Dividend Income & £1,000 of Bank Interest.  

 

So if the Thai Revenue Department views this in the same way then there will be no more Tax to pay on it according to rule 5 on their own website... 

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer. 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

This could be the reason why the original statement said that nationalities covered by a DTA would have no more Tax to pay.  

If they work it like that in practice, that is helpful. So perhaps ISA's Dividends could be zero tax rated? but maybe just have to wait till 2025 and see actual outcomes.

[SingAPorn]

No offence please, but the US,. UK or Australians are not the only people here. Other foreigners are also in Thailand and all have different tax situations. On the whole the wealthy people from Europe or Asia are going to sell property, leave and the markets are flodded with sellers and very few foreign buyers.

 

Even if there is treaty to avoid double taxation, one may assume it will require a lawyer and a accountant or an agent to make one's way out on the annual tax returns form.

[Geir Rasch]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:57 PM, BritTim said:

It is worth noting that exactly what "days" means is unclear. Is a 59-night stay 60 days (as declared by Immigration) or is it 60 days?

When immigration count your 90 days day 1 is the day you meet up, not the next day. So 180 days start when you enter Thaiand.

[federicoP]

8 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

When immigration count your 90 days day 1 is the day you meet up, not the next day. So 180 days start when you enter Thaiand.

The Revenue Department is using an other concept, if you arrive today and leave tomorrow you stay only one day.

At least this was the concept in 2015, when I had a long discussion bercause I was needing a RO22 (Certificate of fiscal Residence).
After four inbound and outbound trips in my opinion (and immigration opinion) I stayed for 182 days, but the Revenue considered only 178 and did not give me the certificate.

[federicoP]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:39 AM, khunPer said:

I do mine every year before end of March, and I'm a retiree...

Me too, I pay the taxes on my pension here, this income does not add to other incomes that I have in my native country and I save money.
It is not rocket science, every year I go to the local Revenue Office with my data and they help me in filling online the form PND 91 (personal income tax return) that is in thai.

[Geir Rasch]

39 minutes ago, federicoP said:

The Revenue Department is using an other concept, if you arrive today and leave tomorrow you stay only one day.

At least this was the concept in 2015, when I had a long discussion bercause I was needing a RO22 (Certificate of fiscal Residence).
After four inbound and outbound trips in my opinion (and immigration opinion) I stayed for 182 days, but the Revenue considered only 178 and did not give me the certificate.

That is important information. I know some people who might get same problem with their 180 days if this is how Revenue Dept count days.

[Marky Mark Mark]

26 minutes ago, federicoP said:

Me too, I pay the taxes on my pension here, this income does not add to other incomes that I have in my native country and I save money.
It is not rocket science, every year I go to the local Revenue Office with my data and they help me in filling online the form PND 91 (personal income tax return) that is in thai.

Logistically this has no chance of working if Thai Tax form is in Thai.........................

[Marky Mark Mark]

6 minutes ago, Geir Rasch said:

That is important information. I know some people who might get same problem with their 180 days if this is how Revenue Dept count days.

From 300 day in Thailand to 180 days in my case.  This is just going to Crater the Thai economy.

[freeworld]

19 minutes ago, Marky Mark Mark said:

Logistically this has no chance of working if Thai Tax form is in Thai.........................

Well then you just use the english version of it.

[bigt3116]

2 hours ago, federicoP said:

After four inbound and outbound trips in my opinion (and immigration opinion) I stayed for 182 days, but the Revenue considered only 178 and did not give me the certificate.

Strange, because the revenue office state "You need to be able to prove that you were in Thailand (continuously or not) at least 180 days in the year by showing the copy of your passport pages where there are stamps of your entries and exits.", so it would appear that they use the same figures as immigration?

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Geir Rasch said:

That is important information. I know some people who might get same problem with their 180 days if this is how Revenue Dept count days.

 

11 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

Strange, because the revenue office state "You need to be able to prove that you were in Thailand (continuously or not) at least 180 days in the year by showing the copy of your passport pages where there are stamps of your entries and exits.", so it would appear that they use the same figures as immigration?

 

 

For Revenue purposes, a day is where you were at midnight hence the day of arrival and day of departure are often not counted. I know this because I counted days in this way for three different Revenue Departments, for several years. If your flight leaves before midnight and arrives after midnight elsewhere, you get to pick up an extra day or so.

[retarius]

On 10/10/2023 at 8:16 AM, Marky Mark Mark said:

Can someone explain whats going on. I hear its way past the conjecture stage.   Its a done deal.

 

 

I make way too much money in USA.....im concerned i have to limit myself to 180 days in Thailand, 

Poor wickle wich kid.

[retarius]

I'm definitely becoming a non resident for tax purposes. 179 days max. No transfers. I'm just guessing that it will be nigh on impossible to claim back extra taxes. All my income is from the US, and every penny of it is taxed, but knowing Thailand I find it difficult to believe than any withholding taxes on transfers will be willingly coughed up back to me and that claims will be subject not intense or impossible and variable paperwork.

