Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Morch]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

Israel has the mightiest military by far and is the occupying force. Hamas has the hostages and the threat of more terrorist attacks.

All the rest of this post is IMO...

The first agreement that must be reached is a ceasefire and return of the hostages.

The second is an arrangement of how the Israelis and Palestinians can continue living in the land that used to be called Palestine. There are three options, and I'll list them in the order of my preference:

1. Jews and Palestinians can live together as equals in a one-state solution.
2. Jews and Palestinians can divide the land up and live in separate places in a two-state solution.
3. Jews and Palestinians can continue fighting until there is only one left in a one-state solution.

 

 

Your opening comment got nothing to do with anything.

 

The rest of your post does not address what I wrote. You still expect someone else to manage things for the Palestinians, rather than them making an effort.

 

Your 'opinions' about agreements are worthless and are at a disconnect from facts, reality, sides' positions, politics and so on.

 

Just another nothing post.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

How arrogant.

 

@Neeranam

 

Factual.

 

[WDSmart]

It looks like talks on the hostage front are taking place. No word on any talks about a ceasefire, although that might be part of the discussions regarding the release of the hostages. 

One thing I noticed in this article was that these talks were being conducted and brokered by the US, Egypt, and Qatar. I'd rather see Hamas and Israel more actively involved in the negotiations, but I guess that's just not possible yet.

Hostage-deal gaps remain, Israeli prime minister's office says | Reuters

[Bkk Brian]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It looks like talks on the hostage front are taking place. No word on any talks about a ceasefire, although that might be part of the discussions regarding the release of the hostages. 

One thing I noticed in this article was that these talks were being conducted and brokered by the US, Egypt, and Qatar. I'd rather see Hamas and Israel more actively involved in the negotiations, but I guess that's just not possible yet.

Hostage-deal gaps remain, Israeli prime minister's office says | Reuters

One thing I noticed in this article was that these talks were being conducted and brokered by the US, Egypt, and Qatar

 

Of course Israel is attending in the talks. Not that there should be any talks about this, Hamas was ordered by ICJ to release the hostages with no preconditions immediately. Why would anyone want them there when they lie through their teeth.

 

These talks have been ongoing for days now, constructive but still significant gaps.

[WDSmart]

22 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

One thing I noticed in this article was that these talks were being conducted and brokered by the US, Egypt, and Qatar

 

Of course Israel is attending in the talks. Not that there should be any talks about this, Hamas was ordered by ICJ to release the hostages with no preconditions immediately. Why would anyone want them there when they lie through their teeth.

 

These talks have been ongoing for days now, constructive but still significant gaps.

 My remarks above expressed my concern that BOTH Israel and Hamas representatives were not there. A deal struck with only one side being present during the negotiations is not as good as one struck directly between both parties, IMO. I know Hamas is being represented by Qatar and is one of their key financial backers, just as the US is one of Israel's, but I still would like to see direct talks.

Of course, if everyone agrees with you that Hamas "lies through their teeth," then I'm not sure what good any agreement would do.

Bombs away! 

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

 My remarks above expressed my concern that BOTH Israel and Hamas representatives were not there. A deal struck with only one side being present during the negotiations is not as good as one struck directly between both parties, IMO. I know Hamas is being represented by Qatar and is one of their key financial backers, just as the US is one of Israel's, but I still would like to see direct talks.

Of course, if everyone agrees with you that Hamas "lies through their teeth," then I'm not sure what good any agreement would do.

Bombs away! 

 

 

You really think that terrorists that want to murder all Jews should be in the same room as a Israeli delegation? You think that Israel wants to be in the same room with terrorists responsible for Oct 7th? Really?

 

Why do you think Qatar is there, they are friends, have influence to a small degree, they know what's what and talk directly with Hamas as well as providing them with continued millions of dollars every month.

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

 My remarks above expressed my concern that BOTH Israel and Hamas representatives were not there. A deal struck with only one side being present during the negotiations is not as good as one struck directly between both parties, IMO. I know Hamas is being represented by Qatar and is one of their key financial backers, just as the US is one of Israel's, but I still would like to see direct talks.

Of course, if everyone agrees with you that Hamas "lies through their teeth," then I'm not sure what good any agreement would do.

Bombs away! 

 

Well, did Hamas not say that they would abide the ICJ? Yes Hamas was ordered by ICJ to release the hostages with no preconditions immediately, and they have not. So yes, they are liars. 

