Factchecking 21 misleading myths about electric vehicles

[Bandersnatch]

Views on EVs seem to be polarized along political lines. Views seem to depend on which echo chamber you spend your time in. One thing is certain however and that is discussions about EVs on the Thailand Motor Forum seem to generate a lot of interest, both for and against.

 

For those of us who own EVs in Thailand it can be frustrating having to fact check the same things all the time, so I am posting this link to facilitate the debates

 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/

 

Questions covered in the article:

 

‘An EV has to travel 50,000+ miles to break even’

 

‘VW’s e-Golf becomes more environmentally friendly only after 77,000 miles’

 

The ‘electric Volvo C40 needs to be driven around 68,400 miles to cut carbon’

 

‘Electric vehicles have little or no CO2 advantage over the car you already drive’

 

‘Climate change is accelerating because of the ban on combustion-engines’

 

‘Old bangers are the green motorist’s choice’

 

‘EVs simply displace carbon emissions from roads to distant power stations’

 

‘Electric cars are not green machines’

 

‘Electric vehicles alone can’t solve climate change’

 

‘EVs are [low-mileage] runabouts…[that] take a long time to pay off their carbon debt’

 

‘Synthetic petrol could displace electric vehicles’

 

‘Hydrogen cars are more sustainable than EVs’

 

‘Sales of electric vehicles appear to be slowing’

 

‘Electric cars could soon be more expensive to drive than their petrol equivalents’

 

‘There are insufficient raw materials…for all vehicles to be EVs’

 

The lifetime of EV batteries is ‘horribly uncertain’

 

‘Electric vehicles can explode – petrol ones only do it in movies’

 

‘Under Biden’s electric vehicle mandate, 40% of US auto jobs will disappear’

 

‘Electric car revolution at crisis point’ due to ‘charging point shortage’

 

‘Britain’s creaking power grid cannot cope with charging electric cars’

 

‘How your super heavy EV produces MORE pollution than petrol and diesel cars’

 

 

 

 

[VocalNeal]

17 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Britain’s creaking power grid cannot cope with charging electric cars’

 

Neither can that of the USA. Probably in many other countries.🤔

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

 

Neither can that of the USA. Probably in many other countries.🤔

As with everything, choose the products you buy and where you plan on living with a bit of research.   It's not rocket science.

 

Better research = Happier life

[VocalNeal]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

‘Britain’s creaking power grid cannot cope with charging electric cars’

 

 

I'm interested to know why you think Britain's grid is creaking.

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

 

Neither can that of the USA. Probably in many other countries.🤔

I have read that in some countries EV charging at home has to be registered to regulate the number of home charging in a particular sub station of the Grid.  With the state of the electric grid in Thailand I can see how such wide adoption of EV's charging at home could become a problem.

IMO most people would want to plug in and start charging as soon as they get home from work which would place an additional load to peak electric consumption time .  

[vinny41]

13 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

 

I'm interested to know why you think Britain's grid is creaking.

 

Ken McMeikan, chief executive of Moto Hospitality, which operates motorway service stations across the UK, said the lack of power capacity for charge points is a "major problem" facing the electric vehicle industry.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/electric-car-owners-issued-dire-warning-by-motorway-services-boss-091522987.html?

 

EV drivers are turning up to motorway services at four of our locations and there are chargers sitting there but no power."

 

[macahoom]

20 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

 

I'm interested to know why you think Britain's grid is creaking.

 

I think you need to read the OP's post.

[VocalNeal]

^ Because Little Chef chip fryers are using all the power? Also we do not know what power capacity the services paid for when they were constructed. 

As in most countries you get what you pay for when connected. I suspect Mr. McMeikan is trying to wiggle out of or blame shift a situation of piss-poor corporate planning. 

[VocalNeal]

4 minutes ago, macahoom said:

 

I think you need to read the OP's post.

 

In which case he should have not have simply copied and pasted he should have done a proper job.

Edited November 6, 2023 by VocalNeal

[KhunLA]

25 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

Ken McMeikan, chief executive of Moto Hospitality, which operates motorway service stations across the UK, said the lack of power capacity for charge points is a "major problem" facing the electric vehicle industry.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/electric-car-owners-issued-dire-warning-by-motorway-services-boss-091522987.html?

 

EV drivers are turning up to motorway services at four of our locations and there are chargers sitting there but no power."

Not sure why there would be no power, but maybe if the Moto Stations weren't mini malls, entertainment centers & hotels, their might be enough juice left over for the chargers .... just a thought:

source

" Facilities

Shops

Until 2007, Moto sites had an own-brand shop to sell products to travellers. After a trial of WHSmith at select sites was deemed successful, the brand was rolled out to most Moto sites, with some exceptions (Leeming Bar, Tiverton and Todhills).

