New tax era in Thailand begins as Revenue now shares data with 138 countries within the OECD

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

 

What it will do, is make a good portion of expats leave to live elsewhere. Hopefully they make enough off taxes on Thai HI-SO's hiding money abroad, as they won't be ablet to leave so easily.

 

What it will do is make a good portion of expats SAY they're leaving to live elsewhere, whereas in reality they'll still be here, complaining about life's inequalities and how Thailand still sucks.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Don't like your wording. I haven't paid income tax since 1991, but I have never "failed" to do so, I didn't have to. Until retirement my wages weren't taxable, than here I used the defunct seasoning rule, and since November 2022 I am under the LTR Visa regime. If that changes I'll minimise my burden by using pre 2024 savings and the 179 days rule, if I am still fit to do so. Did I do anything wrong? absolutely not, I did my duty as a tax payer: be aware of the rules and used them to your best advantage.

 

2 hours ago, sidgy said:

I think that if you can prove you already had that $100k in your account, before the start of this year, then you can subsequently bring in up to that $100k tax free. After that amount it will be assessable for tax.

well, since the ltr are supposedly under royal exemption, you shouldn't worry for 8  more years.

[Bday Prang]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

 

Incredible eh? That's how many, many "more civilized" countries have been personal income tax assessment and management for decades.

Speaking as a director of a limited company , I have never had any money withheld by a bank in the UK, either in my personal or business accounts. Although whether the UK is "more civilised" than here is questionable 

[NanLaew]

7 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Speaking as a director of a limited company , I have never had any money withheld by a bank in the UK, either in my personal or business accounts. Although whether the UK is "more civilised" than here is questionable 

 

Speaking as either the director, or owner, or sole-trader or employee of several foreign companies over the past 45 years or so, as a professional international tax exile gypsy, I have. And it ALL got refunded.

 

People gotta panic.

Edited January 8 by NanLaew

[Puccini]

6 hours ago, BE88 said:

Now it is clear that all foreign residents in Thailand will have to pay taxes for those who reside beyond 180 days

 

I don't understand what you mean. Some foreigners in Thailand paying taxes for other foreigners in Thailand?

[lordgrinz]

9 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

What it will do is make a good portion of expats SAY they're leaving to live elsewhere, whereas in reality they'll still be here, complaining about life's inequalities and how Thailand still sucks.

 

I will have at least a year or two more to worry about it, I won't be sending anything here this year, we'll see what tax nightmares await other filers before I send money again.

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

If it becomes an immigration issue, It would only potentially affect people who use the income / combo method. It wont affect people that slapped 400k / 800k in a bank account years ago.

And so what? At least they wouldn't have (many) questions as to what or where is the money that I use to live on.

Edited January 8 by jerrymahoney

[hkblademan]

4 hours ago, smedly said:

you can work that out, how are they going too

 

good luck with that

 

if I have to do a border run every 180 days  - i will, ## them, but it won't happen, too complex to administer

That won’t make you non tax resident. If you spend a total of 180 days here in a tax year you’re tax resident. It’s not 180

days consecutively it’s 180 days in total….

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

 

What it will do, is make a good portion of expats leave to live elsewhere. Hopefully they make enough off taxes on Thai HI-SO's hiding money abroad, as they won't be ablet to leave so easily.

countries to which one might move to are fairly short today...even Russia china and india signed.  Probably a few more too, N. korea probably didn't Iran probably didn't...check them out as there won't be that many that would give an ex-pat a tax break in my opinion...after all this is mainly for those rich multinational organizations paying less than their fair share to some and those individuals that don't pay on earned income this was stated

 

[Bday Prang]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

 

Speaking as either the director, or owner, or sole-trader or employee of several foreign companies over the past 45 years or so, as a professional international tax exile gypsy, I have.

In the uk employees, and most  sole traders will  have their tax withheld at source, Directors can elect to pay themselves fee's that are beneath the tax threshold ,and, if they are also the owner can pay themselves in dividends from which tax is not withheld but must be paid retrospectively.

Maybe you are not from the UK or if you are maybe you had a bad accountant.  I have no knowledge of what "benefits"  being a professional tax exile brings, and bearing in mind what you have written, i don't think I'll bother looking into it   

[BE88]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Logic would tell me the same, but Ihave been told on numerous occassions, by people from different Countries, that if you do not have assessable income there is no need to file a Thai tax return.

