Expat vs Economic migrant

[Sheryl]

6 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 

 

When we refer to economic migrants, (not ecomonic), we are usually referring to people who move for better job opportunities and a better standard of living through earnings potential in a new country.

 

You seem to be talking about people relocating that have come to Thailand underfunded, the two are not the same.

 

I wouldn't class people who come here underfunded, without insurance, rely on GoFundMe or enough cash, as economic migrants. I would class them as feckless.

 

If you are Canadian, and you know better, enlighten us!

 

 

 

However, some people who retired  here adequately funded are now not, due to a combination of rises in the Thai cost of living (which has been considerable in the last 2 decades) and worsening of the exchange rate.  By the time all this hits, they are usually 70+, consider Thailand their home, may have a Thai family. So while it is easy to say they should nto be here/should go home, in practice far from easy for them to do.

 

The other considerable group (with some overlap with the above) are those who completely omitted health care from their financial planning, and by the time they figure out that it needs to be factored in, are no longer insurable. Or (due to the above) can't afford insurance.

 

I'm not saying either group planned well  -- I worked to the age of 71 precisely because my planning assumed inflation, need to cushion for currency fluctuations, and rising health care needs/insurance costs as I aged.  Most of those in difficulty now retired too early, basing their decision on current cost of living in Thailand, their current state of health  and not considering the likelihood both would change. But I think that  stops short of "feckless". 

 

The completely feckless folk come here already inadequately funded. They exist but numbers not huge. 

 

The others just did not foresee or plan on the magnitude of changes that might (and did) occur over the long term. In retrospect an error,  but I would nto be too harsh on them. Lost of people, including ones who never leave their home countries, do nto know how to plan adequately for long term retirement.  (It does irritate me, though when people who retired in their 50's tell me I am "luckier" than they are financially. Luck had nothing to do with it, I'd be in their financial shoes had I retired that soon! Ditto people who've been abroad for a long time tell me I am lucky to have good insurance because they can't get a policy due to pre-existing problems ...  If I had left health insurance until now, I would have trouble getting a policy too. I'm well insured because I took out insurance at the start, at a younger age and in good health).

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, MarkyM3 said:

I definitely feel the proposed income benchmark needs to take account of liquid assets like savings (property isn't liquid) in the qualification criteria where the person is retired. It should be be tweaked to do so, if it doesn't already. That way, most financially secure retirees would be able bring their wives to the UK.

 

But retirees are hardly the focus of this new policy. It's come about because the UK has seen its population increase by 15%+ over the last 20 years. Last year's net migration figures of 750k have prompted action since it's not sustainable on a small island. Housing and infrastructure is creaking at the seams. The government of the last 10+ years was elected on a manifesto pledge of keeping net migration under 100k pa, something it's never met. 

 

Bear in mind the median income in the UK is just under 35k and the new 38k benchmark is being staggered over 2 years - 29k in 2024 and 38k in 2025. The idea is too add skilled people to the working population where a UK citizen can't be found to perform the work rather than allowing employers to suppress wages and use imported cheap labour.   

 

 

Retirees are not the focus of the policy  but they are badly affected by it.

 

It would be easy enough to build in an exception f(or lower threshold) or people with UK citizenship from birth who are now aged over say 65. The impact in terms of numbers would be minimal and it would avoid considerable hardship for retirees.

 

 

[herfiehandbag]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:51 AM, Mike Lister said:

Interestingly, expats having more than a certain level of income and capital are frequently told that Thailand is no place for them either, which begets the question, who should be living here?

Interestingly (again) this forum, and by extension I suppose the expatriate community in Thailand, if not overrun with certainly has a significant number of people who rather take it upon themselves to act as an arbiter of who should and should not live here. Invariably it seems to be based on wealth - I think of it as the Harry Enfield syndrome - you know the TV sketches with the punchline "oiy am considerably richer than you!"

 

I can't say that I recall anyone boasting of intending to rely on "go fund me", although there is no shortage of pungent self satisfied comments when we read reports of people who find themselves in that unfortunate position; nor am I sure that deciding that one's pension or other funds will go "further" in Thailand makes one an "economic migrant"!