Also trialled were M&S Foodhalls, which were introduced in 2004 and now feature at most Moto locations.

Catering

• Burger King is at all but two Moto sites (Todhills & Lymm).^[a]
• Costa Coffee operates at all Moto service areas.
• Greggs is at most Moto service stations. Moto also operates Greggs at four Extra motorway services as well.
• KFC is available at select larger Moto sites.
• Krispy Kreme operate stalls at most Moto locations.
• Pret a Manger is available at busier Moto service areas.
• West Cornwall Pasty Company now operates where all Upper Crusts used to be, except for Cherwell Valley, Wetherby and Reading Eastbound.

Other facilities

Barbershops

One site, Lymm, features a barbershop. Previously, Toddington and Leigh Delamere sites also opened but have since closed.

Betting arcades

In 1995, Granada thought that betting arcades would be useful at motorway services:

• Ladbrokes was the first brand used. Most outlets were closed in 2019.
• Lucky Coin is Moto's own brand betting arcades. They appear at most sites.
• Full Hou$e is another Moto brand betting arcade, replacing some outlets of Lucky Coin.
• &Play is another own brand betting arcade, introduced in 2017.

Hotels

Most Moto locations have hotels:

• Travelodge operates at 56 Moto sites.
• Days Inn is at two Moto sites: Wetherby and Winchester. Winchester Days Inn was opened by Moto but is operated by Welcome Break."

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not sure why there would be no power, but maybe if the Moto Stations weren't mini malls, entertainment centers & hotels, their might be enough juice left over for the chargers .... just a thought:

source

" Facilities

Shops

Until 2007, Moto sites had an own-brand shop to sell products to travellers. After a trial of WHSmith at select sites was deemed successful, the brand was rolled out to most Moto sites, with some exceptions (Leeming Bar, Tiverton and Todhills).

Also trialled were M&S Foodhalls, which were introduced in 2004 and now feature at most Moto locations.

Catering

• Burger King is at all but two Moto sites (Todhills & Lymm).^[a]
• Costa Coffee operates at all Moto service areas.
• Greggs is at most Moto service stations. Moto also operates Greggs at four Extra motorway services as well.
• KFC is available at select larger Moto sites.
• Krispy Kreme operate stalls at most Moto locations.
• Pret a Manger is available at busier Moto service areas.
• West Cornwall Pasty Company now operates where all Upper Crusts used to be, except for Cherwell Valley, Wetherby and Reading Eastbound.

Other facilities

Barbershops

One site, Lymm, features a barbershop. Previously, Toddington and Leigh Delamere sites also opened but have since closed.

Betting arcades

In 1995, Granada thought that betting arcades would be useful at motorway services:

• Ladbrokes was the first brand used. Most outlets were closed in 2019.
• Lucky Coin is Moto's own brand betting arcades. They appear at most sites.
• Full Hou$e is another Moto brand betting arcade, replacing some outlets of Lucky Coin.
• &Play is another own brand betting arcade, introduced in 2017.

Hotels

Most Moto locations have hotels:

• Travelodge operates at 56 Moto sites.
• Days Inn is at two Moto sites: Wetherby and Winchester. Winchester Days Inn was opened by Moto but is operated by Welcome Break."

The hurdle for motorway service areas continues to be a lack of charging capacity, with some sites having to decommission their charging points because they were taking power from the main facilities.

https://motorwayservices.uk/Electric_Car

I am sure most Motorway services would have done a cost analysis against profit and power  consumption and removed the items that were the least profitable per kwh

[connda]

2 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

Views on EVs seem to be polarized along political lines.

Fact-checker - The authoritarian-backed narratives endorsed by one side of the political line.

[alien365]

I think a lot of the anti EV crowd just generally dislike the holier than though attitude of EV owners rather than EV itself. The preaching and superiority complex is akin to cyclists, vegans, and 'the left'. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, alien365 said:

I think a lot of the anti EV crowd just generally dislike the holier than though attitude of EV owners rather than EV itself. The preaching and superiority complex is akin to cyclists, vegans, and 'the left'. 

Why ?

Who doesn't like saving money, while driving better performing vehicles.   We're just trying to enlighten the anti EV'ers, when they comment their BS on EV threads.

