Tourists Having to File a Thai Tax Return

[koolkarl]

In this country, you are either an immigrant, a citizen or a tourist.  As most of you are aware, anyone staying here more than 180 days a year is considered a tax resident and must file a tax return reporting any incoming remittances to Thailand.  Most retirees are not immigrants or citizens.  What is the legality of a tourist having to file a tax return here?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

In this country, you are either an immigrant, a citizen or a tourist.  As most of you are aware, anyone staying here more than 180 days a year is considered a tax resident and must file a tax return reporting any incoming remittances to Thailand.  Most retirees are not immigrants or citizens.  What is the legality of a tourist having to file a tax return here?

If they have assessible income here and remain here for over 180 days per tax year, yes. Playing semantics and word games with titles doesn't change the facts.

[DrJack54]

Another ridiculous thread regarding a fairytale.

Surely these threads belong in "banking finance" forum where pretend tax experts can knock themselves out

[Tom H]

Tax residency is different than immigrant status. Dont mix things.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, koolkarl said:

In this country, you are either an immigrant, a citizen or a tourist.  As most of you are aware, anyone staying here more than 180 days a year is considered a tax resident and must file a tax return reporting any incoming remittances to Thailand.  Most retirees are not immigrants or citizens.  What is the legality of a tourist having to file a tax return here?

Good Question.  Ignore the ignorant comments from people who have no idea about the intricate technicalities of Laws - especially in Thailand. As we all know, many things are done and not done in Thailand that are not 'technically compliant' with the Law.  Just get to know a Thai Lawyer and have a chat - they will tell you of many examples.  Unlike in the West where the legal system is built on precedents and interpretations, that 'rigour' is not undertaken in Thailand - often including if the matter goes to the Thai Supreme Court.

 

Speaking in legalese - just for the brain experiment - I would say that the Thai technical definition of a tax resident in Thailand Law is specifically referring to the Residents and Citizens of Thailand that that are residing in Thailand for over 180 days per year - thereby excluding those Thai Residents and Citizens that live (and work) in another country for more than 180 days in a year.  Further, I would say that anyone residing in Thailand who is not a Resident or a Citizen, and does not have a Visa with a Work/Business Permit, cannot technically be a tax resident. IMO this would especially apply to those on a Retirement Visa/Extension, because that Visa excludes them working or earning money in any form.  Likewise, those with a Marriage Visa/Extension are also exlcuded from working or earning money in any form, unless that apply and get a Work/Busines Permit. 

 

Interesting question - next time we talk, I will ask my Thai lawyer contact what he thinks, and if he is aware of this matter having been tested in a Court before.  Although I would say it is very likely that it has not been tested, because it would be vcery difficult for an Expat to have legal standing in regards to such an issue, if it had been then tested and rule upon then some Expats would know about it.  I would say that only the Thai RD would have had the legal standing in the past to lodge such a court matter. However, if an Expat is formally advised in writing by any Thai Authority that they are required to lodge a tax return and are liable to pay income taxes, then they would have standing in a Thai Court (maybe).  Either way, if not already ruled upon, it would probably take years for a decision to be made.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good Question.  Ignore the ignorant comments from people who have no idea about the intricate technicalities of Laws - especially in Thailand. As we all know, many things are done and not done in Thailand that are not 'technically compliant' with the Law.  Just get to know a Thai Lawyer and have a chat - they will tell you of many examples.  Unlike in the West where the legal system is built on precedents and interpretations, that 'rigour' is not undertaken in Thailand - often including if the matter goes to the Thai Supreme Court.

 

Speaking in legalese - just for the brain experiment - I would say that the Thai technical definition of a tax resident in Thailand Law is specifically referring to the Residents and Citizens of Thailand that that are residing in Thailand for over 180 days per year - thereby excluding those Thai Residents and Citizens that live (and work) in another country for more than 180 days in a year.  Further, I would say that anyone residing in Thailand who is not a Resident or a Citizen, and does not have a Visa with a Work/Business Permit, cannot technically be a tax resident. IMO this would especially apply to those on a Retirement Visa/Extension, because that Visa excludes them working or earning money in any form.  Likewise, those with a Marriage Visa/Extension are also exlcuded from working or earning money in any form, unless that apply and get a Work/Busines Permit. 

 

Interesting question - next time we talk, I will ask my Thai lawyer contact what he thinks, and if he is aware of this matter having been tested in a Court before.  Although I would say it is very likely that it has not been tested, because it would be vcery difficult for an Expat to have legal standing in regards to such an issue, if it had been then tested and rule upon then some Expats would know about it.  I would say that only the Thai RD would have had the legal standing in the past to lodge such a court matter. However, if an Expat is formally advised in writing by any Thai Authority that they are required to lodge a tax return and are liable to pay income taxes, then they would have standing in a Thai Court (maybe).  Either way, if not already ruled upon, it would probably take years for a decision to be made.