 

As for teaching English in Thailand, there are probably as many different motives as there are individuals. I doubt very much whether the economic benefits of working as a teacher (outside a small number of International Schools) feature very high on the list!

Edited December 24, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[BenStark]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

However, some people who retired  here adequately funded are now not, due to a combination of rises in the Thai cost of living (which has been considerable in the last 2 decades) and worsening of the exchange rate.  By the time all this hits, they are usually 70+, consider Thailand their home, may have a Thai family. So while it is easy to say they should nto be here/should go home, in practice far from easy for them to do.

 

Which means they didn't think further than today.

 

There is no country in the world where prices don't increase constantly.

 

There is no country in the world where exchange rates are at the same level all the time.

 

That isn't rocket science.

 

 

[anandra]

The Thais have right to work all over the world, lots of Cambodians, Lao and Myanmar citizens work in Thailand, why farangscannot work as teachers or be so-called economic immigrants, the word farang includes not only rich Westerners

Edited December 24, 2023 by anandra

[bob smith]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:47 AM, Celsius said:

"I use an agent because I can't meet financial requirements."

 

"I rely on gofundme and luck from above for medical treatments"

 

"I would rather live poor in Thailand than poor in Europe"

 

"I teach English in Thailand"

These are what I like to call the pathetic farangs. 

 

So broke they can't even afford a round down the local pub.

 

Do us a favor fellas and go home will you, you are letting the side down badly!

 

bob.

Edited December 24, 2023 by bob smith

[Bday Prang]

11 minutes ago, anandra said:

The Thais have right to work all over the world, lots of Cambodians, Lao and Myanmar citizens work in Thailand, why farangscannot work as teachers or be so-called economic immigrants, the word farang includes not only rich Westerners

Thais have no inherent right to work in the UK. they could of course apply and if they met the requirements then they would be  allowed to do so, Theoretically at least.   Indeed many citizens of neighbouring do work here , and despite what you have posted westerners are perfectly entitled to work here as teachers if they wish to provided that they also meet the necessary requirements.     

              The phrase "economic migrants" is not, to my knowledge, often used by the Thai authorities when referring to  western  retirees,  it is only used by other westerners who as I said before, consider themselves better of than others, despite having no idea what those others are actually worth 

[Gecko123]

The cost of housing in the US, as well as in many other parts of the world (Europe, Australia, Canada, etc.), is so distorted that refusing to jump back into that fire is totally understandable, even if you have adequate funds to do so. These housing market distortions are totally unsustainable and waiting out the market and avoiding being sucked dry by corporate landlords is a perfectly intelligent choice and does not necessarily mean you're living in Thailand out of economic desperation. For me, it's a choice between paying an ungodly price to either buy or rent back home or doing whatever else I choose to do with the money. If you say "what about all the intangible benefits" of living back in the US, I would argue that aside from being able to utilize medicare, I can't really think of too many. So, just because cost of living is a factor in your decision making process, that doesn't necessarily make someone an economic refugee. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Gecko123

[Bday Prang]

38 minutes ago, bob smith said:

These are what I like to call the pathetic farangs. 

 

So broke they can't even afford a round down the local pub.

 

Do us a favor fellas and go home will you, you are letting the side down badly!

 

bob.

                I suppose there must be people like that here somewhere, I can't say I have ever met any personally,   hardly surprising I guess if they literally can't afford to leave their house / flat / shack or were ever they live.   Where do they actually  live?  I have never heard of any near me , and i would assume they gravitate to Issan one way or the other as it is presumably the cheapest option.

               Why they would even choose to live here, presumably alone, is beyond me, a life on benefits in the UK would be a far preferable option, there are, after all plenty of workshy scroungers in the UK who seem to have no problem at all standing a round or three in their local watering hole when they are not in the  betting shop or raiding the food banks  

It must be a tiny minority,that actually live like that here, and as they are not able to become a drain on public funds here, they are hardly worth worrying about by anybody

                 They won't be doing us any favours by leaving, but they would be helping themselves

Edited December 24, 2023 by Bday Prang

[bob smith]

5 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

                I suppose there must be people like that here somewhere, I can't say I have ever met any personally,   hardly surprising I guess if they literally can't afford to leave their house / flat / shack or were ever they live.   Where do they actually  live?  I have never heard of any near me , and i would assume they gravitate to Issan one way or the other as it is presumably the cheapest option.

