Israel and Hamas fight house-to-house battles across Gaza

[Morch]

2 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

 

I consider Israel's policy to be " extremist " under the current Nethanyahu government . ( settlers ) . This government is giving the directives to the IDF , who , following orders , becomes extremist as well . Of course , I get your point , not all individual soldiers are extremists ,  but , what they are ordered to do ( destruction of Gaza ) is extreme .

The destruction is extreme , the death toll of the civilian population is extremely high and unnecessary in my point of view .

To reach their goal , the complete destruction of Hamas ( illusory anyway ), the Israelis are not shy to take extreme measures .

If you deny this , you are blind .

 

" Hamas in Gaza after a cross-border rampage by the enclave's ruling Islamist group on Oct. 7. At least 17,177 Palestinians have been killed since then, according to Gaza Health Ministry figures, while 1,200 people were killed in the Hamas incursion into Israel, according to Israeli tallies. "

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/

 

It will be difficult to know exactly how many active Hamas members have been killed , but , most dead people were no active members of the Hamas .

 

 

 

 

 

I think there is a difference between the Israeli government policy in the West Bank (which does represent the agenda and interests of extreme elements), and it's current policy in the Gaza Strip vs. Hamas. IMO, with regard to the latter - pretty much any Israeli government would act the same. Some support for this could be seen by Centrist opposition leaders joining the government (and more importantly, the war cabinet) as an temporary, ad-hoc, wartime emergency measure.

 

I agree that the actions of the IDF in the Gaza Strip may seem 'extreme'. Not that they represent an extremist ideology. Considering the trigger for Israel's offensive, it could have been way worse than that. And while the casualty figures and visuals are what they are - if things are considered in a more level headed manner, and compared to other instances, some perspective may emerge.

 

The IDF's estimate (from last week, if not mistaken) was that about 5000 of the casualties were Hamas men. If so, it would place the civilian to combatant casualty ratios at about 2:1. This is pretty similar to figures from previous major operation in the Gaza Strip. Could be wrong, but don't think that comparable operations by other armies were very different, or much better, in this regard. Wars aren't pretty.

 

You say that the death toll is not necessary to achieve Israel's goals - would you care to explain the alternatives as you see them?

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

 

But most of the casualties in the Gaza strip were ...

 

I don't think anyone seriously argues otherwise.

 

There is no getting around this. Wars in densely populated urban setting carry a whole lot of civilian deaths.

There were no such casualty lists on 6/10.

 

The issue is more one of intent.

Israel does not specifically target civilians.

Hamas does.

[placnx]

22 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Likely how? Why? Nothing. Just more wishful thinking on your part.

How? Ar first individual countries will take action. The US will be the last to agree on collective action. It may take a few years, with the big assumption that Trump does not return to power.

Why? Israel will refuse to remove settlers from the West Bank to permit a viable two-state solution.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, placnx said:

How? Ar first individual countries will take action. The US will be the last to agree on collective action. It may take a few years, with the big assumption that Trump does not return to power.

Why? Israel will refuse to remove settlers from the West Bank to permit a viable two-state solution.

 

You say it is likely. You do not demonstrate how and why. Your comments are wishful thinking, not rational analysis, nor fact based.

These sort of comments appear on these topics each and every time related matters are discussed - not much real traction or effect in the real world. As pointed out, most of what this does is strengthen right-wing elements in Israel.

 

There is no two-state solution without the Palestinians being ready and willing to commit. That you refer to Israel alone is preposterous.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Morch

[Nick Carter icp]

9 minutes ago, placnx said:

How? Ar first individual countries will take action. The US will be the last to agree on collective action. It may take a few years, with the big assumption that Trump does not return to power.

Why? Israel will refuse to remove settlers from the West Bank to permit a viable two-state solution.

 

   Why would the Settlers have to be removed ?

[Morch]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Why would the Settlers have to be removed ?

 

Because.

[placnx]

21 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There were numerous comments referencing the Gaza Strip as a 'concentration camp' made on these topics and past one. That you deny it, or claim not to have seen any doesn't change that. Even the 'open prison' bit is more about sensationalism. It's not like the Gaza Strip was always under a blockade - it is in place because of Hamas actions and agenda. Also, it is maintained by Egypt as well.

 

If you want to claim that UNGA and other UN bodies are objective, bias free and do not routinely push anti-Israeli agendas - that's your choice. It does not reflect reality.

I am not referring the comments about "concentration camp" on this or any other thread on this forum, which contains a lot of intemporate and propagandistic comments. International bodies, etc, quoted on BBC have often referred to Gaza as an "open air prison", due to Israel's control or borders directly or indirectly. That has become obvious to the world lately when the meager aid through Rafah was delayed by Israeli inspections.