Better not to pay it in the first place. 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Marky Mark Mark said:

From 300 day in Thailand to 180 days in my case.  This is just going to Crater the Thai economy.

You think the strength of the Thai economy is governed by foreigners spending the entire year in Thailand? If so, you weren't paying attention in Thailand Economics 101.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, federicoP said:

The Revenue Department is using an other concept, if you arrive today and leave tomorrow you stay only one day.

At least this was the concept in 2015, when I had a long discussion bercause I was needing a RO22 (Certificate of fiscal Residence).
After four inbound and outbound trips in my opinion (and immigration opinion) I stayed for 182 days, but the Revenue considered only 178 and did not give me the certificate.

No, if you arrive and leave in the same day, you had zero days in that country. Revenue departments globally count where you were at midnight. If you happened to be on a plane at midnight you weren't anywhere for tax purposes on that day.

[sandyf]

On 10/10/2023 at 2:31 PM, quake said:

Yeah, about time AN started a new sub forum,  just for this tax issue.

Good idea with country specific threads.

We are all born equal until it comes to money.

[Longwood50]

Ok perhaps this is a stupid question but lets say I have income in the USA of $100,000 per year and I pay taxes on that income and don't bring it into Thailand but rather have it remain in the USA. 

Is it the understanding that the new law would make that amount taxable here in Thailand if I reside over 180 days.  

Now what if the money in an account in the USA is savings already taxed in the USA and that money is brought into Thailand for living expenses.  That money is not "income" 

What is the situation with Social Security.  I read conflicting statements with some saying Thailand could tax the social security and others saying no if you pay your tax in the USA then none will be owed here in Thailand because of the tax treaty. 

 

[soalbundy]

On 10/10/2023 at 4:57 PM, Guavaman said:

DineshR, please get clear on this and refrain from posting misinformation that may cause misunderstanding for other people.

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments

      3. Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. The term “annuities” as used in this paragraph means a stated sum paid periodically at stated times during a specified number of years, under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration (other than services rendered).

 

This means that for people who are tax residents of Thailand (>180 days), annuities "shall be taxable only in that State" where they are resident = Thailand.

 

Annuities are taxable in Thailand under the DTA.

 

I got hold of Thai tax form for personal income tax in English and there is a box to fill in regarding pensions, it's from 2016 I believe.

[MichaelHunt]

I wonder how this would work in practice. It could not be based on the number of days you spent in the country in the CURRENT year, right? Because if that were the case, one could transfer money into Thailand tax free during the first 179 days of the year because one can't spend more than 180 days in the country in less than 180 days.

 

So it would have to be based on whether you spent 180 days in the country in the PREVIOUS year. Or am I missing something? How do other people see this?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, MichaelHunt said:

I wonder how this would work in practice. It could not be based on the number of days you spent in the country in the CURRENT year, right? Because if that were the case, one could transfer money into Thailand tax free during the first 179 days of the year because one can't spend more than 180 days in the country in less than 180 days.

 

So it would have to be based on whether you spent 180 days in the country in the PREVIOUS year. Or am I missing something? How do other people see this?

The tax year runs from 1 January to 31 December, the tax return must be filed the FOLLOWING January through March.

[MichaelHunt]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The tax year runs from 1 January to 31 December, the tax return must be filed the FOLLOWING January through March.

So are you suggesting that a tax would be withheld on all inward remittances, and it would be up to the individual "taxpayer" to file a return to try to get it back if no taxes were actually due?

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, MichaelHunt said:

So are you suggesting that a tax would be withheld on all inward remittances, and it would be up to the individual "taxpayer" to file a return to try to get it back if no taxes were actually due?

I NEVER said anything even remotely similar to that! However did you get from me defining the duration of a tax year, to all incoming funds having tax with held?

[retarius]

1 hour ago, Longwood50 said:

Ok perhaps this is a stupid question but lets say I have income in the USA of $100,000 per year and I pay taxes on that income and don't bring it into Thailand but rather have it remain in the USA. 

Is it the understanding that the new law would make that amount taxable here in Thailand if I reside over 180 days.  

Now what if the money in an account in the USA is savings already taxed in the USA and that money is brought into Thailand for living expenses.  That money is not "income" 

What is the situation with Social Security.  I read conflicting statements with some saying Thailand could tax the social security and others saying no if you pay your tax in the USA then none will be owed here in Thailand because of the tax treaty. 

 

An accountant US/Thai told that SS is subject to a separate agreements d=signed in I think 1998. Only the US can tax social security here. MY SS is about 100K baht a month....not enough to live on, unless I want to eat bugs and drink goat piss. 

[Marky Mark Mark]

22 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You think the strength of the Thai economy is governed by foreigners spending the entire year in Thailand? If so, you weren't paying attention in Thailand Economics 101.

Think Bud Light.

 

They had a BASE which they totally Pissed off .  Instead they thought LGBTQ crowd would more than make up for them( think Indians......lol).