Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Lorry]

There is an article by Gwynne Dyer, a military historian from Canada,  in the opinion section of today's Bangkok Post about the bombing of Gaza and the bombing of Germany in WW II.

I found his views on both subjects very interesting. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

hamas are vermin and need to be wiped out 

Excellent post. Keep em coming. We all need to see more reasoned and informative posts like that.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:07 AM, rabas said:

 

Completely disproving your carpet bombing hypothesis. They use 60% smart bombs and sophisticated computerized bombsites with the other bombs. 

So, you are saying they deliberately targeted buildings with 7,000 children in them to be blown up as they have such accurate bombs now. Tell us if that isn't what you meant.

Edited December 22, 2023 by thaibeachlovers

[Bkk Brian]

15 hours ago, placeholder said:

And what is Israel signaling?

Hostages must be released as per UN resolution, Hagari says
IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari has given his reaction to the UN resolution adopted by the Security Council earlier today.

Hagari noted that the resolution includes a demand for the "unconditional immediate release of the hostages held by Hamas and to allow humanitarian access to address their medical needs".

"We call on the international community and international organisations to enforce this resolution," Hagari said in a statement.

[Bkk Brian]

Not much going to change here, Hamas is not going to release hostages and the aid problem was not because of a hold up by Israel (according to them)

 

UN Security Council passes resolution to boost humanitarian aid access to Gaza

The UN Security Council on Friday passed a key resolution, emphasizing the immediate acceleration of aid deliveries to the distressed civilians in Gaza, but without the original call for an "urgent suspension of hostilities" between Israel and Hamas.

The text also demands the "immediate and unconditional release of all hostages," as well as ensuring humanitarian access to address medical needs of all hostages, noting that the provision of fuel to Gaza should meet requisite humanitarian needs.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Excellent post. Keep em coming. We all need to see more reasoned and informative posts like that.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Like your contributions are very different... eh?

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Lorry said:

There is an article by Gwynne Dyer, a military historian from Canada,  in the opinion section of today's Bangkok Post about the bombing of Gaza and the bombing of Germany in WW II.

I found his views on both subjects very interesting. 

 

It's a nonsense article.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So, you are saying they deliberately targeted buildings with 7,000 children in them to be blown up as they have such accurate bombs now. Tell us if that isn't what you meant.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

That's not what he said.

That's your own contrived version.

[Bkk Brian]

From the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres a few hours ago after the security Council Resolution.

 

Nothing can possibly justify the horrific terror attacks launched by Hamas on 7 October, or the brutal abduction of some 250 hostages.

I repeat my call for all remaining hostages to be released immediately and unconditionally.

 

https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1738338451303350381

 

[Bkk Brian]

She gets it................

 

I saw antisemitism every day at the UN. All it takes is 24 hours at the UN to realize that anti-Zionism is just a modern name for the ancient evil of antisemitism.

 

https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1738232723779596546

 

Nikki Haley to 'Post': UN antisemitism led to October 7 massacre

I’ve seen antisemitism. I confronted it every day at the United Nations. And I know that the Jew-haters try to hide it by saying they only hate Israel.

All it takes is 24 hours at the UN to realize that anti-Zionism is just a modern name for the ancient evil of antisemitism.

The worst-kept secret at the UN is that antisemitism is operating just beneath the surface. I saw it in my first few days on the job as US ambassador to the UN, after I met with Israel’s ambassador. 

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-779118

[rabas]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So, you are saying they deliberately targeted buildings with 7,000 children in them to be blown up as they have such accurate bombs now. Tell us if that isn't what you meant.

(Lol, word twist!) 

 

The prior poster claimed IDF's low percentage of precision munitions = 'carpet bombing', none of which was true, even the percentage, according to poster's own links. 

 

As ex-military you know that tunnel busting munitions punching pinholes every 10 meters down a street is not carpet bombing. And that flattening buildings while leaving surrounding buildings untouched is, not, carpet bombing. You also know that warning civilians to leave in advance is not 'targeting children'. 