 

UNGA is the world.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, placnx said:

I am not referring the comments about "concentration camp" on this or any other thread on this forum, which contains a lot of intemporate and propagandistic comments. International bodies, etc, quoted on BBC have often referred to Gaza as an "open air prison", due to Israel's control or borders directly or indirectly. That has become obvious to the world lately when the meager aid through Rafah was delayed by Israeli inspections.

 

UNGA is the world.

 

On that...pffft. It's just a catchy slogan which ignores Hamas as a factor in this.

The Gaza Strip was not always under blockade. This came about because of something.

Wonder what that could be.

[placnx]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Sure. Boycott. BDS. How long this been going on? What actual effect did it achieve? Not much, other than directly serving Israel's right-wing elements. Every topic like this it gets pulled out, aired, and much hopes invested that 'this time...' - yeah, well.

 

I heard that a lot more people are joining Jewish Voice for Peace, a major advocate for BDS. Maybe this time Germans will feel less guilty about the Holocaust when they can see Nakba 2 unfolding.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, placnx said:

I heard that a lot more people are joining Jewish Voice for Peace, a major advocate for BDS. Maybe this time Germans will feel less guilty about the Holocaust when they can see Nakba 2 unfolding.

 

Oh, 'you heard'. That's settled then.

As for your Nakba 2 hyperbole - there is none such.

[nobodysfriend]

32 minutes ago, Morch said:

You say that the death toll is not necessary to achieve Israel's goals - would you care to explain the alternatives as you see them?

 

 Israel wants Hamas to disappear completely .

Won't happen .

Why not just discredit them by showing the atrocities they committed in Israel on the 7th to the world ( press ) ?

And  they are guilty of sacrificing thousands of ( their own ) people .

If nobody wants to deal with the any more , they will disappear alone .

I know that , with the support they receive from Iran and Hesbollah etc it will be difficult ...

 Again , they knew how Israel would react to their attack BEFORE they committed their atrocities on the 7th .

This war was declared after their attack .

If they would not have done this , there would have been no war and more than 10000 of their own

people dead , and , of course , the people they murdered in Israel would not have died .

That , imo , is more than enough to internationally treat them as undesirable pariahs and avoid any kind of relations to them ...

Need to convince all of their allies that one cannot deal with people who deliberately caused the death of so many muslims ...

Isolate them .

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

 

 Israel wants Hamas to disappear completely .

Won't happen .

Why not just discredit them by showing the atrocities they committed in Israel on the 7th to the world ( press ) ?

And  they are guilty of sacrificing thousands of ( their own ) people .

If nobody wants to deal with the any more , they will disappear alone .

I know that , with the support they receive from Iran and Hesbollah etc it will be difficult ...

 Again , they knew how Israel would react to their attack BEFORE they committed their atrocities on the 7th .

This war was declared after their attack .

If they would not have done this , there would have been no war and more than 10000 of their own

people dead , and , of course , the people they murdered in Israel would not have died .

That , imo , is more than enough to internationally treat them as undesirable pariahs and avoid any kind of relations to them ...

Need to convince all of their allies that one cannot deal with people who deliberately caused the death of so many muslims ...

Isolate them .

 

Hamas killed 1200 Israelis in a single day. Took over 200 hostages.

I don't think that 'ignoring' them would have sent the message you imagine, or have broadcasted anything but weakness.

This is the ME, not the EU.

 

How do you mean 'will not want to deal with them'? Who? Iran, Hezbollah, Turkey, Qatar? Why wouldn't they?

 

Just the hostages issue alone would mean that they'd have to be 'dealt' with in order to negotiate.

 

I think they would be easier to ignore after being crushed some.

Maybe can't 'destroy' them fully, but hit them hard enough to make them less relevant, is.

[bignok]

Can't say I care. Israel should smash them.

[metisdead]

An off topic deflection post contravening our Community Standards has been removed. 

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Stargeezr said:

Hamas is still hiding amongst Gaza people and sending their rockets from areas

that are near places where the population is at as well. how can I have sympathy for Palistinians

if Hamas is still being the terrorists that they are, and fighting the way they are? 

Good Luck to the Israel military , the thought of using tons of sea water to flood the Hamas tunnels

sounds like a great idea. IMO

  

No sympathy for children being blown up then? Are they Hamas, do they have a choice?

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

The carnage would end immediately if Hamas were to surrender.

That's not going to happen, ever. If israel could be trusted to treat prisoners properly, they might, but we have been hearing all the horror stories about how israel treats Palestinians in their jails, and that's just Palestinian children held without trial, without access to a lawyer, without even a specific charge.