[WDSmart]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

You really think that terrorists that want to murder all Jews should be in the same room as a Israeli delegation? You think that Israel wants to be in the same room with terrorists responsible for Oct 7th? Really?

 

Why do you think Qatar is there, they are friends, have influence to a small degree, they know what's what and talk directly with Hamas as well as providing them with continued millions of dollars every month.

If the Israelis and Hamas are NEVER going to be able to sit down in a room to talk, how do you ever expect them to reach an agreement about how they can live together in the same land? Of course, I know the answer to that question; you don't. I understand that, but as of now, I am still not willing to resign myself to that. That would, IMO and as I have posted above, mean it will be only one side or the other that will survive this war. The losing side will be effectively annihilated. And that would not go over well with the allies of either side. 

[WDSmart]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, did Hamas not say that they would abide the ICJ? Yes Hamas was ordered by ICJ to release the hostages with no preconditions immediately, and they have not. So yes, they are liars. 

And Israel was told to try and limit the civilian casualties and suffering of  Palestinian civilians while the IDF continued to pursue Hamas. Whether or not they will do that, we'll just have to wait and see. 

[WDSmart]

All I can say is if Israel goes into these negotiations with anything like the attitude of @BrianBkk and @Yellowtail when responding to my very neutral post about the ongoing negotiations, I'd say goodbye to all the hostages right now. 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

All I can say is if Israel goes into these negotiations with anything like the attitude of @BrianBkk and @Yellowtail when responding to my very neutral post about the ongoing negotiations, I'd say goodbye to all the hostages right now. 

Hamas has spoken. ☠️

[Yellowtail]

20 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

And Israel was told to try and limit the civilian casualties and suffering of  Palestinian civilians while the IDF continued to pursue Hamas. Whether or not they will do that, we'll just have to wait and see. 

So how long do you think Hamas should wait to release the hostages? 

[WDSmart]

28 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So how long do you think Hamas should wait to release the hostages? 

So, all this below is just IMO. I have no "links" or "facts" to back any of this up.

I think now, after what the IDF has done and continues to do in Gaza, that Hamas should try to negotiate a ceasefire in conjunction with the release of hostages. Right now, the hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has. The problem with that, of course, is even if a ceasefire were to happen, after the release of the hostages, the IDF could just resume its bombardments. Israel's only deterrence then would be a fear that they would lose some of the support of their allies and other Middle Eastern countries could become actively involved.

It's a real mess, and I don't know how even this initial part of it will be solved, much less a long-term arrangement. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

 My remarks above expressed my concern that BOTH Israel and Hamas representatives were not there. A deal struck with only one side being present during the negotiations is not as good as one struck directly between both parties, IMO. I know Hamas is being represented by Qatar and is one of their key financial backers, just as the US is one of Israel's, but I still would like to see direct talks.

Of course, if everyone agrees with you that Hamas "lies through their teeth," then I'm not sure what good any agreement would do.

Bombs away! 

 

 

It's interesting that you claim to follow these things, and yet seem surprised by pretty routine things involved.

 

Hamas broke the terms of the last hostage/prisoner exchange.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, did Hamas not say that they would abide the ICJ? Yes Hamas was ordered by ICJ to release the hostages with no preconditions immediately, and they have not. So yes, they are liars. 

 

Unless very much mistaken, the statement was made by one of Hamas's representatives in Lebanon. I don't think it was echoed by the Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip. Hamas often does stuff like that - someone will make a statement that seems 'reasonable', 'moderate' or otherwise not in line with the usual tone and police, then either walk it back or leadership/spokespersons would deny it was 'official'. There was even one of these about possibly recognizing Israel earlier in this war (scrapped after less than 24 hours, naturally). This usually happens in junctions were some international forum is convened or some vote is about to be taken. PR stuff.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

I don't know why you have to argue with everything I say and add such derogatory remarks in your posts. Grow up!

If the Israelis and Hamas are NEVER going to be able to sit down in a room to talk, how do you ever expect them to reach an agreement about how they can live together in the same land? Of course, I know the answer to that question; you don't. I understand that, but as of now, I am still not willing to resign myself to that. That would, IMO and as I have posted above, mean it will be only one side or the other that will survive this war. The losing side will be effectively annihilated. And that would not go over well with the allies of either side. 