 

Hamas forbidding family and children to flee is. 

[mikebike]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:07 PM, rabas said:

 

Completely disproving your carpet bombing hypothesis. They use 60% smart bombs and sophisticated computerized bombsites with the other bombs. 

Most reliable reporting is exactly the opposite. 60+% dumb bombs, 30-% expensive smart bombs. 

[mikebike]

Most peeps aren't x military. The devastation they are seeing in Gaza, they are choosing to describe as 'carpet bombing' because it is a catchy war-time phrase they have heard. Whether it is an accurate, legal, description or not, it accurately describes what a lay-person sees and perceives. 

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Most reliable reporting is exactly the opposite. 60+% dumb bombs, 30-% expensive smart bombs. 

Really? You are also forgetting they need them for the tunnels, anyway, more explanation below:

 

America’s intelligence agencies judge that 40-45% of Israel’s air strikes since October 7th have used unguided or “dumb” bombs, as opposed to precision-guided munitions. An American official told cnn that Israel’s air force was employing dive-bombing—releasing after a steep dive—making its attacks more accurate. Edward Stringer, a retired air marshal in the Royal Air Force, says that this was once a routine tactic, used by British Jaguar ground-attack jets in the first Gulf war. “If you have a small area target, this is as valid an attack as dropping a laser-guided bomb,” he says. “You will achieve accuracy within 20 to 30 feet.” The majority of Israel’s unguided bombs are being dropped on Hamas tunnel entrances in northern Gaza, according to people familiar with the targeting.

https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza

https://archive.ph/XXiM0

 

 

[rabas]

14 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Most reliable reporting is exactly the opposite. 60+% dumb bombs, 30-% expensive smart bombs. 

 

Not withstanding it's not about percentages as oft suggested even in your post above. 

 

To try for multiple errors, the prior poster's link that I referenced (from CNN and US officials) says:

 

"The intelligence report was published in CNN. The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided."

 

How's your math?

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

Not withstanding it's not about percentages as oft suggested even in your post above. 

 

To try for multiple errors, the prior poster's link that I referenced (from CNN and US officials) says:

 

"The intelligence report was published in CNN. The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided."

 

How's your math?

 

It's totally irrelevant whether the bombs were dumb or smart. The vast bulk of them were dropped accurately and hit their intended targets. It's nuts to think that the Israeli airforce, uncontested in the sky, missed a significant proportion of their bomb drops. Not only that, but with over 200 2,000 lb bombs it would be hard to miss.

[Morch]

36 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It's totally irrelevant whether the bombs were dumb or smart. The vast bulk of them were dropped accurately and hit their intended targets. It's nuts to think that the Israeli airforce, uncontested in the sky, missed a significant proportion of their bomb drops. Not only that, but with over 200 2,000 lb bombs it would be hard to miss.

 

@ozimoron

 

What are you on about?

[thaibeachlovers]

Just watching an item on Al Jazeera showing the destruction of Nuseirat refugee camp in Gaza. I missed the name but I think that is the camp affected. The entire area has been bombed to destruction. I doubt anything has been like it since carpet bombing of German cities in WW2.

 

Pictures available on google images

https://www.google.com/search?q=destruction+of+Nuseirat+in+gaza&client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=593318739&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi19bC-zqaDAxWSwTgGHdv9Bf8Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=956&bih=418&dpr=1.43#imgrc=YYhbr2nOwYSTbM

 

Nothing can justify destruction like that, It is obviously far more than trying to destroy Hamas fighters.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, rabas said:

(Lol, word twist!) 

 

The prior poster claimed IDF's low percentage of precision munitions = 'carpet bombing', none of which was true, even the percentage, according to poster's own links. 

 

As ex-military you know that tunnel busting munitions punching pinholes every 10 meters down a street is not carpet bombing. And that flattening buildings while leaving surrounding buildings untouched is, not, carpet bombing. You also know that warning civilians to leave in advance is not 'targeting children'. 