Semantics and word games, there is a near universal definition of what is a Tax Resident which has no bearing or relationship on or with Immigration status or lack of..

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Semantics and word games, there is a near universal definition of what is a Tax Resident which has no bearing or relationship on or with Immigration status or lack of..

If this is all too complex and/or boring for you - I suggest you just stay out of it.  

 

Legal technicalities are extremely complex - and in Thailand they are massive - because of the lack of a 'common law' foundation - and I find them fascinating. In the West - stemming from UK Laws that go back to King Henry - Precedents are everything (Google quote):

"According to the doctrine of precedent, a court is bound by the decisions of a court above it and, usually, by a court of equivalent standing. Superior courts have the power to overrule decisions of lower courts and in certain cases to overrule their own decisions."

 

That statement above does not apply in the Thailand Legal system. There is a Thai lawyer (USA bloke - now Thai Citizen) who has a youtube channel and in one of his vlogs he explains it all in detail. Not sure if he is 'approved' on this forum - but if you look for the words 'lawyer integrity thailand legal' you should find him. It was a while ago - but if you are interested in this area then it is worth the look.

 

If you are not at all interested in this stuff - then see sentance one above. 

 

[Lite Beer]

3 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Another ridiculous thread regarding a fairytale.

Surely these threads belong in "banking finance" forum where pretend tax experts can knock themselves out

Or maybe the pub forum with the rest of the bar stool nonsense.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If this is all too complex and/or boring for you - I suggest you just stay out of it.  

 

Legal technicalities are extremely complex - and in Thailand they are massive - because of the lack of a 'common law' foundation - and I find them fascinating. In the West - stemming from UK Laws that go back to King Henry - Precedents are everything (Google quote):

"According to the doctrine of precedent, a court is bound by the decisions of a court above it and, usually, by a court of equivalent standing. Superior courts have the power to overrule decisions of lower courts and in certain cases to overrule their own decisions."

 

That statement above does not apply in the Thailand Legal system. There is a Thai lawyer (USA bloke - now Thai Citizen) who has a youtube channel and in one of his vlogs he explains it all in detail. Not sure if he is 'approved' on this forum - but if you look for the words 'lawyer integrity thailand legal' you should find him. It was a while ago - but if you are interested in this area then it is worth the look.

 

If you are not at all interested in this stuff - then see sentance one above. 

 

 

Thai law is based on, I'll say that again, based on UK civil law but that basing does not require it to adopt all the facilities of UK or any other country's format for law. For example, the system of precedent does not have to apply here, just because it applies in some other countries. Also, the crown is able to enact new laws here which is not something that the crown would do in say the UK.

 

Read this and then come back to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Thailand#:~:text=The laws of Thailand are,see also world legal systems).

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Thai law is based on, I'll say that again, based on UK civil law but that basing does not require it to adopt all the facilities of UK or any other country's format for law. For example, the system of precedent does not have to apply here, just because it applies in some other countries. Also, the crown is able to enact new laws here which is not something that the crown would do in say the UK.

 

Read this and then come back to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Thailand#:~:text=The laws of Thailand are,see also world legal systems).

After you have found and listened to that lawyer explain the system here 

[Maestro]

The forum "Thai Visas, Residency, and Work Permits" is the wrong place for this topic. As there is no separate forum for Personal Income Tax, I am moving it to

   > Thailand General Chat

       > General Topics

 

[Expat68]

19 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good Question.  Ignore the ignorant comments from people who have no idea about the intricate technicalities of Laws - especially in Thailand. As we all know, many things are done and not done in Thailand that are not 'technically compliant' with the Law.  Just get to know a Thai Lawyer and have a chat - they will tell you of many examples.  Unlike in the West where the legal system is built on precedents and interpretations, that 'rigour' is not undertaken in Thailand - often including if the matter goes to the Thai Supreme Court.

 

Speaking in legalese - just for the brain experiment - I would say that the Thai technical definition of a tax resident in Thailand Law is specifically referring to the Residents and Citizens of Thailand that that are residing in Thailand for over 180 days per year - thereby excluding those Thai Residents and Citizens that live (and work) in another country for more than 180 days in a year.  Further, I would say that anyone residing in Thailand who is not a Resident or a Citizen, and does not have a Visa with a Work/Business Permit, cannot technically be a tax resident. IMO this would especially apply to those on a Retirement Visa/Extension, because that Visa excludes them working or earning money in any form.  Likewise, those with a Marriage Visa/Extension are also exlcuded from working or earning money in any form, unless that apply and get a Work/Busines Permit. 

