As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

[Wobblybob]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

You seem to believe that unless Hamas officially abandoned it's claim to governance, then it is still the government of Gaza. As far as the determination of an occupying power is concerned, this is false. Which you would know if you had read the link I posted. Determining who who is in charge of a war zone is ultimately based on reality. Who is effectively in charge. 

Gibberish nonsense, please provide a link or some people might think you are lying. 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

You seem to believe that unless Hamas officially abandoned it's claim to governance, then it is still the government of Gaza. As far as the determination of an occupying power is concerned, this is false. Which you would know if you had read the link I posted. Determining who who is in charge of a war zone is ultimately based on reality. Who is effectively in charge. 

 

Unparalleled nonsense, even by your own high standards. Saying that Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza, as you did, is completely untrue, and you are deliberately and wilfully trying to spread fake news.

 

Hamas are still holding the hostages, Hamas are the only organisation in Gaza negotiating with Qatar and Egypt to try and broker a ceasefire. Hamas are in complete control of the distribution of all UN food parcels entering Gaza, Hamas are in control of the distribution of all fuel entering Gaza, and they are in charge of all water distribution. Hamas are in charge of all UN medical supplies entering Gaza, and they are in charge of all press releases from the Gaza Ministry of Health. To say that Hamas are no longer in power, is completely false, and you are making a fool of yourself.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Hamas are currently in talks in Egypt so I presume at least one of these officials is from there or maybe Qatar as hinted in the article.

 

Arab officials place pressure on Hamas to continue ceasefire negotiations - report

Reports from Arab sources reveal that senior officials from a country closely aligned with Hamas have urged the militant organization to cease fire, questioning the efficacy of its military actions. 

"You have achieved nothing, what kind of victory are you talking about?" the officials purportedly conveyed to Hamas leadership, emphasizing the need to pursue a ceasefire.

Hamas responded, acknowledging the dire circumstances on the ground, citing a shortage of ammunition and disruptions to military operations. Additionally, amidst rumors of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar being unreachable, it was reported that he is suffering from pneumonia complications, adding to the leadership concerns within the organization.

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1708458881-arab-officials-place-pressure-on-hamas-to-begin-ceasefire-negotiations-report

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Press gaggle briefing at the Whitehouse today, John Kirby talks about the need for an effective plan for the civilians but also:

 

"Now, we understand that there are Hamas leadership — in fact, full Hamas units — that are now operating in Rafah, mixing among the civilians, trying to find refuge there.  That’s classic Hamas conduct, and that’s inexcusable.  And Israel has a right to go after them, of course, but they also have an obligation, as I said earlier, to minimize any harm to civilians.  And that’s what we want to see."

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2024/02/20/on-the-record-press-gaggle-by-white-house-national-security-communications-advisor-john-kirby/

 

 

Also to note not leaving Hamas in "control"

 

"So we’re comfortable with the approach that we’re taking.  We all want to see this conflict end, but it’s got to end in a way that keeps the Israeli people safe from any future attacks by Hamas, that doesn’t leave Hamas in control,"

[placeholder]

5 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Gibberish nonsense, please provide a link or some people might think you are lying. 

I already provided  a link to an extensive article that discusses the issue of what are the criteria that need to be met to be considered an occupying power. You might try reading it or people will suspect that you suffer from dyslexia.

[placeholder]

5 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

Unparalleled nonsense, even by your own high standards. Saying that Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza, as you did, is completely untrue, and you are deliberately and wilfully trying to spread fake news.

 

Hamas are still holding the hostages, Hamas are the only organisation in Gaza negotiating with Qatar and Egypt to try and broker a ceasefire. Hamas are in complete control of the distribution of all UN food parcels entering Gaza, Hamas are in control of the distribution of all fuel entering Gaza, and they are in charge of all water distribution. Hamas are in charge of all UN medical supplies entering Gaza, and they are in charge of all press releases from the Gaza Ministry of Health. To say that Hamas are no longer in power, is completely false, and you are making a fool of yourself.

 

This is nonsense. No, Hamas is not in charge of all UN food parcels entering Gaza or distribution of fuel, water, medical supplies etc. You think Israel is just going to watch as members of Hamas performs these functions? You clearly don't have a clue about what war is like. Now, in a few places, they are trying to make a comeback but nothing to do with the distribution to the populace of supplies. Who is making a fool of one's self?