 

Logic would also tell me that the above is also true. Why would you file a Thai tax return if you have no assessable income

 

 

If it becomes an immigration issue, It would only potentially affect people who use the income / combo method. It wont affect people that slapped 400k / 800k in a bank account years ago.

 

When you show up for your visa renewal they will ask you for proof of your visa declaration if you have lived in Thailand for more 180 days.

So I assume everyone will have to have filed their taxes next year if you want to stay in Thailand, excluded LRT

 

Edited January 8 by BE88

[Bday Prang]

8 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I will have at least a year or two more to worry about it, I won't be sending anything here this year, we'll see what tax nightmares await other filers before I send money again.

That's the way forward for sure,  I will be doing the same

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

countries to which one might move to are fairly short today...even Russia china and india signed.  Probably a few more too, N. korea probably didn't Iran probably didn't...check them out as there won't be that many that would give an ex-pat a tax break in my opinion...after all this is mainly for those rich multinational organizations paying less than their fair share to some and those individuals that don't pay on earned income this was stated

 

 

Yes, but why deal with taxes in two different countries? Just move back home and deal with taxes in your home country, less hassle. Plus, I know my wife does her taxes before I do mine in the US, how exactly are we going to time this tax obligation in two countries?

[NanLaew]

2 minutes ago, hkblademan said:

4 hours ago, smedly said:

you can work that out, how are they going too

 

good luck with that

 

if I have to do a border run every 180 days  - i will, ## them, but it won't happen, too complex to administer

That won’t make you non tax resident. If you spend a total of 180 days here in a tax year you’re tax resident. It’s not 180

days consecutively it’s 180 days in total….

Correct. Best option is 4 months on, 4 months off over three countries.

 

Let's see now... Thailand in Nov-Feb, Cuba in Mar-June and UK July-October.

[worgeordie]

When I first came to live here ,you had to have a tax assessment ,before they would give you

permission to leave the country , it was a farce ,the lady making the assessment was more

interested in getting me to bring some knickers,bras and perfume for her ,tax charged 200-

500 Baht  if i remember correctly , I cannot remember which Government cancelled it, but they are

doing it again and I expect they will be more through this time around...wonder if they will 

connected to getting permission to leave the country....

 

regards worgeordie

[BE88]

16 minutes ago, Puccini said:

 

I don't understand what you mean. Some foreigners in Thailand paying taxes for other foreigners in Thailand?

What are you talking about ?

Please use a translator 

[Bday Prang]

2 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

When you show up for your visa renewal they will ask you for proof of your visa declaration if you have lived in Thailand for more 180 days.

So I assume everyone will have to have filed their taxes next year if you want to stay in Thailand.

 

And what if you have not , immediate deportation ?  or will people be detained until they comply?

And for a tourist who comes several times a year and inadvertently stays more than 180 days  will they also be subject to detention until they comply?

I would say that's unlikely and unworkable for those who have all but spent up before departure, and like most tourists will not have thought to pack the mountains of documentation required in their suitcases

[brewsterbudgen]

12 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

When you show up for your visa renewal they will ask you for proof of your visa declaration if you have lived in Thailand for more 180 days.

So I assume everyone will have to have filed their taxes next year if you want to stay in Thailand.

 

 No they won't.   

 

 

[bradiston]

5 hours ago, topt said:

 

As has been mentioned many times State and personal pensions are excluded from the UK/Thai DTA so potentially taxable.....

Mentioned where?

[BE88]

5 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

And what if you have not , immediate deportation ?  or will people be detained until they comply?

And for a tourist who comes several times a year and inadvertently stays more than 180 days  will they also be subject to detention until they comply?

I would say that's unlikely and unworkable for those who have all but spent up before departure, and like most tourists will not have thought to pack the mountains of documentation required in their suitcases

 

As in your country, being ignorant of the law does not exclude you from your duties and penalize you, so what Thai immigration will do remains to be discovered.

 

[Bday Prang]

12 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Correct. Best option is 4 months on, 4 months off over three countries.

 

Let's see now... Thailand in Nov-Feb, Cuba in Mar-June and UK July-October.

First two options sound good to me, but personally  I would give the UK a miss

[Bday Prang]

5 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Mentioned where?

on here by "experts"  presumably

[bradiston]

17 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

In the uk employees, and most  sole traders will  have their tax withheld at source, Directors can elect to pay themselves fee's that are beneath the tax threshold ,and, if they are also the owner can pay themselves in dividends from which tax is not withheld but must be paid retrospectively.