 

Hamas forbidding family and children to flee is. 

Why is it necessary to flatten an entire residential building to kill a Hamas fighter?

You are either ignorant of the extent of the damage in Gaza, or don't care.

 

Hamas forbidding family and children to flee is. 

Proof or that is a lie. IDF sources are not acceptable as proof.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why is it necessary to flatten an entire residential building to kill a Hamas fighter?

You are either ignorant of the extent of the damage in Gaza, or don't care.

 

Hamas forbidding family and children to flee is. 

Proof or that is a lie. IDF sources are not acceptable as proof.

Just because its not in your favorite propaganda outlet Al Jazeera does not make it a lie. There are plenty of links back those facts up. Hamas are well documented in using civilians as human shields, to think they would not stop them from leaving certain areas shows your ignorance. 

 

Hamas preventing Gaza residents from fleeing to safety, Palestinian activist says

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just watching an item on Al Jazeera showing the destruction of Nuseirat refugee camp in Gaza. I missed the name but I think that is the camp affected. The entire area has been bombed to destruction. I doubt anything has been like it since carpet bombing of German cities in WW2.

 

Pictures available on google images

https://www.google.com/search?q=destruction+of+Nuseirat+in+gaza&client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=593318739&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi19bC-zqaDAxWSwTgGHdv9Bf8Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=956&bih=418&dpr=1.43#imgrc=YYhbr2nOwYSTbM

 

Nothing can justify destruction like that, It is obviously far more than trying to destroy Hamas fighters.

The image you linked to above is from 18th Oct and does not show carpet bombing

[Nick Carter icp]

Someone is lying , Two news stories that apparently describe the same air strike on the same building in Gaza City. Israel says it tricked dozens of militants to run into a Hamas command center and then struck the building. Hamas says the strike killed 76 members of the same family, including women and children.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/troops-kill-dozens-of-hamas-gunmen-in-north-gaza-idf-says-200-arrested-in-past-week/

 

"Troops kill dozens of Hamas gunmen in north Gaza, IDF says; 200 arrested in past week

Army says it intentionally caused dozens of gunmen to flee into building used as command center, then called in an airstrike; rockets target south for first time in nearly 48 hours"

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-23-2023-982fae4d0802b20d2a90423445c9f64b

 

"More than 90 Palestinians, including dozens from an extended family, were killed in Israeli airstrikes on two homes in Gaza," 

 

[Bkk Brian]

More disturbing first hand accounts of hostages who have been released with some having suffered violent sexual assaults. 

 

‘We’ll never forgive’: Mom, daughter on life of fear in Gaza captivity, pain upon return

She added that before the attack, “We believed that there are no bad people — only people who have it bad. But there are bad people.”

Agam described one incident in which the family was staying at a school where “a nice woman welcomed us and offered us water and arranged a place for us to sleep,” and “I turned to my mother and said ‘There are good people in the world.'”

“And five minutes later, they shot a barrage of rockets from the school [into Israel] and everyone was shouting ‘Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar’ and I told her, ‘Forget what I said, they’re all the same.'”

In the last week of their captivity in Gaza before their release, they were again taken into tunnels, where they met other hostages.

“There were girls there who were alone, alone for 50 days, 19-year-olds, alone, who went through difficult things, personally. They were violated, harmed, some were injured,” Chen said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-will-never-forgive-freed-hostages-describe-intense-fear-in-gaza-captivity/

 

'We know they were raped in Hamas captivity': Chilling details of what hostages faced

Two Israeli doctors, who have been treating released hostages, and an Israeli military official familiar with the matter confirmed to USA TODAY that some released hostages revealed they suffered violent sexual assaults in captivity.

All three spoke on the condition of anonymity.

One of the doctors assessed that "many" of the released Israeli female hostages aged 12 to 48 − there are about 30 of them − were sexually assaulted while held by Hamas in Gaza.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2023/12/20/hamas-sexual-violence-rape-hostages-oct-7/71917113007/

[MangoKorat]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:33 AM, rabas said:

You also know that warning civilians to leave in advance is not 'targeting children'. 