When israel treats child prisoners so cruelly, Hamas knows that if they surrendered their treatment would be a thousand times worse, so for them it's a fight to the death, taking as many israelis with them as possible and so far managing more than a few of those.

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's not going to happen, ever. If israel could be trusted to treat prisoners properly, they might, but we have been hearing all the horror stories about how israel treats Palestinians in their jails, and that's just Palestinian children held without trial, without access to a lawyer, without even a specific charge.

When israel treats child prisoners so cruelly, Hamas knows that if they surrendered their treatment would be a thousand times worse, so for them it's a fight to the death, taking as many israelis with them as possible and so far managing more than a few of those.

Except for those who surrender. There seems to be a lot of them.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No sympathy for children being blown up then? Are they Hamas, do they have a choice?

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Them children wouldn't be getting 'blown apart' had Hamas refrained from the 7/10 attack.

Them children wouldn't be getting 'blown apart' had Hamas offered them safety and shelter in its tunnels.

As for sympathy, don't think you expressed a whole lot of that for them Israeli children murdered on 7/10.

Maybe try to peddle your faux moral outrage on forums where your comments and views are less known.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's not going to happen, ever. If israel could be trusted to treat prisoners properly, they might, but we have been hearing all the horror stories about how israel treats Palestinians in their jails, and that's just Palestinian children held without trial, without access to a lawyer, without even a specific charge.

When israel treats child prisoners so cruelly, Hamas knows that if they surrendered their treatment would be a thousand times worse, so for them it's a fight to the death, taking as many israelis with them as possible and so far managing more than a few of those.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Is the above reasoning your opinion? Something Hamas said? Something you 'heard on AJ'?

 

You are aware that there are recent pictures of Hamas men surrendering to IDF forces, right? Maybe they didn't get your memo, or maybe they don't watch AJ.

 

Other than that, what  you present as Hamas's positions fits the bill - essentially, it means 'better-that-the-population-gets-bombed-rather-than-we-going-to-prison".

[simple1]

On 12/8/2023 at 12:36 PM, Wobblybob said:

Some of the diabetic Gazans you must be referring to?

 

 

 

The oppressor is always better off then the oppressed. Hamas personnel would have better access to food and so on than the general population of Gaza. However, your comment is yet another example of ignorance from some members.

[Wobblybob]

15 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

The oppressor is always better off then the oppressed. Hamas personnel would have better access to food and so on than the general population of Gaza. However, your comment is yet another example of ignorance from some members.

Thanks for insult, but it is to be expected from the intolerant left and the 'free Palestine' cult.

[Bkk Brian]

27 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

The oppressor is always better off then the oppressed. Hamas personnel would have better access to food and so on than the general population of Gaza. However, your comment is yet another example of ignorance from some members.

The IDF may put this one on a diet, what do you think?

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

The IDF may put this one on a diet, what do you think?

 

Could be a thyroid disorder. 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

The oppressor is always better off then the oppressed. Hamas personnel would have better access to food and so on than the general population of Gaza. However, your comment is yet another example of ignorance from some members.

 

IMO, 'better access' is a rather roundabout way to acknowledge Hamas theft of UN supplies, taking cuts from  anything that goes into the Gaza Strip, and so on. Hamas members (and for some, families) also have 'better access' to shelters, for example. That's without counting families of higher ups moved abroad, or them guys living the life in Qatar.

 

But other than that, 'chubby' was actually a slang for Gazans, used by Palestinians in the West Bank. I think it had to do with days of old, when the Gazans were seen as traders, orchard owners and so on - compared to the more 'hard working' Palestinians of the West Bank. Don't know if it's still in use, though.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Morch

[simple1]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The IDF may put this one on a diet, what do you think?

 

Cannot understand why someone would post such pathetic commentary, though not unexpected.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Except for those who surrender. There seems to be a lot of them.

Link?

[simple1]

2 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Thanks for insult, but it is to be expected from the intolerant left and the 'free Palestine' cult.

Neither a member of the 'intolerant left' or 'free Palestine cult'. Hopefully you can learn from Morchs' posts which are based on local knowledge.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Cannot understand why someone would post such pathetic commentary, though not unexpected.

What a despicable, vile comment by the poster you quoted. That guy is a writer, as reported on Al Jazeera.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Cannot understand why someone would post such pathetic commentary, though not unexpected.

Well I just don't think even the IDF has enough food supplies to keep him going. Sorry

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Except for those who surrender. There seems to be a lot of them.

Have you been reading israeli propaganda again?