Expat Tax Twists in Thailand: Navigating the New Landscape in 2024

[Reginald Prewster]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

DTA's provide a lot of relief for many people, including the fact that any tax paid on income in the home country can be used to offset any tax liability in Thailand.

After decades tax free income I have now to pay tax in Taiwan and there is no comearound.

The Thai tax office couldn't help me as I thought I will gladly pay the Thai tax rather than the Taiwanese.

 

Money gets sent from Scotland (recruiter) to Thailand but still I am considered a residential Tax payer in Taiwan.

In my case Thai Tax could have saved me 14%... 

[stix40]

Gifting Wife

So I gift my wife 1 million baht per year ..

Then we live off her money for the year 

Is that possible? 

 

How you gift 2 million baht to wife and the following year she gifts back 1 million baht back .

Is that possible??

 

 

 

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Whether or not the gift is taxable and the rate, depends on the relationship between the parties involved. 

 

https://sherrings.com/gift-tax-law-in-thailand.html

Thanks a million...actually 10 million...for this info. Just solved all of whatever little worries I had. 👍👍👍

[spidermike007]

7 hours ago, Bobthegimp said:

The article is worth a read.

 

Their take is that this is a "tax the poor" scheme, whereby people can give gifts up to 20 million baht to their spouse or be here on a Long Term Resident's Visa and pay zero tax.  They claim that dual tax agreements might provide "some" relief for pensioners, where most tax treaties strictly forbid dual taxation of pensions.  

 

We'll see. 

So, in theory, I can wire transfer 1 million baht, or more, twice a year to my wife, without any issues? If so, this solves the problem for many of us. As long as we are able do it in lump sums. Correct?

[topt]

33 minutes ago, Wrwest said:

OK, we have been faced with this since late last year and the water is still over.y murky. I am being told conflicting information from tax accounting firms here in Thailand with the bottom line that no one can definitively say what will be true. Time to start leaning on our respective diplomatic/national taxing communities to press the Kingdom of Thailand to publicly state there will be no effect on long term Thai residents form foreign countries until and unless the Kingdom of Thailand gives definitive absolute rules and at least a one year notice of these rules before implementation. This will give long term foreign residents the opportunity to leave Thailand. The various diplomatic missions have the responsibility to clearly tell its nationals if the existing tax agreements/tax treaties will protect their nationals from double taxation or a complicated Thai tax reporting burden. 

Seriously? What planet have you been living on..........sheesh

[proton]

Bad article as it does no mention the exemption allowances which previous posts have said if over 65 you can transfer 400k in a year tax free, then there is the gift clause to the mrs etc. No worries for most, you can also use ATM's and bring in 20k baht in cash. I don't intend to give these buggers anything in tax on transfers.

[CFCol]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Income earned before 1 January 2024 is not taxable here.

I'm pretty certain any funds brought in after 1/1/24 are taxable.

[traveller101]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

All Thais with income are obliged to declare it and pay tax if applicable - many are within the exempt bracket.  Income-earning Thais do not have any exemption from filing a tax return.   Who are "the Thais earning a lot of money" who are exempted from tax to whom you refer?

The following numbers for 2020 have been published by a news source that cannot be referred to according to Forum rules.

Total number of Tax payers recorded in the tax system: 9.55 Million

Taxpayers earning >25'000baht p.m.: 3.3 Million

Taxpayers earning <25'000 baht p.m. (below the threshold to file tax returns): 6.25 Million

I refer to to 22.4 Million people who are between 15 and 65 years old and are active members of the workforce, but not recorded by the Revenue Department

Based on the following relevant Key Data:

Total Population: 67 Million

Population <15 years of age: 10.6 M

Population >65 years of age:  8.7 M

working-age Population:       47.7 M

 

Participation rate: 67%

67% of the working-age population

are active members of the workforce - 31.9 Million people.

Of those 31.95 Million, 9.55 Million are recorded in the Tax system.

I hazard a guess that the Op referred to the:

 

22.4 Million people who are an active part of the workforce but are not registered with Thailand's Tax Department.

 

Common sense would dictate that not all of these 22 4 Million are in the "exempt bracket" (earning less than 25'000 baht per month) and furthermore not even recorded by the Revenue Department.