Maybe you are not from the UK or if you are maybe you had a bad accountant.  I have no knowledge of what "benefits"  being a professional tax exile brings, and bearing in mind what you have written, i don't think I'll bother looking into it   

I was once a sole trader. I did my own year end accounts. Tax deducted at source? At source of what?

[KannikaP]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The UK Personal Allowance is roughly GBP 12,570 per year.

Ooops, I was 130 quid out!

[ballpoint]

2 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Yes, but how do you prove money sent here from a large savings account that would have mixed in profit from equities/interest/etc. was taxed? Say I have $100,000 in a saving account, and move money from profit of $5000 into the account, then I remit $20,000 to Thailand.......how do you handle tax on mixed money in a savings account?

 

(A quick suggestion to fans of the short story. Feel free to move to the next post).

 

To date, the rule has been that anything earned prior to the current year may be remitted tax free.  This meant that, if you were able to show an overseas account with $X on January 1st, you were able to remit $X - as long as no money went into that account prior to the remittance taking place.  No tax. No problem.  However, questions still existed over what happened if money was deposited into that overseas account during the current year - how did they work out what portion of your remittance came from the part already in there, and how much from the new deposit(s)?
As I have posted on other threads, I was audited by the Thai Revenue Department after retiring here around five years ago, and had their interpretation explained to me, which is probably easier to put forward by example:

1. I have $100,000 in an overseas account on Jan 1st. I remit $50,000 to Thailand in March.  No tax.
2. I have $100,000 in an overseas account on Jan 1st. I remit $50,000 to Thailand in March, then deposit $50,000 into that overseas account in April.  No tax.
3. I have $100,000 in an overseas account on Jan 1st. I remit $50,000 to Thailand in March, then deposit $50,000 into that overseas account in April, then remit another $50,000 in May.  Unless I could show that the April deposit was from a source already taxed by a country having a tax treaty with Thailand, I am taxed on the full second remittance.
4. I have $100,000 in an overseas account on Jan 1st. I deposit $30,000 into that account in February and I remit $50,000 to Thailand in March.  Unless I could show that the February deposit was from a source already taxed by a country having a tax treaty with Thailand, I am taxed on $30,000 of my remittance.

5. I have $100,000 in an overseas account on Jan 1st. I deposit $100,000 into that account in February and I remit $50,000 to Thailand in March.  Unless I could show that the February deposit was from a source already taxed by a country having a tax treaty with Thailand, I am taxed on the full $50,000 of my remittance - but not on the remainder of the deposit that wasn't remitted (unlike many countries, including my own).

 

Basically, the way they saw it was for every remittance there must be a corresponding drop in your bank balance between the remittance date and Jan 1st.  In case 3, for example, even though I had more than enough funds on Jan 1st to cover my remittance, the fact is that my balance after the remittance is still $80,000 when it would have been $50,000 had the deposit not occurred. Therefore, the difference is classed as income from the current year, and I am taxed on it.   Because the new directive started on Jan 1st 2024, this year will be treated exactly the same as in these examples. 

 

I passed my audit, and every year I now get yearly statements from my Thai bank accounts, and from the overseas account I use to remit money into Thailand.  I use a highlighter pen to mark every deposit into my Thai accounts and every Thailand remittance made from my overseas account, linking each with a number.  I do not transfer money into that overseas account until November or December each year, and they are not interested in anything that happens to that account after my final remittance for that year.   I take these to my local revenue office - a little two woman (neither of who speak English) Amphur one and show the linked statements.  Every year they tell me no need to file a return.  I look forward (not) to next year's visit, given the new directive.  (Again, this year will be business as usual).