How about bombing the areas they are told to go to? How does that work then?

[Morch]

@MangoKorat

 

There have been many comments and replies to my posts a few days ago.  Without reading them all, I am sure that some will have been claiming that I have simply run away or chosen to put someone on 'Ignore' rather than reply. If that is the case, such posts could not be further from the truth. I work night shifts and this has been a very busy time.  Believe it or not, I don't live my life online. I have other things to do.

 

Not reading posts and topics seems to be a thing with posters sharing your creed. So your imagination aside, your last post on this topic was on 20/12, to which you received a single reply from yours truly. Other than that, no traction. All the stuff you're 'sure' of, didn't happen. Maybe before that - but you answered them posts anyway.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Morch

[MangoKorat]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

Other than that, no traction. All the stuff you're 'sure' of, didn't happen

Not according to what I have been notified of.  But if you are correct, then that's fine, I won't have been accused of dodging the questions as I was before - by someone who seemed to think he could demand immediate replies.

[Jingthing]

Oddballs? Pot kettle black.

I'm a liberal ZIONIST and about as anti-Trump, PRO vaccine, anti garbage conspiracy theories as you can get. 

The mainstream view in the U.S. is definitely to Stand With Israel. Yes younger people are drifting towards being useful idiots for Hamas because they get their news on Tik Tok propaganda clips.

Your suggestion that Netanyahu wants to erase Palestinians is one of those garbage conspiracy theories that I dislike so much.

I detest Netenyahu but your theory is dangerous and stupid.

As far as supporting Israel or not, there are different levels of that, but the basic level is accepting that Israel exists, isn't going anywhere, is a long established sovereign nation, and has a right to defend itself against genocidal terrorists. 

That's not the same thing as saying that Israel is carrying this war out perfectly. They obviously aren't. 

I don't think there is any nation state that could. 

As  far as your naming game, give us a break.

There has NEVER been a nation state called Palestine.

There was the British Mandate with included Transjordan. 

The current land there other than Jordan which is recognized by NOT insane people includes the sovereign nation state of Israel, the West Bank with its complex sections and occupations, and Gaza (not occupied in a very long time).

It's good news you won't be posting here in my opinion, as the content you add is specious and inflammatory.

[nausea]

Killing women and children is never good, the guys can look after themselves, acceptance of sudden death sort of comes with the territory, it defines us - old fashioned guy. 

[Wobblybob]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given the evidence on the ground ( if it can be seen for the rubble of blown up homes ) and the statements on the record of some israeli government figures, it's pretty obvious that you have it right on that. It's been said on Al Jazeera for over a month already.

 

Netanyahu has to be cautious when it comes to America as they provide  the munitions that israel is using to destroy Gaza.

I believe that Biden is all in to what you suggest, but is constrained by the coming election. Presiding over the death of 2.3 million people would not improve his chances of winning.

 

While it's true that Trump is also all in for israel, I'm pretty sure that many of the israeli apologists on here are also Trump haters.

Inflammatory conjecture! 

[Bkk Brian]

10 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

There have been many comments and replies to my posts a few days ago.  Without reading them all, I am sure that some will have been claiming that I have simply run away or chosen to put someone on 'Ignore' rather than reply. If that is the case, such posts could not be further from the truth. I work night shifts and this has been a very busy time.  Believe it or not, I don't live my life online. I have other things to do.

 

I am also sick and tired of ridiculous claims made by some members, one in particular that I am a Jew Hater or a Gay Hater (relating to a different thread). In this particular thread, I have no hatred of Jews but I do have a hatred of people who kill innocent civillians - be they Israeli's, Hamas or any other murderous group. I am not interested in anyone's religion and do not separate them on that basis.