 

 

 

[Gilligan In Drag]

The way I understand it is, If your country has a tax treaty with Thailand, and many do, you still only owe tax in  your country if your country like the United States taxes you regardless of where you live. I don't owe th US anything because I make less than 70 thousand per year, so now it looks I'll have to pay Thailand taxes, unless paying no taxes because nothing is owed is considered paying taxes which I  am sure they are not so generous as to alllow that.

[Liverpool Lou]

35 minutes ago, traveller101 said:

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

All Thais with income are obliged to declare it and pay tax if applicable - many are within the exempt bracket.  Income-earning Thais do not have any exemption from filing a tax return.   Who are "the Thais earning a lot of money" who are exempted from tax to whom you refer?

The following numbers for 2020 have been published by a news source that cannot be referred to according to Forum rules.

Yes, the Bangkok Post reported that also. 

 

I correct myself...All persons earning income are required to file a tax return except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons.

Edited February 10 by Liverpool Lou

[Srikcir]

"Earned income"

According to the US Internal Revenue Service, "earned income" does not include amounts such as pensions and annuities, welfare benefits, unemployment compensation, worker's compensation benefits, or social security benefits. Given the US-Thailand double taxation treaty it would seem exempt from Thailand taxation.

https://www.irs.gov/government-entities/indian-tribal-governments/itg-faq-2-answer-what-income-is-considered-earned-income

 

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Gilligan In Drag said:

The way I understand it is, If your country has a tax treaty with Thailand, and many do, you still only owe tax in  your country if your country like the United States taxes you regardless of where you live. I don't owe th US anything because I make less than 70 thousand per year, so now it looks I'll have to pay Thailand taxes, unless paying no taxes because nothing is owed is considered paying taxes which I  am sure they are not so generous as to alllow that.

Sort of/not really, you might want to read the tax guide linked earlier

[Jonathan Swift]

3 hours ago, creative1000 said:

Is moving money (earned 10 years ago) from a usa bank account to Thailand bank now taxable this year? I’ve heard so many answers

There is another fairly credible story on this topic here on aseannow, which stated that yes, any money brought in to Thailand is taxable. The exception would be for US Social Security, which is not "assessable". The question would be, if a third party such as Wise were used for the transfer, would we have to provide proof that this was Social Security income? And what proof? I have Social Security benefit letters and tax form statements and am hoping if necessary they would be sufficient.  Another question would be, will Thai banks now voluntarily submit reports of such transfers to the Thai tax office, or is there any privacy protection for the bank account holder to prevent that? In other words, is this an honor system where the accountholder is responsible for declaring the transfer as income? In my case I transfer my Social Security income once a month using Wise. I have no idea how this will work out due to the aforementioned unknowns. Also, will immigration get involved when expats provide income information for visa renewal purposes? That sounds like a hot mess in the making. 

[CharlieKo]

On 2/10/2024 at 1:15 PM, The Cyclist said:

Any article that states " All income to be taxed " give it a good, stiff ignoring.

***Removed by Moderator - UK State Pension IS regarded as income under Thai tax rules ***

 

Also just how many of you are exempt from paying tax in your home country? Did any of you notify the tax authority you do not live in that country permanently? Unless you are recognised as tax exempt in your home country. You could still be liable for tax in that country if you gain income from any assets. This may also be a reason why Thai RD may no be interested in taxing your pension regardless of any DTA. 

 

They don't want to waste time on a tax return where there is not tax to collect! 

 

You all need to go speak with your local RD and see what they say. There seems to be too much confusion  on this topic.  

[Bday Prang]

3 hours ago, 1happykamper said:

.. and if I do pay taxes in Thailand.. what will I get in return ? 555

A warm comforting feeling, that you have "done the right thing"   and the right to comment on here with a sense of smug superiority, like those who call for overstayers to be hung drawn and quartered..  You may also get a nice  receipt  

[riverhigh]

3 hours ago, 1happykamper said:

.. and if I do pay taxes in Thailand.. what will I get in return ? 555

As it stands right now, absolutely nothing. Same immigration BS and no benefits. Just deplorable. As previously mentioned, your money will go to feed the corrupt hi-sos who will be laughing at you.

