Bye bye Electric & Hello Hydrogen?

[SpaceKadet]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

And the energy to split the water??

 

See the post above yours. The process is incredibly inefficient.

Not entirely so. Hydrogen production can be easily accomplished in a nuclear power plant. In fact, many new SMR designs include a hydrogen production plugin, as well as desalination plugin. Using a nuclear reaction for production of other desirables just increases its efficiency.

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, SpaceKadet said:

Not entirely so. Hydrogen production can be easily accomplished in a nuclear power plant. In fact, many new SMR designs include a hydrogen production plugin, as well as desalination plugin. Using a nuclear reaction for production of other desirables just increases its efficiency.

 

I think that's called Pink Hydrogen IIRC.

 

McKinsey discounted it.

 

There is only country say they are going to do it, that would be Japan and I don't believe they will, I think their auto-manufacturers had some input on that announcement.

 

It's not going to happen.

[Lacessit]

41 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I don't see how it can be.  There is no clear path.

IIRC that was said of EV's, until lithium batteries came along.

[xtrnuno41]

23 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The cost and inconvenience of Hydrogen means it will never replace BEV's.

 

People keep saying the cost will drop and processes will improve, however even with perfect efficiencies in each process, it will still be 3 to 4 times more expensive per kilometer.

 

If governments started subsidising Hydrogen, that would make a difference, but no government can afford that.

 

The McKinsey report on Hydrogen says it will be used in trucks and PSV's, not cars, and for the reasons I've outlined.

 

We've tried Hydrogen cars, the experiment in every country it's been tried ended in failure.

I guess you didnt read what I wrote. My government is doing, subsidizing  7 projects in H2.

I guess gasturbines will could maybe be converted to H2 burning gasturbines.

SHELL is building a H2 complex to run.

https://www.shell.com/news-and-insights/newsroom/news-and-media-releases/2022/shell-to-start-building-europes-largest-renewable-hydrogen-plant.html

3 projects on putting CO2 underground.

Already one H2 project running.

 

You do have now electric cars, it was the first bend road they took.

But also electric cars exist since long time, 1890.

But we choose petrol !

Now more and more H2 is coming up, so will also be with cars. Same as electric really kicked in  with Tesla. A Fisker for instance is gone.

Give it some time and you ll see. However could reverse to, from CO2 made, petrol?

The mission is too cut on CO2. but if recycled ok then?

You see now companies starting sucking out CO2 with devices, maybe put bill to government?

Ah, I see they are selling the CO2 !

https://www.science.org/content/article/switzerland-giant-new-machine-sucking-carbon-directly-air

Fact is they signed punishing agreements to reduce, eliminate CO2.

With an H2 car , you have enough on a 5 kg or less tank. Vans are now with 5 kg and bigger trucks on 8 kg tanks and they should be able to refill in normal way. 3-5 minutes.

However there is still a big battery in it, I would have thought less.

For the Mirai it is however less expensive then for a Tesla to buy. 1000-4000$ 

Found you this movie, simple 

 

[JBChiangRai]

9 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

I guess you didnt read what I wrote. My government is doing, subsidizing  7 projects in H2.

I guess gasturbines will could maybe be converted to H2 burning gasturbines.

SHELL is building a H2 complex to run.

https://www.shell.com/news-and-insights/newsroom/news-and-media-releases/2022/shell-to-start-building-europes-largest-renewable-hydrogen-plant.html

3 projects on putting CO2 underground.

Already one H2 project running.

 

You do have now electric cars, it was the first bend road they took.

But also electric cars exist since long time, 1890.

But we choose petrol !

Now more and more H2 is coming up, so will also be with cars. Same as electric really kicked in  with Tesla. A Fisker for instance is gone.

Give it some time and you ll see. However could reverse to, from CO2 made, petrol?

The mission is too cut on CO2. but if recycled ok then?

You see now companies starting sucking out CO2 with devices, maybe put bill to government?