 

The Israeli government's claims that it is defending itself against Hamas following the horrendous attacks on Israeli civillians on 7th October, lost their legitimacy long ago.  It may be extremely difficult to get to Hamas directly - that does not excuse the killing of thousands of cilviilans, including a very high perecntage of women and children.  I stand by my suggestion that what Netanyahu really wants is the destruction of Gaza and rid of all Palestinians.  I believe that if he had free rein and was not constrained by Israel's ties to the US, he would have no problem in commiting Genocide - he's not far of doing that now.

 

The arrival of the internet and forums like this has brought about a knowledge that I am sure, some of us wished we never had.  That is that there are people out there with very strange, and in some cases dangerous, opinions.  Well balanced people know who the weirdos are but these odd balls will never/can't see why their opinions are just not at odds with rational thinking, they are dangerous.

 

The problem with the internet/forums like this is that by their very fairness and equity, they give voice to these people and spread their message.

 

My worries about the dangers of these 'differences' between people arose from 2 momentous events in my lifetime - the rise of Trump and Covid 19.  There were always going to be different opinions between people - that's normal.  What I'm refering to here is dangerous thoughts and misleading information.  Broadly, very broadly speaking, it appears that people can be separated into 2 groups - mainstream and dangerous oddballs.  Mainstream thinkers may have minor differences but usually align on most matters for the greater good. 

 

Oddballs spread their messages to others and their thinking has lead to deaths, injuries and general hatred between both individiuals and groups.

 

To explain the broad separation I am referring to and relating it directly to this topic, I find that the type of people who are supporting Israel's actions here are also very likely to be Trump supporters, anti vaxxers and general conspiracy theorists.  There will be exceptions which is why I say 'broad'.

 

There is no arguing with these people, show them a fact that disproves their claims and they will claim its false or try to dis the source.  Never, ever do the back down. 

 

I have been aware of the situation in Israel most of my life - wars, bombings, murders, land grabs and other heinous acts have never been far from the news from Israel for as long as I can remember. The situation has always gone from simmer to boil to varying degrees.

 

The facts here are that Hamas DID carry out a horrific and sick attack on 7th October but that Israel's response has been to collectively punish the Palestinian population en mass.  There are many things I could use to illustrate that but one is perhaps, the clearest example.

 

Today on BBC TV News, an Israeli spokesman claimed Israel warns civillians and gives them every chance to move before an attack takes place. Well, just over a week ago, Israel told civillians to head to the Rafah City area, one day later they bombed the entire area.

 

There is no argument, in my opinion Israel is acting Genocidally and that will backfire in the future - it will not achieve its aims. It will in fact, create thousands of future militants. If a member of your family had murdered someone, would it be acceptable for your entire family to be tried, convicted and hung for that crime?  How would you feel about that?

 

For the reasons above, I am no longer going to post on this matter, I refuse to debate with oddballs, its a complete waste of time and achieves nothing. A closed mind cannot be educated - especially when it refuses to listen.

 

However, to those of you who make claims in support of Israel but want to know the truth, I suggest you research the history of Israel/Palestine for around 100 years - in particular take a look at the British & French UN mandates.

 

My own country and its colonialism/meddling has an awful lot to answer for in the historic context that set the scene for the current situation in Palestine - yes Palestine, because that is in fact, the name of the area in dispute.

 

The UK has also commited despicable crimes againt both Jews and Palestinians - that will become apparent if you do your research properly.

Its Christmas so will keep things polite...........

 

Most of your post is untrue off topic garbage riddled with insults and inflammatory comments that deserve nothing better than binning.

 

The remainder of your post that actually deals with Hamas/Israel is uninformed, ignorantly devoid of facts, arrogant and clearly shows a mind that has fallen hook line and sinker by a very narrow range of media.

 

Seeing as you admitted you don't bother reading posts, I won't bother spending any more time on you. Be gone.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Not according to what I have been notified of.  But if you are correct, then that's fine, I won't have been accused of dodging the questions as I was before - by someone who seemed to think he could demand immediate replies.

 

More BS.