[MurakamiX]

I'd love to see them try and enforce all of this. 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Wrwest said:

OK, we have been faced with this since late last year and the water is still over.y murky. I am being told conflicting information from tax accounting firms here in Thailand with the bottom line that no one can definitively say what will be true. Time to start leaning on our respective diplomatic/national taxing communities to press the Kingdom of Thailand to publicly state there will be no effect on long term Thai residents form foreign countries until and unless the Kingdom of Thailand gives definitive absolute rules and at least a one year notice of these rules before implementation. This will give long term foreign residents the opportunity to leave Thailand. The various diplomatic missions have the responsibility to clearly tell its nationals if the existing tax agreements/tax treaties will protect their nationals from double taxation or a complicated Thai tax reporting burden. 

A bit of an over dramatization I would suggest, I doubt very much that many long term expats will be leaving Thailand as a result of this change. And to be clear, it is not the responsibility of the embassies to tell its citizens about the new tax law in Thailand, it is the responsibility of foreign residents to find out. I suggest reading the linked tax guide is a reasonable place to start.

[Bday Prang]

Just now, MurakamiX said:

I'd love to see them try and enforce all of this. 

especially on those who do not frequent this forum and remain blissfully ignorant regarding the whole issue.   They will have their hands full dealing with those who are already queuing up to request Tax ID numbers in order to  notify the authorities about their income. They may get round to the rest of us in due course, on the other hand they may not

[Robin]

My retirement plan is t sell my property in UK and liv here on the proceeds.  Will the money from property sale be classified as 'income'?  The property is owned outright and been paid for years ago.  Not subject to UK CGT. 

All seems a very grey area.  How will RD know what is going on? 

Say I visit UK once a year and bring back £5k  in cash.  the change to ThB at one of the money changers, not a bank.  Who will know what is going on?

[Srikcir]

26 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

So where did the big cash deposit come from in your bank book? 

What if it came from 20 years of your foreign homeland bank savings, regardless of the source?

Since not "earned" post December 31, 2023 then not taxable by Thailand beginning January 1, 2024? If Last in, first out (LIFO) method of accounting is used, what Thailand should tax are amounts added to your bank account after exhausting your bank account basis created by prior savings.

Let's say you pull money from a Thai ATM with a foreign homeland credit/debit card. How does Thailand even capture this transaction much less know whether funds are post 2023 funds?

There can be a lot of nuances of circumstances to this new tax and they all should have been addressed with certainty and specific instructions prior to implementation. But apparently, a rush is on to balance the new budget.

 

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

I get the feeling many on this topic do not realise that a state pension is not classified as income under Thai Tax rules.

 

Also just how many of you are exempt from paying tax in your home country? Did any of you notify the tax authority you do not live in that country permanently? Unless you are recognised as tax exempt in your home country. You could still be liable for tax in that country if you gain income from any assets. This may also be a reason why Thai RD may no be interested in taxing your pension regardless of any DTA. 

 

They don't want to waste time on a tax return where there is not tax to collect! 

 

You all need to go speak with your local RD and see what they say. There seems to be too much confusion  on this topic.  

UK State Pension is regarded as assessable income under Thai tax law, it is not excluded income that is exempt under the DTA, only government pensions are exempt.

 

If you do not live in the UK permanently and are registered as non resident for tax purposes, you must still pay UK tax on any income that arises there. 

 

YOU really should read the tax guide, here's a link:

 

[Andrew65]

6 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

Thailand want to country to be for retirees... but with all visa requirements as 65k a month per person or 800.000 per person on a bank account and now extra tax payment, combined with all kind of other general laws as alcohol sales ban, double pricing also in hospitals, scam by taxis. Thailand will never be a country to be the country to retire as they want. And worst of all is that most Thais don't even have to fill in a tax form, while some as we have seen last months ear a lot of money without any taxpaying, again double standards for the foreigners

Many working class Thais don't earn enough to be paying income tax.