Now, when it comes to the new law / directive, like everyone else's comments on this, and the numerous other threads on this topic, this is my informed opinion only.
I see them continuing with the same approach, however, instead of the cut-off date for funds in your overseas account(s) being Jan 1st of the current year, it will now be Jan 1st 2024 (I realise that is currently the current year, but the point is that date will always remain the same, no matter what year we are in going forward).  The only way to be able to continue as I have been doing is to keep a dedicated account, with no money going into it after Jan 1st 2024, yet still having enough funds to allow you to remit money for as many years as required (a hard ask). For example, if you have $1,000,000 in that account and remit $50,000 every year - without making a single deposit into that account, you could carry on for 20 years.  As soon as you make a deposit into that account though, you will need to show that the money has already been taxed by a tax treaty country, or you will be taxed on it here.  (During my audit they were even looking at interest payments on my overseas bank account, which I was able to show already had taxes withheld on them, so were exempt).  Personally, I will not be following the same line as I have done previously with remitting money according to date, as that will all change, and I imagine my visits to my local Revenue Department office will take a little more time - though I have kept enough money for next year in a "sterile" account in Singapore, so when I remit it in 2025 I'll be able to show it was there on Jan 1st this year, just to let the dust settle on this new directive before entering the fray in 2026.  After that I'd be losing far more through loss of investment income than I would be paying in tax.

 

Therefore, to answer your question, I'd imagine you'd be taxed on $5,000 of your remittance (effectively nothing at all), if it was made after Jan 1st this year, and prior to the remittance being made.  Unless you could show it came from a taxed source. 

 

As I also noted in my previous posts on this, the only way I found out that they wanted to audit me was when my local immigration office informed me that my passport had been flagged by the Revenue Department, and I would be unable to leave the country until the flag was removed.  No correspondence was sent to me at my previous employer's address, my current and previous home addresses, or by email.  My provincial and district Revenue Department offices knew nothing about this.  I visited the Bangkok Area Three (which covered my previous place of work) Revenue office at Chidlom, and they knew nothing about it, and then discovered there's another Area Three Revenue office near the National Stadium, and finally was able to get the audit done.  However, once done, my passport still remained flagged.  My local immigration could do nothing about this and suggested I visit the old Bangkok office at Suan Phlu - now the immigration detention centre, but also where the "black" lists are kept. After walking around that ghost of a building, I was directed to an office off to one side and got the flag removed.  Therefore, to those who state that the Revenue Department have nothing to do with the Immigration Bureau, I laugh at you.  They can, and will, stop you leaving the country, or even extending your permission to stay, should they so desire.  And I too can remember the days of requiring a tax clearance certificate in order to leave the country when I made work visits in the 80's, prior to moving here full time.  I still have an old passport with the requirement attached to every visa stamp: 

 

 

Again, make of this what you will.  My opinion about how the new directive will handle remittances is just that, an opinion, but I have been through the system - with the Revenue Department, the Immigration Bureau and PwC -the multinational accountancy company who used to file my taxes when I was employed here, and, as the Christopher Hitchens quote I used to have as my signature said, before they were all removed, my opinion is good enough for me.

[Bday Prang]

3 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

As in your country, being ignorant of the law does not exclude you from your duties and penalize you, so what Thai immigration will do remains to be discovered.

 

Exactly, it remains to be discovered , yet it didn't  stop you from stating....." When you show up for your visa renewal they will ask you for proof of your visa declaration if you have lived in Thailand for more 180 days." 

with the usual air of authority expressed by many on here who know no more than the rest of us

[roo860]

3 hours ago, roo860 said:

If you opened another different Thai bank account and transferred different amounts, as in one to be below a certain tax threshold etc, how would the tax office know you had 2 accounts, do banks have to disclose this information?

I have a daughter here, nothing to stop me transferring monies from my own country to her then she gives me cash, no-one is any the wiser? 

[jerrymahoney]

5 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

(A quick suggestion to fans of the short story. Feel free to move to the next post).

Thank you . I will. I know  that this is important info for some or many but not for me.

[BE88]

11 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Exactly, it remains to be discovered , yet it didn't  stop you from stating....." When you show up for your visa renewal they will ask you for proof of your visa declaration if you have lived in Thailand for more 180 days." 

with the usual air of authority expressed by many on here who know no more than the rest of us

 

It's not me who says it but it's written in the PO Thai Examiner.com so using logic I assume that it will be an extra request to get your Visa renewal like your bank deposit, but if you think it's exempt you're free to think so.

 

[The Cyclist]

42 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

And so what? At least they wouldn't have (many) questions as to what or where is the money that I use to live on.

 

No so what intended.

 

I did make that exact point to another poster on the other thread. Jim Gant possibly.

 

Here is my 800k for extension - That is great, now what are you living on.

 

Income method covere both the 65k monthly required and provides money for living on.

 

But we are getting into the realms of the RD and Immigration being synchronized when they are currently 2 seperate entities.