 

Hamas does not imply all Palestinians. Israel's current war is not against all Palestinians. It is against Hamas. Hamas's ideology does not provide for the option of peace or peaceful coexistence with Israel.

 

As for your 'live together in the same land' bit - no one seriously expects that. Sides can't agree on a two-state solution, what's the point of bringing up a harder to do one-state solution?

 

Israel can possibly sign a peace agreement with the PA, as the Palestinian representative, but doubtful that this could be done vs. Hamas.

 

Your 'analysis' above is wrong, and stems from not being informed about who's who, what's what and so on.

 

Other than in your posts, no - annihilation is very unlikely.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

All I can say is if Israel goes into these negotiations with anything like the attitude of @BrianBkk and @Yellowtail when responding to my very neutral post about the ongoing negotiations, I'd say goodbye to all the hostages right now. 

 

Well, at least there would be negotiations. If either side was to introduce your nonsense 'definitions', labels and weird 'take' of things, they would not even get to the negotiation table.

[Yellowtail]

48 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

So, all this below is just IMO. I have no "links" or "facts" to back any of this up.

I think now, after what the IDF has done and continues to do in Gaza, that Hamas should try to negotiate a ceasefire in conjunction with the release of hostages. Right now, the hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has. The problem with that, of course, is even if a ceasefire were to happen, after the release of the hostages, the IDF could just resume its bombardments. Israel's only deterrence then would be a fear that they would lose some of the support of their allies and other Middle Eastern countries could become actively involved.

It's a real mess, and I don't know how even this initial part of it will be solved, much less a long-term arrangement. 

 

So, you think that Hamas should ignore indefinitely the ICJ's order to release the hostages, while at the same time you think Israel should abide the ICJ's ruling immediately. 

 

Is that correct? 

 

 

[WDSmart]

17 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So, you think that Hamas should ignore indefinitely the ICJ's order to release the hostages, while at the same time you think Israel should abide the ICJ's ruling immediately. 

 

Is that correct? 

 

 

I would LIKE to see both sides abide by the ICJ's ruling unconditionally, if by that you mean a ceasefire and release of the hostages. But I don't think they will, and I definitely don't think either side believes the other would. So I will repeat now what I think should happen. (The following is a repeat of what I posted above.)

I think now, after what the IDF has done and continues to do in Gaza, that Hamas should try to negotiate a ceasefire in conjunction with the release of hostages. Right now, the hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has. The problem with that, of course, is even if a ceasefire were to happen, after the release of the hostages, the IDF could just resume its bombardments. Israel's only deterrence then would be a fear that they would lose some of the support of their allies and other Middle Eastern countries could become actively involved.

It's a real mess, and I don't know how even this initial part of it will be solved, much less a long-term arrangement. 

 

[Bkk Brian]

17 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I would LIKE to see both sides abide by the ICJ's ruling unconditionally, if by that you mean a ceasefire and release of the hostages. But I don't think they will, and I definitely don't think either side believes the other would. So I will repeat now what I think should happen. (The following is a repeat of what I posted above.)

I think now, after what the IDF has done and continues to do in Gaza, that Hamas should try to negotiate a ceasefire in conjunction with the release of hostages. Right now, the hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has. The problem with that, of course, is even if a ceasefire were to happen, after the release of the hostages, the IDF could just resume its bombardments. Israel's only deterrence then would be a fear that they would lose some of the support of their allies and other Middle Eastern countries could become actively involved.

It's a real mess, and I don't know how even this initial part of it will be solved, much less a long-term arrangement. 

 

ICJ did not ask for a ceasefire, you really need to go back to the first few pages of this topic to read the Provisional Measures.

 

ICJ did ask for immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.

[Yellowtail]

27 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I would LIKE to see both sides abide by the ICJ's ruling unconditionally, if by that you mean a ceasefire and release of the hostages. But I don't think they will, and I definitely don't think either side believes the other would. So I will repeat now what I think should happen. (The following is a repeat of what I posted above.)

I think now, after what the IDF has done and continues to do in Gaza, that Hamas should try to negotiate a ceasefire in conjunction with the release of hostages. Right now, the hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has. The problem with that, of course, is even if a ceasefire were to happen, after the release of the hostages, the IDF could just resume its bombardments. Israel's only deterrence then would be a fear that they would lose some of the support of their allies and other Middle Eastern countries could become actively involved.