 

"Meanwhile, Hamas has begun to resurface in areas where Israel withdrew the bulk of its forces a month ago, deploying police officers and making salary payments to some of its civil servants in Gaza City in recent days, four residents and a senior official in the militant group said Saturday.

Israel says it is determined to crush Hamas and prevent it from returning to power in the enclave it has governed since 2007."

https://www.voanews.com/a/fears-of-israeli-push-to-rafah-last-haven-for-gaza-refugees/7469797.html

 

How could Israel be determined to keep Hamas from returning to power if it still is in power?

 

 

[Wobblybob]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I already provided  a link to an extensive article that discusses the issue of what are the criteria that need to be met to be considered an occupying power. You might try reading it or people will suspect that you suffer from dyslexia.

Nobody has seen this mythical link, is it a figment of your imagination and has it anything to do with what you are saying, go on prove us all wrong....I double dog dare you. 

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

This is nonsense. No, Hamas is not in charge of all UN food parcels entering Gaza or distribution of fuel, water, medical supplies etc. You think Israel is just going to watch as members of Hamas performs these functions? You clearly don't have a clue about what war is like. Now, in a few places, they are trying to make a comeback but nothing to do with the distribution to the populace of supplies. Who is making a fool of one's self?

 

"Meanwhile, Hamas has begun to resurface in areas where Israel withdrew the bulk of its forces a month ago, deploying police officers and making salary payments to some of its civil servants in Gaza City in recent days, four residents and a senior official in the militant group said Saturday.

Israel says it is determined to crush Hamas and prevent it from returning to power in the enclave it has governed since 2007."

https://www.voanews.com/a/fears-of-israeli-push-to-rafah-last-haven-for-gaza-refugees/7469797.html

 

How could Israel be determined to keep Hamas from returning to power if it still is in power?

 

 

Bit more than "deploying police officers and making salary payments"

 

IDF soldier killed as heavy fighting flares up again in northern Gaza

The Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday that one soldier was killed and two others were seriously wounded as heavy fighting flared again in northern Gaza, where the military had previously said it had largely completed its main operations to destroy Hamas forces.

The soldier was named as Staff Sgt. Avraham Wovagen, 21, of the Nahal Brigade’s 932nd Battalion, from Netanya. His death brought the toll of slain troops in the ground offensive against Hamas to 237.

Separately, a soldier of the 932nd Battalion and a reservist of the 636th Combat Intelligence Collection Unit were seriously wounded by an anti-tank missile in northern Gaza.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldier-killed-as-heavy-fighting-flares-up-again-in-northern-gaza/

[Eloquent pilgrim]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

This is nonsense. No, Hamas is not in charge of all UN food parcels entering Gaza or distribution of fuel, water, medical supplies etc

 

Who is in charge then ..... and will whoever it is, take over the negotiations being brokered by Qatar and Egypt for a ceasefire; once you have been kind enough to inform Qatar and Egypt who it is of course; because, like the rest of us, I don't think they have any idea who it is. You seem to be the only one that knows, but you insist on keeping the information to yourself 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

Who is in charge then ..... and will whoever it is, take over the negotiations being brokered by Qatar and Egypt for a ceasefire; once you have been kind enough to inform Qatar and Egypt who it is of course; because, like the rest of us, I don't think they have any idea who it is. You seem to be the only one that knows, but you insist on keeping the information to yourself 

Well, Israel is the ultimate authority in most of Gaza right now. The Israelis certainly claim to be in control of most of Gaza. And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power.   As for who distributes the stuff? That's mostly the province of various UN agencies. This is basic knowledge.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Bit more than "deploying police officers and making salary payments"

 

IDF soldier killed as heavy fighting flares up again in northern Gaza

The Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday that one soldier was killed and two others were seriously wounded as heavy fighting flared again in northern Gaza, where the military had previously said it had largely completed its main operations to destroy Hamas forces.

The soldier was named as Staff Sgt. Avraham Wovagen, 21, of the Nahal Brigade’s 932nd Battalion, from Netanya. His death brought the toll of slain troops in the ground offensive against Hamas to 237.