               Why they would even choose to live here, presumably alone, is beyond me, a life on benefits in the UK would be a far preferable option, there are, after all plenty of workshy scroungers in the UK who seem to have no problem at all standing a round or three in their local watering hole when they are not in the  betting shop or raiding the food banks  

It must be a tiny minority,that actually live like that here, and as they are not able to become a drain on public funds here, they are hardly worth worrying about by anybody

                 They won't be doing us any favours by leaving, but they would be helping themselves

I once met a swedish guy that was so broke who tried to sell me his shoes for a bit of extra money.

 

no joke. This was around 2005ish.

 

ive also met a few homeless farangs on the streets of bangkok over the years

 

 

[Bday Prang]

I was going to say that unlike many illegals entering the UK  most expats here don't detest the Thai  culture  or seek to change it into a copy of the miserable country they originate from,  but one only has to spend some time on the Asean now forum to realise that , that isn't strictly true

[georgegeorgia]

14 minutes ago, bob smith said:

I once met a swedish guy that was so broke who tried to sell me his shoes for a bit of extra money.

 

no joke. This was around 2005ish.

 

ive also met a few homeless farangs on the streets of bangkok over the years

 

 

Yes I actually met much worse , I won't tell you what "service" they were willing to provide ,however they are on the Pattaya meeting apps 

 

[Bday Prang]

2 minutes ago, bob smith said:

I once met a swedish guy that was so broke who tried to sell me his shoes for a bit of extra money.

 

no joke. This was around 2005ish.

 

ive also met a few homeless farangs on the streets of bangkok over the years

 

 

Jesus wept, the mind boggles,   what were the shoes like by the way , and how much was he asking? I wouldn't mind a nice set of brogues.

 

Joking aside there are organised gangs of often foreign beggars in the UK many of which have been exposed of "earning" a relatively good living .  

I don't doubt there are a few homeless on the streets, and they are pretty much a lost cause, who would help them return to where they come from, even if they wanted too, and can't imagine the UK embassy being too interested,

God forbid either of us end up like that, but if it did happen, i'd rather be on the streets at 30 deg C   compared to  -5 deg C  or whatever it is at the moment over there, but still far from ideal 

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

 

However, some people who retired  here adequately funded are now not, due to a combination of rises in the Thai cost of living (which has been considerable in the last 2 decades) and worsening of the exchange rate.  By the time all this hits, they are usually 70+, consider Thailand their home, may have a Thai family. So while it is easy to say they should nto be here/should go home, in practice far from easy for them to do.

 

The other considerable group (with some overlap with the above) are those who completely omitted health care from their financial planning, and by the time they figure out that it needs to be factored in, are no longer insurable. Or (due to the above) can't afford insurance.

 

I'm not saying either group planned well  -- I worked to the age of 71 precisely because my planning assumed inflation, need to cushion for currency fluctuations, and rising health care needs/insurance costs as I aged.  Most of those in difficulty now retired too early, basing their decision on current cost of living in Thailand, their current state of health  and not considering the likelihood both would change. But I think that  stops short of "feckless". 

 

The completely feckless folk come here already inadequately funded. They exist but numbers not huge. 

 

The others just did not foresee or plan on the magnitude of changes that might (and did) occur over the long term. In retrospect an error,  but I would nto be too harsh on them. Lost of people, including ones who never leave their home countries, do nto know how to plan adequately for long term retirement.  (It does irritate me, though when people who retired in their 50's tell me I am "luckier" than they are financially. Luck had nothing to do with it, I'd be in their financial shoes had I retired that soon! Ditto people who've been abroad for a long time tell me I am lucky to have good insurance because they can't get a policy due to pre-existing problems ...  If I had left health insurance until now, I would have trouble getting a policy too. I'm well insured because I took out insurance at the start, at a younger age and in good health).