Edited November 6, 2023 by KhunLA

[Bandersnatch]

1 minute ago, alien365 said:

I think a lot of the anti EV crowd just generally dislike the holier than though attitude of EV owners rather than EV itself. The preaching and superiority complex is akin to cyclists, vegans, and 'the left'. 

 

 

 

I hear that a lot, but I haven't seen EV owners swarming petrol head discussions - maybe you have and can post links.

 

I have certainly seen many many anti EV comments on EV discussions that lack basic science understanding. Maybe if you've had to explain Grid Balancing and load shifting to someone who doesn't understand TOU Tariffs for the 5th time that week you can come across as patronizing. In which case apologies. 

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

I'm interested to know why you think Britain's grid is creaking.

 

 

I don't but it's a comment that is regularly heard in EV discussions (insert country name of your choice)

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

IMO most people would want to plug in and start charging as soon as they get home from work which would place an additional load to peak electric consumption time . 

 

Not if it was much cheaper to wait a few hours - Just program the car once to charge the same time every day when electricity is cheaper

 

 

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Not if it was much cheaper to wait a few hours - Just program the car once to charge the same time every day when electricity is cheaper

 

 

Don't tell me, I don't even have an EV yet,  tell them. 

I am not opposed to EVs I am sure there is an EV in my future, If I had not bought a new car a couple of years ago , and would take a finical bath if I trade it in , I would buy one now.  I still might I am tempted, but I think if I wait a couple of years not only would I get out of my current vehicle  in better shape, but I might get a better EV, for less money 

I am aware of the positives, and they far outweigh the negatives, But I am not blind either. 

It does not take a genius to observe that the Thai electrical grid (and that of most countries) , but in this instance te Thai electrical grid, can barely service current domestic demand.

 At this time I think 8% of the vehicles are battery electric vehicles (BEVs) , Imagine if that percentage increases at a magnitude of 10? 

At the very least it will be a challenge and reasonable people should start thinking about it.  

Personally if I purchased an EV I would invest in a couple of solar cells , but not everyone lives at a private residence. 

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. 

Personally I think the feature is in Fuel Cell Electrical Vehicles (FCEV) They make better sense from a user point of view ,and an engineering one. Batteries might be more efficient than fuel cells but they weigh a lot more, and most of the efficiency is lost in moving that weight around, but you have the issue of production and infustracture of hydrogen..

Neither technology is standing still, there are advancements on a daily basis so who knows. 

[alien365]

13 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Why ?

Who doesn't like saving money, while driving better performing vehicles.   We're just trying to enlighten the anti EV'ers, when they comment their BS on EV threads.

I think it's enlightening people who don't want to be or are not ready to be yet. Some people accept change quickly whereas others fear or don't want it, which also comes down to the OP's point about political lines.  I wonder what the EV threads would be like if the EV haters didn't comment. Would there actually be any content? I quite enjoy following the bickering as I actually learn quite a lot from it, more so than reading fact checking articles.

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 

Personally I think the feature is in Fuel Cell Electrical Vehicles (FCEV) They make better sense from a user point of view ,and an engineering one. Batteries might be more efficient than fuel cells but they weigh a lot more, and most of the efficiency is lost in moving that weight around, but you have the issue of production and infostructure of hydrogen..

Neither technology is standing still, there are advancements on a daily basis so who knows. 

 

Do you accept BEV's are 3 times more efficient than a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car?

The reason being the cost of producing hydrogen, typically from Electrolysis (other methods even more expensive).  If you know of a way that increases a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car's efficiency to anything approaching a BEV, I'd like to hear it?

 

Agreed some efficiency is lost moving heavy batteries around, conversely there is no heavy engine and a lot of the energy in getting that heavy vehicle moving is recuperated on slowing down.

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, alien365 said:

I think it's enlightening people who don't want to be or are not ready to be yet. Some people accept change quickly whereas others fear or don't want it, which also comes down to the OP's point about political lines.  I wonder what the EV threads would be like if the EV haters didn't comment. Would there actually be any content? I quite enjoy following the bickering as I actually learn quite a lot from it, more so than reading fact checking articles.

Then you would fall into the open minded educated folks, instead of someone (troll) being shown a graph on the longevity, cycles of LFP batteries maybe 5X in the thread, then posting on the next page, telling us, for the 6th time, how our battery will need to be replaced in 3 to 5 yrs 🤣

 

Along with being told, they have an 8 yr warranty 🙄

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by KhunLA

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

 

I'm interested to know why you think Britain's grid is creaking.

Just like the rest of the country. Why are y'all here?

[VocalNeal]

^ Didn't come from there.🤔

[alien365]

53 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

I hear that a lot, but I haven't seen EV owners swarming petrol head discussions - maybe you have and can post links.