Separately, a soldier of the 932nd Battalion and a reservist of the 636th Combat Intelligence Collection Unit were seriously wounded by an anti-tank missile in northern Gaza.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldier-killed-as-heavy-fighting-flares-up-again-in-northern-gaza/

But it doesn't mean a return to power. Just an attempt.

[Wobblybob]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, Israel is the ultimate authority in most of Gaza right now. The Israelis certainly claim to be in control of most of Gaza. And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power.   As for who distributes the stuff? That's mostly the province of various UN agencies. This is basic knowledge.

Backpedal, why don't you. Link? 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

But it doesn't mean a return to power. Just an attempt.

lol really, glad "you" think so. I wonder why John Kirby today said "it’s got to end in a way that keeps the Israeli people safe from any future attacks by Hamas, that doesn’t leave Hamas in control,"

 

Have they withdrawn from peace talks in Cairo as well

[placeholder]

18 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Nobody has seen this mythical link, is it a figment of your imagination and has it anything to do with what you are saying, go on prove us all wrong....I double dog dare you. 

I look forward to your apology.

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, Israel is the ultimate authority in most of Gaza right now. The Israelis certainly claim to be in control of most of Gaza. And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power.   As for who distributes the stuff? That's mostly the province of various UN agencies. This is basic knowledge.

 

So who is going to tell the peace-brokers in Qatar and Egypt which authority in Gaza they can now negotiate with; or it as it now seems, that the Palestinians no longer want the ceasefire they have been demanding, because their representative government is no longer in power …..

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, Israel is the ultimate authority in most of Gaza right now. The Israelis certainly claim to be in control of most of Gaza. And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power.   As for who distributes the stuff? That's mostly the province of various UN agencies. This is basic knowledge.

And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power.

 

Really, certainly? 

[Nick Carter icp]

On 2/21/2024 at 11:20 AM, placeholder said:

Deflecting much? Most legal opinion holds that Israel is the occupying and has been since 1967.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/

 

   That link doesn't back up your claims , it says various groups "argue that Israel has occupied Palestinian territories including Gaza since 1967.¹ While they acknowledge that Israel no longer had the traditional marker of effective control after the disengagement—a military presence—they hold that with the help of technology, it has maintained the requisite control in other ways."

 

   You have taken an opinion piece and added a false headline

Edited February 22 by metisdead
Oversize font reset to normal.

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I look forward to your apology.

 

What has that link got to do with the Hamas being the governing body since 2007? Let me know when there's been a regime change. Israel is waiting.

Edited February 21 by Bkk Brian

[Eloquent pilgrim]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, Israel is the ultimate authority in most of Gaza right now

 

More utter nonsense; Israel might have military control in most, or large parts of Gaza, but they are not the authority there. Hamas are still the legitimate government of Gaza, and will remain so until, or unless, they surrender their elected authority to govern, and free the hostages they are still illegally and immorally holding.

 

 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

So who is going to tell the peace-brokers in Qatar and Egypt which authority in Gaza they can now negotiate with; or it as it now seems, that the Palestinians no longer want the ceasefire they have been demanding, because their representative government is no longer in power …..

Just because Israel is negotiating with the military wing of Hamas, that doesn't mean it considers that it's negotiating with the government of Hamas.  As you clearly don't recall, this subthread  began because you put forth the ridiculous notion that Hamas is still responsible for the safety of Gazans because it wasn't overthrown by them. That it was largely overthrown by the Israelis is apparently an irrelevant detail to you. . But then, you also believe that Hamas is distributing stuff in Gaza under the blind gaze of Israeli troops. Are you in doubt that Israeli troops are occupying most of the country? That Israel was widely held to be the occupying power even before the Gaza War? Does Israel recognize the authority of the Gazan government to carry out normal governmental functions like policing?

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

What has that link got to do with the Hamas being the governing body since 2007? Let me know when there's been a regime change. Israel is waiting.

Does Israel recognize that Hamas is still the government of Gaza? Does it allow Hamas governmental officials to carry out their ordinary duties such as policing?

[placeholder]

16 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

More utter nonsense; Israel might have military control in most, or large parts of Gaza, but they are not the authority there. Hamas are still the legitimate government of Gaza, and will remain so until, or unless, they surrender their elected authority to govern, and free the hostages they are still illegally and immorally holding.