Ah, I see they are selling the CO2 !

https://www.science.org/content/article/switzerland-giant-new-machine-sucking-carbon-directly-air

Fact is they signed punishing agreements to reduce, eliminate CO2.

With an H2 car , you have enough on a 5 kg or less tank. Vans are now with 5 kg and bigger trucks on 8 kg tanks and they should be able to refill in normal way. 3-5 minutes.

However there is still a big battery in it, I would have thought less.

For the Mirai it is however less expensive then for a Tesla to buy. 1000-4000$ 

Found you this movie, simple 

 

I guess you didn’t read my post about the cost of hydrogen being four or five times more than electricity?

 

And perhaps you didn’t read my post about the countries that have tried hydrogen cars and failed?

 

There are abandoned Toyota Mirai’s in Norway at closed hydrogen, fueling stations, customers have just left them and walked away.

I do know about hydrogen production, and it is needed for the markets I specified, long range trucks, and PSV’s, but you won’t be seeing it in passenger cars anytime soon.

Edited August 23 by JBChiangRai
Spelting

[xtrnuno41]

34 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I guess you didn’t read my post about the cost of hydrogen being four or five times more than electricity?

 

And perhaps you didn’t read my post about the countries that have tried hydrogen cars and failed?

 

There are abandoned Toyota Mirai’s in Norway at closed hydrogen, fueling stations, customers have just left them and walked away.

I do know about hydrogen production, and it is needed for the markets I specified, long range trucks, and PSV’s, but you won’t be seeing it in passenger cars anytime soon.

Well no problem, we have both our opinions.

It is very logical if you try to tank at closed H2 stations, you cant get any.  And leave your car. if you want to get home. Same as with any other car.

EU is setting real in on H2 and you can read in this article China is doing the same.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/german-auto-giants-place-their-bets-hydrogen-cars-2021-09-22/

I still think it is a matter of time and they will come. Yes the fuel cell is expensive, yet.

2 cars now H2, Toyota and Hyundai, but BMW is already investigating with an X5, Audi is mentioned and also VW. So they will all come. Especially when H2 is thriving in EU, they are pushing real hard on an H2 EU. Maybe take 5 years(?). 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

45 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Well no problem, we have both our opinions.

It is very logical if you try to tank at closed H2 stations, you cant get any.  And leave your car. if you want to get home. Same as with any other car.

EU is setting real in on H2 and you can read in this article China is doing the same.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/german-auto-giants-place-their-bets-hydrogen-cars-2021-09-22/

I still think it is a matter of time and they will come. Yes the fuel cell is expensive, yet.

2 cars now H2, Toyota and Hyundai, but BMW is already investigating with an X5, Audi is mentioned and also VW. So they will all come. Especially when H2 is thriving in EU, they are pushing real hard on an H2 EU. Maybe take 5 years(?). 

 

 

There is a scenario where I think we might see hydrogen cars alongside BEV’s.

 

if there is a shortage of lithium, or it becomes cheaper to make a hydrogen car that is cheaper than a BEV then they could be offered alongside BEV’s.

 

They will be much more expensive to run, which will have to make them cheaper to buy, and if there’s a shortage of lithium, then BEV cars will be more expensive, and market dynamics will take care of the rest. BEV.’s will be everybody’s first choice, but if they can’t afford it, they will go to hydrogen.
 

When I said there is a Toyota Mirai abandoned at a Norway hydrogen station that has closed, I didn’t mean for a day or two, it’s been there for a year.

 

There may be some countries where BEV is not practical.

 

I think it’s already too late for hydrogen cars to takeoff, people love BEV, they love waking up with a full tank of fuel and the Cost to run is so cheap

Edited August 23 by JBChiangRai
Spelling

[SpaceKadet]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think that's called Pink Hydrogen IIRC.

 

McKinsey discounted it.