 

Interesting question - next time we talk, I will ask my Thai lawyer contact what he thinks, and if he is aware of this matter having been tested in a Court before.  Although I would say it is very likely that it has not been tested, because it would be vcery difficult for an Expat to have legal standing in regards to such an issue, if it had been then tested and rule upon then some Expats would know about it.  I would say that only the Thai RD would have had the legal standing in the past to lodge such a court matter. However, if an Expat is formally advised in writing by any Thai Authority that they are required to lodge a tax return and are liable to pay income taxes, then they would have standing in a Thai Court (maybe).  Either way, if not already ruled upon, it would probably take years for a decision to be made.

I have a tax I'd no. Every year I go to the local tax office and reclaim tax on my bank account. Never any issues 

[Surasak]

My take on all this tax nonsense, is to sit back and wait for the Thai Revenue Dept to send a request of my earnings. If I get one, we will see what the demand is. If I don't..............

 

[proton]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

I have a tax I'd no. Every year I go to the local tax office and reclaim tax on my bank account. Never any issues 

why do you have to do it every year? I did it once then the bank never stopped tax after that. The RD sent me a tax return one year, threw it away and never got another one.

[DJ54]

21 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

After you have found and listened to that lawyer explain the system here 

I follow his vlog and he basically states in speculation and nothing firm. A wait and see situation as nothing firm has been posted. Ben is a US lawyer and gives good advice but as far as this new Thailand tax he is speculating… so everyone is wait and see … not to panic … his guess is a large number of expats won’t be affected….

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, Expat68 said:

I have a tax I'd no. Every year I go to the local tax office and reclaim tax on my bank account. Never any issues 

Good luck to you - I hope that never changes for you.

 

[Old Croc]

For those who have trouble understanding the difference between Immigration residency and Tax residency the ATO details their interpretation here: 

 

 

Your tax residency | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Expat68 said:

I have a tax I'd no. Every year I go to the local tax office and reclaim tax on my bank account. Never any issues 

Excellent. Just remember though that when you do that next year, you will also need to report all your income into Thailand and account for it, not just reclaim the tax on interest. If you don't you will have filed an incomplete return which will be fraudulent.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Surasak said:

My take on all this tax nonsense, is to sit back and wait for the Thai Revenue Dept to send a request of my earnings. If I get one, we will see what the demand is. If I don't..............

 

That is fine and it is up to you - and anyone else can do the same if they wish.

But since you made that public announcement, let me say to you and everyone reading this, why that is very 'dangerous'.

 

Failure to lodge a tax return when lodging one is required, is a serious fine for each and every year, plus you must pay all backdated taxes they calculate, plus it involves backdated interest charged on any amounts deemed that should have been paid. It will involve your Passport being blocked to stop you leaving the country, can result in immediate detention, can result in criminal charges and Court appearances and jail time, and it can result in deportation for Expats.

Unlike most other things, were being 'caught' means a punishment of that occurence (like not wearing a helmet), not lodging tax returns and not paying income taxes, is an extremely harsh punishemnt - and they will go back over every year since 2024.

TRhis is not like staying illegally in the country (no Visa extensions etc.) and the information is available on the net.

 

If that is your plan over the next 3-5-10 years, then that is up to you - but now you know what the downsides are.

That is all I am doing mate - pointing out things that I am aware of - learning things I am not aware of - contributing.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

31 minutes ago, DJ54 said:

I follow his vlog and he basically states in speculation and nothing firm. A wait and see situation as nothing firm has been posted. Ben is a US lawyer and gives good advice but as far as this new Thailand tax he is speculating… so everyone is wait and see … not to panic … his guess is a large number of expats won’t be affected….

Correct - me too.  I also get newsletters and emails from lawyers.  I figured a long time ago that I had no rights, and it would be wise to learn and understand all the laws here. 

 

But I was not referring to his advice about whether the income tax rule change will mean Expats will have to pay income taxes as claimed in many media stories. I was referring to the vlog he made a while ago that explained how the Thai legal system works - especially its ignoring of legal precedents.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Excellent. Just remember though that when you do that next year, you will also need to report all your income into Thailand and account for it, not just reclaim the tax on interest. If you don't you will have filed an incomplete return which will be fraudulent.