 

 

Israel is not the authority there? So Hamas government workers are allowed to exert the authority of the Hamas led government? And Israel defers to their decisions? 

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Does Israel recognize that Hamas is still the government of Gaza? Does it allow Hamas governmental officials to carry out their ordinary duties such as policing?

Does Israel recognize that Hamas is still the government of Gaza?

 

Well this is what you claimed: "And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power."

 

Link?

 

Yes Hamas police are everywhere, just follow the aid trucks:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zxaVZWnrUA

 

Edited February 21 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Does Israel recognize that Hamas is still the government of Gaza?

 

Well this is what you claimed: "And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power."

 

Link?

 

Yes Hamas police are everywhere, just follow the aid trucks:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zxaVZWnrUA

 

 

"According to Sutterfeld, Israeli forces earlier this month killed Palestinian police — among them Hamas operatives — protecting a UN aid convoy in the enclave’s southern city of Rafah. As a result, Sutterfeld said they have since refused to protect convoys, hampering aid deliveries inside Gaza because of threats from criminal gangs.

“With the departure of police escorts, it has been virtually impossible for the UN or anyone else, Jordan, the UAE, or any other implementer to safely move assistance in Gaza because of criminal elements,” Satterfield said."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-envoy-israel-hasnt-provided-specific-evidence-hamas-is-stealing-aid-shipments/

[Wobblybob]

42 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I look forward to your apology.

 

Don't hold your breath...... show a link that Hamas is not in charge of Gaza and stop being disingenuous. 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

"According to Sutterfeld, Israeli forces earlier this month killed Palestinian police — among them Hamas operatives — protecting a UN aid convoy in the enclave’s southern city of Rafah. As a result, Sutterfeld said they have since refused to protect convoys, hampering aid deliveries inside Gaza because of threats from criminal gangs.

“With the departure of police escorts, it has been virtually impossible for the UN or anyone else, Jordan, the UAE, or any other implementer to safely move assistance in Gaza because of criminal elements,” Satterfield said."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-envoy-israel-hasnt-provided-specific-evidence-hamas-is-stealing-aid-shipments/

Waiting for this elusive link to your claim again, how many times will I need to ask? "And they certainly deny that Hamas is still in power."

 

"Hamas has not said if it has stopped police escorts of aid convoys."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-envoy-idf-killed-palestinian-cops-escorting-gaza-aid-convoy-leading-them-to-refuse-missions/

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Don't hold your breath...... show a link that Hamas is not in charge of Gaza and stop being disingenuous. 

You need a link to prove that Hamas is not in charge in Gaza? Are they giving orders to the Israelis? What are they telling the Israelis? Please bomb us and be ruthless about it? Don't spare any of us?

[Nick Carter icp]

9 hours ago, retarius said:

Very stupid to call anyone who disagree with slaughter of innocents as 'Israel/Jew haters'. I disagree with the slaughter and wish it would stop, end off story. I cannot understand tpeople who try to justify it, especially those that take the easy route, avoid arguing the morals and call everyone who disagrees with the Jew Haters. 

 

   Yes, no one wants to slaughter of innocents and we all wish that it would stop .

To make the slaughter of innocents stop, then you need to stop the people doing it 

The people who did the slaughtering of innocents on Oct 7 th need to be bought to justice , either jailed or killed , so they cannot do it again 

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You need a link to prove that Hamas is not in charge in Gaza? Are they giving orders to the Israelis? What are they telling the Israelis? Please bomb us and be ruthless about it? Don't spare any of us?

Please bomb us and be ruthless about it? Don't spare any of us?

 

Life means nothing to a martyr, especially if your a Hamas member and put civilians in the way.

 

But their orders are a little more vile and to do with the hostages they hold. I trust you've never seen their propaganda videos

Edited February 21 by Bkk Brian

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You need a link to prove that Hamas is not in charge in Gaza? Are they giving orders to the Israelis? What are they telling the Israelis? Please bomb us and be ruthless about it? Don't spare any of us?

 

   Do you really not know what's going on ?

A quick explanation for you .

Hamas ruled Gaza , Israel attacked Gaza and now Israel controls some of the land and Hamas control's the other