 

There is only country say they are going to do it, that would be Japan and I don't believe they will, I think their auto-manufacturers had some input on that announcement.

 

It's not going to happen.

Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.

Don't entirely agree with McKinsey, they are just full of speculations.

If any country can do it, it will be Japan. They seem to pursue other means of engine propulsion now, but still haven't discarded hydrogen for industrial use and commercial traffic.

Seem they want to break the Chinese domination on the electric/battery market.

Edited August 23 by SpaceKadet
typo

[JBChiangRai]

12 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

Not entirely so. Hydrogen production can be easily accomplished in a nuclear power plant. In fact, many new SMR designs include a hydrogen production plugin, as well as desalination plugin. Using a nuclear reaction for production of other desirables just increases its efficiency.

 

I have a problem with this graphic.

 

Hydrogen is made 2 ways.  In the first we use the most expensive electricity on the planet (Nuclear produced) and waste a third of it producing Hydrogen (the 33% waste is Oxygen).

 

In  the 2nd way, I assume we are talking about water splitting, it uses a lot of energy, energy that could be used spinning a turbine making electricity, a similar amount of energy to Electrolysis, again equally expensive.

[SpaceKadet]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:03 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

I have a problem with this graphic.

 

Hydrogen is made 2 ways.  In the first we use the most expensive electricity on the planet (Nuclear produced) and waste a third of it producing Hydrogen (the 33% waste is Oxygen).

 

In  the 2nd way, I assume we are talking about water splitting, it uses a lot of energy, energy that could be used spinning a turbine making electricity, a similar amount of energy to Electrolysis, again equally expensive.

The graphic is a generic to illustrate the processes only. There are no reactor designs that would use reactor coolant to directly feed the turbine. In fact, that would be impossible, as well as dangerous. There is always a heat exchanger and steam generator before the turbine.

 

The nuclear reactors use two metrics to define their energy output. Wt (watt thermal) and We (watt electric). They always generate more thermal energy than can be converted to electricity.

 

The cost of nuclear is merely a consequence of political decisions, not entirely its inherent cost. The efficiency of electrolysis process is 70-80%. Expected to be improved to 85% by 2030. By comparison, the ICE in your car has only 40-45% efficiency. And it’s not 33% waste, go back to your chemistry class, please. Besides, I would not regard oxygen as waste. There are many industrial uses for oxygen. Remember just a few years ago when all the hospitals complained about the shortages of oxygen?

 

The thermochemical cycle process is less efficient, at around 50%, but as you can see in the graphic, it uses the residual thermal energy after the conversion to electric, so no, it could not be used to spin another turbine. The chemical compounds used in these processes are continuously recycled, so no wastage and pollution.

[connda]

On 2/19/2024 at 4:45 PM, Crossy said:

Simple question.

 

Where will the hydrogen come from?

 

"But but but - hydrogen is "clean energy." 

More energy is expended to create hydrogen that what you get out of it. 
Here - just erase "Electric" and replace it with "Hydrogen."

[rickudon]

Sodium based batteries are already in production, much greater life expectancy than Lithium and no shortage of Sodium, also cheaper. Just one drawback, currently half the capacity. The BEV of the future?

[JBChiangRai]

40 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Sodium based batteries are already in production, much greater life expectancy than Lithium and no shortage of Sodium, also cheaper. Just one drawback, currently half the capacity. The BEV of the future?

 

Perfect for town cars.

[JBChiangRai]

40 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Sodium based batteries are already in production, much greater life expectancy than Lithium and no shortage of Sodium, also cheaper. Just one drawback, currently half the capacity. The BEV of the future?

 

Perfect for town cars.

[rickudon]

5 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Perfect for town cars.

Exactly. My ICE Nissan March has never been driven more than 150 km in a day, now 12 years old. Typically just used for school runs and shopping.

[JBChiangRai]

A simple graphic about why we won't be buying Hydrogen passenger vehicles.

 

Overly complex and inefficient process.

