Change in the tax law does target expats living in Thailand and extends reporting obligations

[biggles45]

 

The 2023 OZ pension, paid to a Resident living overseas is $21,300 (490,300 baht) a year and is not taxable

The Thai tax rates are

0 – 150,000 Exempt 150,000 – 300,000 5% 300,000 – 500,000 10%    

So tax due would be 7,500 + 20,000 for a total of 27,500

 

 

 

 

[Dogmatix]

10 hours ago, perconrad said:

I am Danish too and receive pensions in Denmark which are taxed with 38 %.

I have lived in Thailand more than 17 years.

 

Last year I was invited to a meeting with the local tax office in Kantharalak, Sisaket, I should not bring anything and at the meeting the officers showed me that they had received my yearly tax return from the Danish tax bureau.

Since I had paid so much in tax, the officers said I was free to go and I should not report or pay tax to Thailand, it looked that they were sorry for me that I had already paid so much in tax.

 

They showed me that I had a tax ID and that was my ID number on my pink ID card

 

I have a Danish friend on Danish government pension who also received a similar summons from the RD but they asked him to bring all documentation relating to his pension and tax paid on it. Perhaps they made a reciprocal agreement with the Danes on this or the Danes just volunteered stuff on their citizens in Thailand out of sheer bloody mindedness. 

 

I wonder, if this signifies the future.  Anyone who received foreign remittances will get called in and they will have print outs of CRS reports on all their foreign bank accounts to cross reference with what the tax resident shows them. 

[Guavaman]

11 hours ago, Jeffrey346 said:

11 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

In fact, the Revenue Department is in the process of hiring 70 Lawyers.. One in each province to assure tax collection.

 

Do expect them not to enforce it. The RD will be going after all those who are not paying their taxes. Thai Nationals included.

Your statement was a contradiction. 

 

Please clarify your intended meaning. 

 

[lordgrinz]

For those of use living off of savings in another country, how exactly would this affect sending that savings over? You can be assured the US government has already taxed me to death, so its not like I am sending untaxed money here.

[Dogmatix]

41 minutes ago, Karma80 said:

This just dropped and worth watching: 

 

 

This was a rather pointless video. Just saying that paying Thai tax on only $100,000 out of your income of $1 million is a good deal because it is only an effective tax rate of 2% is not helpful to most people here, who actually live in Thailand and don't have $1 million a year. I wasted over 10 minutes watching this garbage to see, if he had anything useful to say to but he didn't.

[Guavaman]

Instead of: this is my situation --I going to do this.

 

I suggest that readers shift into learning mode. Do your diligence in researching this topic. 

 

More ranting about your unwillingness to accept change, does not help anyone.

[Gknrd]

Agents will meet you at the immigration office to help get your tax certificate stamped by the authorized tax lawyers. Then Agents for your yearly extension will take over to help you get your yearly extension. Then your wife or girlfriend will take over to extract the remaining funds you have left. You guys will be an extremely hot commodity in the LOS's.  Now everyone gets a cut of your retirement money, from the government to the bar girl.. The circle is complete.

Thailand is smiling again..

Edited November 6, 2023 by Gknrd

[hondoelsinore]

47 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

Agents will meet you at the immigration office to help get your tax certificate stamped by the authorized tax lawyers. Then Agents for your yearly extension will take over to help you get your yearly extension. Then your wife or girlfriend will take over to extract the remaining funds you have left. You guys will be an extremely hot commodity in the LOS's.  Now everyone gets a cut of your retirement money, from the government to the bar girl.. The circle is complete.

Thailand is smiling again..

Bet your fun at parties...

[stat]

4 hours ago, Barnet1900 said:

They won't acknowledge it. It's 100pc true what you say but they'll always bite the nose off to spite their greedy faces.

 

Look how they treated ex-pats during COVID. We were contributing to the economy when tourists were gone. They did everything in their power to make their ingratitude evident.

 

I'll never forget the countless times they tried to get us back on home soil despite what local businesses were saying.

 

Let's face it, it only takes one idiot at the top for everyone to follow.

 

I'd love to see our home countries come out and give a warning about the repercussions of retiring or relocating to a country where they can change the laws without any logic or reasoning at the drop of an imbecile's hat. See how they react to that.

 

They're completely clueless.

I am a big fan of low tax taxes! However thai taxes are still way lower then in the rest of the world especially as they "only" tax your remitance.

[stat]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

I have a Danish friend on Danish government pension who also received a similar summons from the RD but they asked him to bring all documentation relating to his pension and tax paid on it. Perhaps they made a reciprocal agreement with the Danes on this or the Danes just volunteered stuff on their citizens in Thailand out of sheer bloody mindedness. 

 

I wonder, if this signifies the future.  Anyone who received foreign remittances will get called in and they will have print outs of CRS reports on all their foreign bank accounts to cross reference with what the tax resident shows them. 

Utter nightmare! They will never understand a crs report and why you have so much money and spend so little of it... Setting my sails for the Philippines, however not sure if I will like it there.