 

 

 

 

Part of the funding problem is that nobody can plan ahead that far ahead. Probably 2 years is about the best estimate. Those people who planned 20 years ago and figured out that their funds were more than adequate then may find that the funds are now just about adequate.

 

Who in 2006 foresaw the financial crash of 2008 in the USA? Who in 2010, foresaw that Brexit would result in a huge drop in the forex rate in 2016.

 

OTOH, who in 1996, foresaw the Tom Yang Gung crash of Thailand's currency in 1997, when the GBP forex rose to nearly 100 thb to the UK GBP?

 

Very very few people including the financial "gurus" and the "experts" at the time.

 

What will the Thai baht forex rate be on 1st April against the USD and GBP? Will it be up or down.

 

Who on this thread KNOWS if they will need serious medical treatment in 2024 that may cost them all their savings or nullify their medical insurance?

 

I doubt if anyone on this thread KNOWS what will happen to them in the next 3, 6, 9 or 12 months.

 

I certainly don't.

[Bday Prang]

2 minutes ago, georgegeorgia said:

Yes I actually met much worse , I won't tell you what "service" they were willing to provide ,however they are on the Pattaya meeting apps 

 

OMG  where is the vomiting emoji when one needs it

[Bday Prang]

Just now, billd766 said:

Part of the funding problem is that nobody can plan ahead that far ahead. Probably 2 years is about the best estimate. Those people who planned 20 years ago and figured out that their funds were more than adequate then may find that the funds are now just about adequate.

 

Who in 2006 foresaw the financial crash of 2008 in the USA? Who in 2010, foresaw that Brexit would result in a huge drop in the forex rate in 2016.

 

OTOH, who in 1996, foresaw the Tom Yang Gung crash of Thailand's currency in 1997, when the GBP forex rose to nearly 100 thb to the UK GBP?

 

Very very few people including the financial "gurus" and the "experts" at the time.

 

What will the Thai baht forex rate be on 1st April against the USD and GBP? Will it be up or down.

 

Who on this thread KNOWS if they will need serious medical treatment in 2024 that may cost them all their savings or nullify their medical insurance?

 

I doubt if anyone on this thread KNOWS what will happen to them in the next 3, 6, 9 or 12 months.

 

I certainly don't.

Me neither,  how much should we set aside in case China invades Taiwan and WW3 breaks out.  If we all saved to cover every eventuality it would make for an entire life of misery, not just the final years. Some things can almost be allowed for to a degree but, many cannot, None of us have a crystal ball

[noobexpat]

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

 

I don't know if he has more money than me.

 

All I mentioned is that I saved 500k in 10 years. He is the one that started by saying I failed in Thailand.

 

But correct, I don't do d1k measuring contest with liars and sexpats who after years of living in Thailand all they can type in every reply is  "555". Kinda loso thing to do.

 

For someone who arrived here with very little, you seem critical of others doing something similar.

£120k gbp at age 39 ??? what a success you are. Did you get a call from dragons den? 555

 

 

1/10/23: 

"I come to Thailand at age 39 with barely 200k CAD in savings"

 

[Moonlover]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:47 AM, Celsius said:

It seems to me that a lot of posters here are not expats, but rather economic migrants.

 

When I read some posts here I am astonished with amazement to read.....

 

"I use an agent because I can't meet financial requirements."

 

"I rely on gofundme and luck from above for medical treatments"

 

"I would rather live poor in Thailand than poor in Europe"

 

"I teach English in Thailand"

 

Thailand is no place for the poors

 

 

It seems that you misunderstand the meaning of the word expatriate. An expatriate is somebody who has left their country of origin in order to reside in another country. 

 

Everything else that you've written is simply a list of reasons for doing so. Economic migrants are expatriates too.

[Bday Prang]

27 minutes ago, billd766 said:

OTOH, who in 1996, foresaw the Tom Yang Gung crash of Thailand's currency in 1997, when the GBP forex rose to nearly 100 thb to the UK GBP?

I didn't foresee it,  but god I enjoyed to the best of my ability whilst it lasted ,  couldn't believe my eyes when i walked past the money changers at the airport, I had twice as much money than I thought I had,   Happy days indeed

[bob smith]

31 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Jesus wept, the mind boggles,   what were the shoes like by the way , and how much was he asking? I wouldn't mind a nice set of brogues.