 

 

[KhunLA]

39 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

A simple graphic about why we won't be buying Hydrogen passenger vehicles.

 

Overly complex and inefficient process.

Don't know how that doesn't sink into some folks.   As if oil to petrol isn't already complicated enough ...   

 

What next, nuclear fuel rods,  just fill up with water at home ... 

Edited September 2 by KhunLA

[Crossy]

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

There is another issue with HFCEV and H-ICE.

 

Hydrogen is a very small molecule, it tends to work it's way through seals and high-pressure containers.

 

Enclosed is a graph of the increase in concentration of Hydrogen found in a parked HFCEV Hydrogen container in a sealed room over 8 hours.

 

 

Besides the additional expense and complexity of HFCEV over EV's, you might like to consider leakage and safety.  Especially if you're not using your vehicle every day.

 

Experimental Study on Hydrogen Leakage and Emission of Fuel Cell Vehicles in Confined Spaces | Automotive Innovation (springer.com)

 

[JBChiangRai]

Enclosed is a graphic (modified from ExpatOilWorker) with Thai baht costs on it (4.1 baht per kilowatt hour).

 

In reality, you can multiple the Hydrogen costs by at least 1.5 as the production/distribution chain will want some profit, may the government will want some fuel tax too?

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

Shell shuts down 5 H2 stations and cancels 48 new ones. 

 

Apparently, the transition from EVs to Hydrogen is not going well

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

What a surprise!

 

It’s not like we didn’t predict this two years ago.

[UWEB]

Doesn't wonder me, Germany had to stop using some Hydrogen powered Trains as they can't get enough supply and using Diesel Trains now again.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, UWEB said:

Doesn't wonder me, Germany had to stop using some Hydrogen powered Trains as they can't get enough supply and using Diesel Trains now again.

The long-term solution for trains is to electrify them with overhead rails.

 

I do think hydrogen has a place for long haul freight transport, but it’s not really suitable for cars.

[tgw]

23 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The long-term solution for trains is to electrify them with overhead rails.

 

I do think hydrogen has a place for long haul freight transport, but it’s not really suitable for cars.

 

Hydrogen needs more R&D, the technology isn't ready yet.

[UWEB]

25 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The long-term solution for trains is to electrify them with overhead rails.

 

I do think hydrogen has a place for long haul freight transport, but it’s not really suitable for cars.

In remote Areas with 2 or 3 Trains a day is it more economical to use Diesel or Hydrogen Trains.

[motdaeng]

2 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

Hydrogen needs more R&D, the technology isn't ready yet.

 

they have been working on research and development for hydrogen vehicles for centuries, with only limited success so far, or perhaps more accurately, mostly failure ... but who knows what the future holds ...

[novacova]

36 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The long-term solution for trains is to electrify them with overhead rails.

What happens when the power is cut? Dead on the rails. The only solution for trains is diesel, especially freight trains where 2-6 locomotives with low end torque are needed to climb hills. How about onboard nuclear powered trains and vehicles…yeah now I’m interested.

[JBChiangRai]

The UK has a superb electrified train network between all major cities.

 

Branch lines were diesel-electric when I last noticed about 20 years ago.

 

The best way to generate Hydrogen is electrolysis with renewables. If the wind doesn’t blow or the sun doesn’t shine, then it doesn’t matter there’s always tomorrow

 

In generating hydrogen this way you have to acknowledge that the process is inefficient so it’s only really suitable for those means of transport where battery electric is not feasible. You can’t put batteries in trains, for example.

[david555]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:27 PM, Ben Zioner said:

Hydrogen can be produced through electrolysis, hence solar. It will happen but sadly the highest potential for production will be in the hands of people who have the strange habit of using tablecloths as headwear.

 

Hydrogen won't be a source of energy, only a means of storage.

"Hydrogen won't be a source of energy, only a means of storage."

 

same for electric cars , why else they need a battery to store their electric energy  ☺️