[stat]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

This was a rather pointless video. Just saying that paying Thai tax on only $100,000 out of your income of $1 million is a good deal because it is only an effective tax rate of 2% is not helpful to most people here, who actually live in Thailand and don't have $1 million a year. I wasted over 10 minutes watching this garbage to see, if he had anything useful to say to but he didn't.

Fully agree! Paying 20K USD in taxes while PH charges nothing is not a good deal.

[stat]

47 minutes ago, hondoelsinore said:

Bet your fun at parties...

Smart people who tell the truth are not fun at parties, but fun to talk to. 🙂

[Captain Monday]

This interpretation change in the tax law will be very unfair to Thai billionaires

who hold significant overseas assets and foreign income streams.

[Guavaman]

17 hours ago, worrab said:

19 hours ago, Jeffrey346 said:

They will enforce it. In fact, the Revenue Department is in the process of hiring 70 Lawyers.. One in each province to assure tax collection.

Just out of interest, where did you find this information?

 

17 hours ago, Jeffrey346 said:

My wife. She is a lawyer and works for the RD. She applied for this new position.

If Jeffrey is not bullsh!tting, and his wife is a lawyer working for the RD, everything that anyone writes on this thread is feeding into the RD. 

 

I suggest that we refrain from discussing strategies & tactics for avoiding income tax here because this thread has been compromised.  Sleeping with the enemy.

[UKresonant]

Just now, samtam said:

 

Can you expand on "economic ties" please?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rdr3-statutory-residence-test-srt/guidance-note-for-statutory-residence-test-srt-rdr3#sufficient-ties-test

[hondoelsinore]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Smart people who tell the truth are not fun at parties, but fun to talk to. 🙂

You don't get out much huh? Are you a shut in? Looking for friends and allies from anonymous strangers in a public open forum? I am wondering if there will be 131+ pages of the same superfluous comments as the other one? Methinks there will be, and most likely by the same mega posters as the other one, making the same old tired comments. It's hilarious that you can see who posts the most at the beginning of the thread, and then you read their comments. 🤣

[jerrymahoney]

3 hours ago, Guavaman said:

 

If Jeffrey is not bullsh!tting, and his wife is a lawyer working for the RD, everything that anyone writes on this thread is feeding into the RD. 

 

I suggest that we refrain from discussing strategies & tactics for avoiding income tax here because this thread has been compromised.  Sleeping with the enemy.

Why -- wouldn't it be good to know whether the 70 new RD enforcement attorneys will be accepting agent bribes?

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, biggles45 said:

 

The 2023 OZ pension, paid to a Resident living overseas is $21,300 (490,300 baht) a year and is not taxable

The Thai tax rates are

0 – 150,000 Exempt 150,000 – 300,000 5% 300,000 – 500,000 10%    

So tax due would be 7,500 + 20,000 for a total of 27,500

 

 

 

 

Incorrect! If your Oz pension income is 490,300 baht, you must firstly apply any allowances of deductions to establish the taxable amount,. From that 490,300, deduct 60,000 for a personal allowance and then deduct 190,000 for being over 65 (I presume you are), which leaves 240,300 baht. The first 150k o that is zero rated but the next 90,300 is taxable at 5%, which equals 4,515 baht tax due. If you are married you can deduct a further 60k for your wife, if you have children, a mortgage, health insurance, life insurance or a myriad of other things, you can deduct costs for those things also. Bottom line, 4,515 baht in tax, NOT 27,500.

[NONG CHOK]

Hi all, I'm an 78yo retiree married to a Thai woman. I don't receive the Australian age pension, my only income is from term deposit investments in Australia. I own my own property here and my expenses are rather low as I've mainly dropped off bars and drink at home. So I only do cash tranfers via Transferwise when needed. I'm below the tax threshold in Australia so I don't pay tax there either. Where will I stand if these new tax laws are brought in.

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

This is quite scary. 

 

I wonder why you had to pay a fine at the amphur, rather than the RD office. I was fined and made to pay some back tax and income for my company due to a small mistake made by our accountant a few years earlier but I had to pay at the RD office. 

It was perfectly clear several years ago that many foreigners who live in Thailand year round and who reclaimed tax paid on Thai bank account savings interest, were filing false tax declarations by declaring only the Thai bank interest and no other income. This is especially true of those people who used direct deposit to receive their pension payments here in Thailand every month. I'm pretty sure that was obvious to many and that nobody can selectively file the parts of a tax return that they want to and ignore the rest! The problem is, many of those people thought they would be able to get away with that because the RD was backwards and third world and they'll never know. Oh well!

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, NONG CHOK said:

Hi all, I'm an 78yo retiree married to a Thai woman. I don't receive the Australian age pension, my only income is from term deposit investments in Australia. I own my own property here and my expenses are rather low as I've mainly dropped off bars and drink at home. So I only do cash tranfers via Transferwise when needed. I'm below the tax threshold in Australia so I don't pay tax there either. Where will I stand if these new tax laws are brought in.

Nobody is absolutely certain at this point because not all the rules are clear plus things will almost certainly change so take what I say next in that context.