An old expat retiree friend lives in lower Sukhumvit (an expensive area). He pays around 400k Baht per year in rent, so 800k is a reasonable amount to expect him to have. If you live up in the boonies I expect you could get-by on half that.

[MadMac]

Guess that's it for the foreign buyers condo boom.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, MadMac said:

Guess that's it for the foreign buyers condo boom.

If it was, you would have heard the market sector screaming at the top of their lungs, which we haven't. And since the PM is an ex CEO of a major property developer, that's all the more reason to believe there wont be any impact whatsoever.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

If you are a retiree, you still have to show 800,000 baht in the bank or equivalent in monthly pension, ATM or no ATM.  Any incoming remittances after Jan. 2024 must be included in a Thai tax return, no matter the source of funds. If you have paid tax on the incoming amount, you have to prove it.  If you don't file a tax return here, you are liable for interest, penalties, tax owing and if serious enough, jail time.

Totally untrue. As things stand presently, excluded income does not have to be shown on the Thai tax return, there is no place to put it.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

So, in theory, I can wire transfer 1 million baht, or more, twice a year to my wife, without any issues? If so, this solves the problem for many of us. As long as we are able do it in lump sums. Correct?

 

I hear wedding bells in the near future.  A bunch of them...

 

[Gilligan In Drag]

Not to dismiss the reality of this, as some kind of new thing, I suppose it depends on where you are from  but my spidey sense is

telling me this is all  not going to come to anything.

 

How long will it take them to actually enforce these rules, though I am not very well read on this issue,

I haven't seen anything mentioned about how they plan to make this work. Are they really prepared to get the banks in on this, which I think they will have to, are they going to provide reporting forms in English, which they should if the idea is to start taxing foreigners. How many foreigners will just give up on paying taxes if they can't read the forms? Are they really going to send you a return if you overpaid?

 

They are proposing to tax people who have very little income, about 3 thousand dollars a year is the starting point it looks like and you'll be paying them 150 dollars on that. If your income is 3 thousand dollars a year, you likely don't have 150 dollars lying around. And as you go up the scale, if i recall correctly,  the percentage you owe increases very steeply, so I think even people earning a barely living wage will be hard pressed to pay the amount, its like 30 percent if you are making say 12,000 dollars a year. Again, on that kind of income, you won't likely be able to cough up 3,600 dollars. So have they got the fully armed with automatic weapons tax officials like the have in the United States to bust into your place and seize your asset, yes, thats singular, asset, as in a phone or a computer, if you don;t pay? I can't see that. Seems they will have to start working very closely with the banks and immigration, literally taking the amount before any money transfer arrives in your account. Thais don't like cooperating others if they feel they have significnt position or authority such as head immigration or head of a major nbank. I wouldn't think government officials would be trusted enough to be allowed near a bank and access to its files and operations as may ne needed in the case making the banks become arms of the government as tax collectors.

 

Maybe things have changed recently, but I seem to recall a lot of talk about the Thai Tax organization, literally a family mafia, the Wongsawats having difficulty collecting taxes from most people. A good chunk of Thais do not respect tax authorities and rightly so. If you work for the government or as an employee of a registered business OK yes, your employer will have a motive to do tax collection for the government, but most people are rather lose ends and it is purely voluntary. Yer village papaya pok pok stand will not face any consequences for non-compliance. They may have the means to stop street vendors in Bangkok but theres another 40 million people at large outside of Bangkok.

 

I'm suspicious that all of this is so that we don't completely forget who these people are. People on here say they are doing the right thing by paying, maybe if you are wealthy, otherwise I don't think so. You are not being left with enough to live on suddenly. You are depriving your family in lieu of handing a large chunk of your income to people who clearly are not benefiting the country and who themselves are not in any basic needs that you taxes will provide. For Thais, Education is not provided for, money for the old and disabled is a bad joke at 600 baht per month, health care for the poor is terrible, my step daughter has a serious condition, they say they  will provide her meds, but they are often out of stock, and she would have a problem if she didn't pay out of pocket half the time. So I have a hard time believing, suddenly, the whole shabby mess has been whipped into shape and welcome to the machine, you will pay your tax whether you can or not, and no stone will go untaxed in Thailand.