 

Joking aside there are organised gangs of often foreign beggars in the UK many of which have been exposed of "earning" a relatively good living .  

I don't doubt there are a few homeless on the streets, and they are pretty much a lost cause, who would help them return to where they come from, even if they wanted too, and can't imagine the UK embassy being too interested,

God forbid either of us end up like that, but if it did happen, i'd rather be on the streets at 30 deg C   compared to  -5 deg C  or whatever it is at the moment over there, but still far from ideal 

 

They were a pair of white lacoste trainers. Pretty good condition to say he was shirtless and blind drunk, they were possibly stolen that morning.

 

he wanted 500 baht for the pair. I told him to get stuffed 😂

[Bday Prang]

3 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

It seems that you misunderstand the meaning of the word expatriate. An expatriate is somebody who has left their country of origin in order to reside in another country. 

 

Everything else that you've written is simply a list of reasons for doing so. Economic migrants are expatriates too.

Does anybody actually migrate with the intention of being worse off  ?

[Bday Prang]

1 minute ago, bob smith said:

They were a pair of white lacoste trainers. Pretty good condition to say he was shirtless and blind drunk, they were possibly stolen that morning.

 

he wanted 500 baht for the pair. I told him to get stuffed 😂

Well if he had managed to pull that off a couple of times a day , he would be relatively "well heeled"

Personally I wouldn't consider wearing trainers over here , my feet would rot them from the inside.  Might consider a pair today though  Brrrr  17 deg C  here this morning

[Celsius]

27 minutes ago, noobexpat said:

 

For someone who arrived here with very little, you seem critical of others doing something similar.

£120k gbp at age 39 ??? what a success you are. Did you get a call from dragons den? 555

 

 

1/10/23: 

"I come to Thailand at age 39 with barely 200k CAD in savings"

 

 

Wow. Stalker alert!

[noobexpat]

3 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Wow. Stalker alert!

 

Type CAD in the search bar. The things you find 

[Celsius]

Just now, noobexpat said:

 

Type CAD in the search bar. The things you find 

 

Thanks for confirming stalking tendencies.

 

Now type property in the search bar 

[NoshowJones]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:23 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

 

Many retirees can return to their home countries without any money, and they will be taken care of.

Hopefully we all won't need that option. But it's nice to know it exists.

 

I know a couple of people who had to go "home" broke and now they don't have sun and the sea but at least a warm room and 3 meals a day. 

If it's the UK, then what about the astronomic power bills they have doubled or trebled in very recent times.

[NoshowJones]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:22 AM, novacova said:

These should be weeded out in my opinion.

 

Yeah sure, who in their right mind thinks it’s okay to be a lackey?

 

Boot them out…

I can meet the financial requirements but I do not trust the Thai banks or the government, so I use an agent.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The USA, some people call it the richest nation on earth, was always special.

The super rich get tax cuts, and the poor have to suffer. And this is what the American voters vote for. Amazing! 

Isn't it much the same with the UK voters?

[Sluglord]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:47 AM, Celsius said:

Thailand is no place for the poors

That's funny bc there are probably 50M of them here already and just getting poorer by the day.

 

Being an expatriate has nothing to do with means or shi++y jobs. It just merely means you are no longer domiciled in your birth or home country.

 

I'm always astonished at those that whether teaching in BKK, holing up in Pattaya or CM how utterly removed they are from Thailand itself. Many teachers and Pattaya residents have seen little or nothing of the country.

[NoshowJones]

20 hours ago, sandyf said:

What do you mean "now", been that way for many since 2012.

Those that were not affected by the introduction of the income threshold then were probably on occupational pension and unlikely to be affected by the proposed increase.

 

As the poster implied, Brits returning would be immediately on full pension, free healthcare and any applicable social security.

Maybe not the lifestyle they hoped for but it is an alternative.

Free healthcare Sandy yes, but from some reports, some people are dying because of the time they have to wait to get that healthcare, or even to see a doctor.