 

Currently, any income earned outside Thailand and imported to Thailand during the year it was earned, was taxable and had to be declared. If you filed annual Thai tax return in the past and declared those transfers, everything is fine.

 

BUT, under the new rules, income earned overseas and transferred during any year in which you are resident in Thailand (more than 180 days in any tax year), is taxable. This means it is not possible to escape tax by transferring funds in a the following years. I do not know what the Double Tax Agreement between Oz and Thailand says so there may be something in there that helps you, perhaps others know.

[Mike Lister]

17 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Seems those people like myself and @Dogmatix and @stat and @Mike Lister and many others who have been 'discussing' this matter (not always in agreement), and the possible implications, and the possible counter measures - and who were called 'phrophets of doom' by the 'bar-boys' and 'emus' on this forum, have been doing the right thing when raising the issues and debating the negatives.

 

 

Well, who would have guessed - several Thai tax law exdperts have come out and said it too.  Maybe now the 'bar-boys' and 'emus' will realise that this is not an issue to be treated with disdain (and those discussing it), and that the  'She'll be right mate - have another beer'  is not going to be the right strategy in the long run. It might not become such a big issue - but it certainly can if things are not clarified and detailed explanations are not provided by the Thai RD.  As the post above says - we will have to 'report' remittances into Thailand and dfeclare them either taxabale or non-taxable income (as it stands), and good luck convincing Somchai in the Thai RD that your pension/savings are not 'income' that can be taxed in Thailand - and even more good luck when arguing with Pronchai that a DTA means you pay no taxes 🙂   

 

In this modern world of social media and its massive influence on all Govts (especially Thailand). It is only because of Expats like us 'complaining' on this forum, and other websites, and our Thai partners, that this issue is being 'responded to' by people that do have an influence in Thailand.  There are no guarantees either way, but these days it is very much that the 'squeky wheel' gets the oil - and the 'noisier' we are the better. So get active boys and put forward your thoughts and opinions - right or wrtong it does not matter.

 

And 'Good Luck Everybody'.  Forcing me to pay income taxes will mean my Thai wife and I will be leaving Thailand - period.  My reasons for all that are in my previous posts in thge other thread (many times). 

As has already been stated, the article you cite is a partial rewrite of the article posted previously. The new article does not contain any new information or things that weren't already known and discussed ad infinitum.

 

Clearly, you have not fully read or understood either article because if you had, you would quickly realise that the main points in it concern the legality of the proposed rule rather than anything new and the fact that the rule is likely to be challenged in the courts. It therefore follows that being patient and waiting to see what happens, is almost certainly the right thing to do.

[jerrymahoney]

Yes I know. You've got scruples. From the movie Paper Moon (1973):

 

Moses Pray : You don't have to worry. ... I've got scruples too, ya know. You know what that is... scruples?

Addie Loggins : No, I don't know what it is but if you've got 'em, it's a sure bet they belong to somebody else!

[jerrymahoney]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

I didn't say that, Grumpy did, please fix your post.

I did you are too fast

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I did you are too fast

That's what my wife says.

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Nobody is absolutely certain at this point because not all the rules are clear plus things will almost certainly change so take what I say next in that context.

 

Currently, any income earned outside Thailand and imported to Thailand during the year it was earned, was taxable and had to be declared. If you filed annual Thai tax return in the past and declared those transfers, everything is fine.

 

BUT, under the new rules, income earned overseas and transferred during any year in which you are resident in Thailand (more than 180 days in any tax year), is taxable. This means it is not possible to escape tax by transferring funds in a the following years. I do not know what the Double Tax Agreement between Oz and Thailand says so there may be something in there that helps you, perhaps others know.

So, since @NONG CHOK lives off savings he needs only a proof that these savings were earned while he wasn't tax resident in Thailand. If he doesn't transfer interest earned, that is.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[beammeup]

5 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

So, since @NONG CHOK lives off savings he needs only a proof that these savings were earned while he wasn't tax resident in Thailand. If he doesn't transfer interest earned, that is.

TBD

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

So, since @NONG CHOK lives off savings he needs only a proof that these savings were earned while he wasn't tax resident in Thailand. If he doesn't transfer interest earned, that is.

That seems to be the case, yes.

[Artisi]

On 11/6/2023 at 8:14 AM, Captain Monday said:

Then to nothing to concern myself with as  I do not spend 180 days/year in any country.

 

regards,

 

Captain Monday 

 

 

Constant international travel

Lucky you but very narrow minded and self absorbed, how about a bit of thought for those long established expats with family and houses already contributing to the Thai economy by living here and purchasing everything from food thru' to motor cars etc. In effect if it goes ahead and is applied to money coming into the country for daily living etc, it will amount to double taxing all expats. 

[Neeranam]

On 11/6/2023 at 3:55 AM, Gknrd said:

It will go into effect , it won't matter if it is challenged in court or not. 

Nightmare to be  enforced or not, it does not matter. 

My guess is they will have authorized tax officials that you will have to get signed off on before you go to immigration for an extension of your visa.

 

I don't think they care about foreigners, this law is for Thais getting money from abroad.