It's a real mess, and I don't know how even this initial part of it will be solved, much less a long-term arrangement. 

 

Yes, I think we all want everyone on both sides to live happily ever after. 

[ozimoron]

The war crimes continue.

 

Israeli soldiers disguised themselves as doctors, nurses, and civilians raided early Tuesday a hospital in Jenin City, northern of the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinians, including two brothers, with gun silencers.

Ten personnel of Israeli special forces dressed in doctor and nurse uniforms, as well as ordinary civilians brandishing automatic guns, raided the Ibn Sina Hospital and used silencers to kill three youths, the official Palestinian news agency Wafa reported, citing sources in the hospital.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-dressed-as-doctors-nurses-kill-3-palestinians-with-silenced-guns-in-hospital-raid/3122615

 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The war crimes continue.

 

Israeli soldiers disguised themselves as doctors, nurses, and civilians raided early Tuesday a hospital in Jenin City, northern of the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinians, including two brothers, with gun silencers.

Ten personnel of Israeli special forces dressed in doctor and nurse uniforms, as well as ordinary civilians brandishing automatic guns, raided the Ibn Sina Hospital and used silencers to kill three youths, the official Palestinian news agency Wafa reported, citing sources in the hospital.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-dressed-as-doctors-nurses-kill-3-palestinians-with-silenced-guns-in-hospital-raid/3122615

 

They were terrorists, can you tell me what war crimes were committed? Has an ICC investigation already been carried out and arrest warrants issued?

 

IDF says it killed 3 terrorists planning Oct. 7-like attack hiding in Jenin hospital

 

The 3 terrorists:

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1706591010-3-terrorists-eliminated-by-israeli-special-forces-inside-a-hospital-in-jenin-report

 

 

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The war crimes continue.

 

Israeli soldiers disguised themselves as doctors, nurses, and civilians raided early Tuesday a hospital in Jenin City, northern of the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinians, including two brothers, with gun silencers.

Ten personnel of Israeli special forces dressed in doctor and nurse uniforms, as well as ordinary civilians brandishing automatic guns, raided the Ibn Sina Hospital and used silencers to kill three youths, the official Palestinian news agency Wafa reported, citing sources in the hospital.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-dressed-as-doctors-nurses-kill-3-palestinians-with-silenced-guns-in-hospital-raid/3122615

 

 

@ozimoron

 

Other than yourself saying so, how is this a 'war crime'? You're not a legal expert. You're not in any position of authority. You're just a poster who says stuff he believes, and paints it as fact, in order to push an agenda.

 

That's all.

[ozimoron]

36 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

They were terrorists, can you tell me what war crimes were committed? Has an ICC investigation already been carried out and arrest warrants issued?

 

Perfidy. NO investigation needed , the facts speak for themselves and the report details the crime. Including photographic evidence.

Edited January 30 by ozimoron

[WDSmart]

20 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

ICJ did not ask for a ceasefire, you really need to go back to the first few pages of this topic to read the Provisional Measures.

 

ICJ did ask for immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.

It is my understanding that the ICJ did ask the IDF to try to make sure its strikes against Hamas did not kill, injure, or create unlivable conditions for Gaza's civilian population. I hope they will start doing that.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Perfidy. NO investigation needed , the facts speak for themselves and the report details the crime.

 

@ozimoron

 

In your mind, perhaps.

Reality works differently.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

Perfidy. NO investigation needed , the facts speak for themselves and the report details the crime.

Yes for a poster that also believes Hamas that they would release the hostages as directed by ICJ then correct no facts needed in your posts, pure fantasy.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It is my understanding that the ICJ did ask the IDF to try to make sure its strikes against Hamas did not kill, injure, or create unlivable conditions for Gaza's civilian population. I hope they will start doing that.

You have still not got back to me on my last post from yesterday:

 

20 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

ICJ did not ask for a ceasefire, you really need to go back to the first few pages of this topic to read the Provisional Measures.

 

ICJ did ask for immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.

 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It is my understanding that the ICJ did ask the IDF to try to make sure its strikes against Hamas did not kill, injure, or create unlivable conditions for Gaza's civilian population. I hope they will start doing that.

 

No, your understanding is lacking.

 

There is nothing said about zero casualties, damage etc. These things are allowed under international laws. The same laws prescribe measures, actions and so on that ought to be taken to minimize such - but do not require what you allege. This was discussed on here numerous times by now.