[CharlieKo]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If you do not live in the UK permanently and are registered as non resident for tax purposes, you must still pay UK tax on any income that arises there.

I am registered as non resident, I get the state pension and was getting an income up to a couple years ago from assets. Sold those assets a couple of years ago. But I gain interest on what is now savings in the bank. I get that as a gross amount not ta deducted. My accountant told me that HMRC have said I do not need to make a UK tax return in the future. Or they will contact me if they think I need to submit a return. 

 

I suggest that what my post said is essentially the same as what you mentioned " you must still pay UK tax on any income that arises there". 

 

As a side note. I am not sure if HMRC expect me to declare the interest earned on savings to the Thai RD. When Thai RD would only be taxing income brought into the country! But and this is something I need to find out. With the Pension and interest earned, it takes me over the tax free threshold. So I am aware I may have to pay tax on that in the UK. But that would then negate paying taxes here in Thailand as my state pension would also have been taxed. 

 

Having been to my local RD when applying for a TIN, they said as long as I pay tax in the UK, they weren't interested in collecting taxes from me.

 

That is my experience.

 

   

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Gilligan In Drag said:

Not to dismiss the reality of this, as some kind of new thing, I suppose it depends on where you are from  but my spidey sense is

telling me this is all  not going to come to anything.

 

How long will it take them to actually enforce these rules, though I am not very well read on this issue,

I haven't seen anything mentioned about how they plan to make this work. Are they really prepared to get the banks in on this, which I think they will have to, are they going to provide reporting forms in English, which they should if the idea is to start taxing foreigners. How many foreigners will just give up on paying taxes if they can't read the forms? Are they really going to send you a return if you overpaid?

 

They are proposing to tax people who have very little income, about 3 thousand dollars a year is the starting point it looks like and you'll be paying them 150 dollars on that. If your income is 3 thousand dollars a year, you likely don't have 150 dollars lying around. And as you go up the scale, if i recall correctly,  the percentage you owe increases very steeply, so I think even people earning a barely living wage will be hard pressed to pay the amount, its like 30 percent if you are making say 12,000 dollars a year. Again, on that kind of income, you won't likely be able to cough up 3,600 dollars. So have they got the fully armed with automatic weapons tax officials like the have in the United States to bust into your place and seize your asset, yes, thats singular, asset, as in a phone or a computer, if you don;t pay? I can't see that. Seems they will have to start working very closely with the banks and immigration, literally taking the amount before any money transfer arrives in your account. Thais don't like cooperating others if they feel they have significnt position or authority such as head immigration or head of a major nbank. I wouldn't think government officials would be trusted enough to be allowed near a bank and access to its files and operations as may ne needed in the case making the banks become arms of the government as tax collectors.

 

Maybe things have changed recently, but I seem to recall a lot of talk about the Thai Tax organization, literally a family mafia, the Wongsawats having difficulty collecting taxes from most people. A good chunk of Thais do not respect tax authorities and rightly so. If you work for the government or as an employee of a registered business OK yes, your employer will have a motive to do tax collection for the government, but most people are rather lose ends and it is purely voluntary. Yer village papaya pok pok stand will not face any consequences for non-compliance. They may have the means to stop street vendors in Bangkok but theres another 40 million people at large outside of Bangkok.

 

I'm suspicious that all of this is so that we don't completely forget who these people are. People on here say they are doing the right thing by paying, maybe if you are wealthy, otherwise I don't think so. You are not being left with enough to live on suddenly. You are depriving your family in lieu of handing a large chunk of your income to people who clearly are not benefiting the country and who themselves are not in any basic needs that you taxes will provide. For Thais, Education is not provided for, money for the old and disabled is a bad joke at 600 baht per month, health care for the poor is terrible, my step daughter has a serious condition, they say they  will provide her meds, but they are often out of stock, and she would have a problem if she didn't pay out of pocket half the time. So I have a hard time believing, suddenly, the whole shabby mess has been whipped into shape and welcome to the machine, you will pay your tax whether you can or not, and no stone will go untaxed in Thailand.

You really need to do some reading and relax a little.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/