 

I have certainly seen many many anti EV comments on EV discussions that lack basic science understanding. Maybe if you've had to explain Grid Balancing and load shifting to someone who doesn't understand TOU Tariffs for the 5th time that week you can come across as patronizing. In which case apologies. 

I haven't really seen any petrol head discussions on here. The majority of threads are about EVs, EVs v's ICE,  tax, driving licenses, tyres etc. Regarding repeating your explanations, you chose to enter those discussions. I frequently see people talking BS and choose not to respond as I expect there is usually a strong element of cognitive dissonance at play.

[Bandersnatch]

1 minute ago, alien365 said:

I haven't really seen any petrol head discussions on here. The majority of threads are about EVs, EVs v's ICE,  tax, driving licenses, tyres etc. Regarding repeating your explanations, you chose to enter those discussions. I frequently see people talking BS and choose not to respond as I expect there is usually a strong element of cognitive dissonance at play.

 

You make a valid point  - I give everyone a chance or two to see if they are capable of engaging in a discussion, but once I recognize their only aim is to throw stones they get added to my ignore list so that I don't waste their time or mine.

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, alien365 said:

I haven't really seen any petrol head discussions on here. The majority of threads are about EVs, EVs v's ICE,  tax, driving licenses, tyres etc. Regarding repeating your explanations, you chose to enter those discussions. I frequently see people talking BS and choose not to respond as I expect there is usually a strong element of cognitive dissonance at play.

All are on my ignore list, so unless quoted (less now), then I don't see none of their drivel.

[VocalNeal]

6 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

You make a valid point  - I give everyone a chance or two to see if they are capable of engaging in a discussion, but once I recognize their only aim is to throw stones they get added to my ignore list so that I don't waste their time or mine.

 

I suspect they are not interested in the religious-like zeel of most electric vehicle owners.🤔 In a way it is like asking Holden owner/fans to join in a Ford discussion.

[sirineou]

47 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Do you accept BEV's are 3 times more efficient than a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car?

The reason being the cost of producing hydrogen, typically from Electrolysis (other methods even more expensive).  If you know of a way that increases a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car's efficiency to anything approaching a BEV, I'd like to hear it?

That's because you are factoring in legacy costs.  New technologies about producing storing transporting and accessing Hydrogen are developed every day. Then you have economies of scale, much like battery prices are coming down because of it,.

Then you have the abundance of Hydrogen as opposed to some of the mineral necessary for batteries, 

I remember reading some place that GM is abandoning it's focus on BEV and is pivoting it's focus on Hydrogen , There is a reason why two of the top 3 car manufactures (GM and Toyota)  are betting on Hydrogen. I think they know a bit about the car business. 

And let's not downplay the weight problem. It is a problem on personal vehicles as it requires energy  to accelerate and decelerate a body , Sure some is recovered through regenerative braking but from what studies I have read  it is between 60-70%. At best a 30% loss is significant IMO. 

Remember FCEVs use regenerative braking also. 

But that's for personal vehicles. 

We still have other transportation modes, How about Airplanes? weight  is a significant factor in those, and how about trucks and payload? Over the road trucks have an 80,000 lb gross weight, 

So are we going to have two  economies? one for personal vehicles and one for other weight sensitive modes of transportation ?

IMO (and I have been wrong in the past so why cant I be wrong now)  BEVs are a stop gap solution because some of the electrical grid infustracture is already in place, until and if, the Hydrogen economy gets going. 

And from a geopolitical point of view. The Chinese right now own the BEV industry, how about a check , and perhaps checkmate by pivoting to an already supperior technology? Think about that. 

I am sure if an idiot like me has thought of it, you can bet some of the smart players in DC , Tokyo and Berlin have thought about it.  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by sirineou

[VocalNeal]

40 minutes ago, sirineou said:

So are we going to have two  economies? one for personal vehicles and one for other weight sensitive modes of transportation ?

 

Already.

 

Ships run on Bunker or Heavy Oil cars run on a more highly refined product. There are no bunker oil powered cars.

 

Aircraft run on kerosene. As far as I know there are no kerosene powered cars  . Except maybe for upcountry farm vehicles where locals cut diesel with kerosene to save money.

 

So from an infrastructure point of view two economies🤔

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by VocalNeal

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Don't tell me, I don't even have an EV yet,  tell them. 

 

I was telling you because you posted "IMO most people would want to plug in and start charging as soon as they get home from work which would place an additional load to peak electric consumption time"

 

I was explaining why your comment was wrong - don't get upset about it