Good advice mate. Many Expats have been doing the wrong things and when they get into trouble, some wai wai and 'payment' will often make the problem go away. The Thai Tax Dept will not be doing that for 'ordinary' people (only the big boys down at the Amari hotel). The Thai RD is not like the Immigration system - and it is full of Officers willing to look the other way and make exemptions etc. There are no 'Agents' as such, who can 'grease the wheel' and make things move in Thai RD.  The best you can get is a Thai certified tax accountant - but just like for ordinary people, if they break the rules and get caught, they are severely punished (their career and business is over).  That was all explained to me by a Thai lawyer some time ago. Yes he was drumming up business - but nothing I have seen or heard since back then suggests that advice was wrong.

[TheAppletons]

I like this approach.

 

We should all be beating the drum loudly that tourists will have to file Thai income taxes.

 

Hit 'em where it hurts - tourism - and let's see how quickly flip turns to flop.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

I like this approach.

 

We should all be beating the drum loudly that tourists will have to file Thai income taxes.

 

Hit 'em where it hurts - tourism - and let's see how quickly flip turns to flop.

Sure, but then we'll end up in a banal debate about the definition of what is a tourist which has nothing to do with any of this. Once again, Immigration status and tax status are TOTALLY different things that are not joined in any way there is no connection between the two things. So calling a person a tourist or a resident or anything else, simply isn't helpful for anyone or any thing.

[TheAppletons]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sure, but then we'll end up in a banal debate about the definition of what is a tourist which has nothing to do with any of this. Once again, Immigration status and tax status are TOTALLY different things that are not joined in any way there is no connection between the two things. So calling a person a tourist or a resident or anything else, simply isn't helpful for anyone or any thing.

 

  No kidding, genius. 

 

  If you weren't so invested in arguing every nuance of this issue 50 times a day, you'd have realized I was making a joke about publicizing that actual week long tourists would have to file income tax forms as a way to incite panic in the Thai government. 

 

WHOOOOOSH!

 

 

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  No kidding, genius. 

 

  If you weren't so invested in arguing every nuance of this issue 50 times a day, you'd have realized I was making a joke about publicizing that actual week long tourists would have to file income tax forms as a way to incite panic in the Thai government. 

 

WHOOOOOSH!

 

 

Hmm, a joke you say, best not give up your day job in that case because a career as a comedian isn't for you!

[Mike Lister]

34 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  No kidding, genius. 

 

  If you weren't so invested in arguing every nuance of this issue 50 times a day, you'd have realized I was making a joke about publicizing that actual week long tourists would have to file income tax forms as a way to incite panic in the Thai government. 

 

WHOOOOOSH!

 

 

Let me give a more measured reply to what you have said.

 

Yesterday, a long standing poster who is articulate and has lived in Thailand for many years, stated that he would not become tax resident here. That poster is very intelligent yet he thought that to become tax resident he had to take specific action which he intended to avoid. It was necessary to explain that in order to become tax resident, no action had to be taken other than to not leave the country for 180 days. 

 

The fact is that huge numbers of people on AN have no basic understanding about what is involved or required regarding taxation, hence correcting these misunderstanding, which occur daily, is important, I think. If you see that as arguing every nuance then you haven't been paying as much attention to what is being said and the question being asked as I and others have. Perhaps that is because you personally do understand taxation and finance and assume that others know a similar amount as you do. 

 

I agree the debates have been banal at times, unnecessary hyped towards pessimism and that some posters with a little knowledge have unjustifiably mis represented themselves as experts. The bottom line is that people are slowly begining to understand the issues and the parts of the equation that are based on fact but that takes time and patience.

[crazykopite]

All this is total BS ,those who are worried can I suggest you transfer at least 6 months of savings from your overseas account into your Thai account by 31 December 2023  this should be enough time for the Thai government to do a massive u turn once the realise that they’ve made a huge mistake . As a U.K. taxpayer I pay income tax on my pensions every month the U.K. and Thailand have a tax agreement nevertheless I have always transferred a large chunk of money to my Thai bank accounts every December from my U.K. savings accounts to avoid paying more tax on interest earned in the U.K.

Edited November 29, 2023 by crazykopite

[Expat68]

3 hours ago, proton said:

why do you have to do it every year? I did it once then the bank never stopped tax after that. The RD sent me a tax return one year, threw it away and never got another one.

Maybe because very few expats where I live, not tourist city

[Expat68]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Excellent. Just remember though that when you do that next year, you will also need to report all your income into Thailand and account for it, not just reclaim the tax on interest. If you don't you will have filed an incomplete return which will be fraudulent.

Year after next actually. Thai tax year is January - December 

[chilly07]

On 11/28/2023 at 12:02 PM, Mike Lister said:

Semantics and word games, there is a near universal definition of what is a Tax Resident which has no bearing or relationship on or with Immigration status or lack of..

Except HMRC definition places me as tax resident in the UK as I had tax relief on my pension contributions which I must pay back as I receive my pension payments. Can't be tax resident in more than one country!