Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

I'm not criticizing Israel for wanting to DEFEND its own citizens. I'm criticizing Israel for the nature of the IDF's bombing and invasion of Gaza.

 

It's like love and marriage.......you can't have one without the other.

Yes, there are some that think you can't have love and marriage without beating your wife... 🥹

[rattlesnake]

17 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   That link doesn't back up your  claim that

    "and in the growing conclusion of most of the world, the IDF's barbarous military actions in Gaza do have a large quality of "revenge" about them."

   "Revenge" wasn't even mentioned 

 

Lots of qualified analysts have indicated that there was an element of vengeance in Israel's actions, with all the drawbacks it entails. In addition to being devastating to the image of Israel, these current actions are creating a new generation of Israel-hating combatants.

 

From last November:

 

A Meaningful Endgame in Gaza Will Separate Transformation from Revenge

“The desire is understandable for revenge. But vengeance is not a strategy,” said former CIA Director and retired General David Petraeus of the current Israeli military actions in Gaza.

[...]

Petraeus likewise cautioned about the reality of the day after, asking, “Will this operation take more bad guys off the street than it creates by its conduct?’ 

 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/meaningful-endgame-gaza-will-separate-transformation-revenge


 

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Please refer to my quote from your link.

Please refer to the link from my post.

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, there are some that think you can't have love and marriage without beating your wife... 🥹

Gone over your head?

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

So you and that former officer of the IDF say....

No the UN does. 

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, there are some that think you can't have love and marriage without beating your wife... 🥹

Gone over your head?

No, but I'm sure many of my posts go over yours...

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Lots of qualified analysts have indicated that there was an element of vengeance in Israel's actions, with all the drawbacks it entails. In addition to being devastating to the image of Israel, these current actions are creating a new generation of Israel-hating combatants.

 

A Meaningful Endgame in Gaza Will Separate Transformation from Revenge

“The desire is understandable for revenge. But vengeance is not a strategy,” said former CIA Director and retired General David Petraeus of the current Israeli military actions in Gaza.

[...]

Petraeus likewise cautioned about the reality of the day after, asking, “Will this operation take more bad guys off the street than it creates by its conduct?’ 

 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/meaningful-endgame-gaza-will-separate-transformation-revenge

 

  The hatred of Israel was already 100 % among Gazians , even prior to the war, they wanted all Israelis dead and gone .

   This war isnt going to change Gazains opinions much 

[Wobblybob]

Just now, WDSmart said:

No, but I'm sure many of my posts go over yours...

William is losing it, things not going his way. You haven't made one valid point from start to finish.

[WDSmart]

8 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

William is losing it, things not going his way. You haven't made one valid point from start to finish.

All my posts make the points I want to make. You may not consider those points valid, but others on this forum and I do.

I can't entirely agree with most of your posts, but I usually can see the point you are trying to make. And, of course, that is usually something to denigrate Palestinians and/or extoll Israelis. 

[Bkk Brian]

New vote at the UN today

 

UN Security Council to vote on new resolution calling for immediate Gaza ceasefire, release of hostages

The UN Security Council is set to vote on a new draft resolution on an “immediate” ceasefire in Gaza, after Russia and China vetoed an earlier text proposed by the United States.

The new text, according to the version seen by AFP, “demands an immediate ceasefire” for the ongoing Muslim holy month of Ramadan, “leading to a permanent sustainable ceasefire.”

It also “demands the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages as well as the “lifting of all barriers to the provision of humanitarian assistance at scale.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/un-security-council-to-vote-on-new-resolution-calling-for-immediate-gaza-ceasefire-release-of-hostages/

 

Senator Rick Scott

https://twitter.com/SenRickScott/status/1772049827389444519

 

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

All my posts make the points I want to make. You may not consider those points valid, but others on this forum and I do.

I can't entirely agree with most of your posts, but I usually can see the point you are trying to make. And, of course, that is usually something to denigrate Palestinians and/or extoll Israelis. 

It is not too difficult to denigrate phycopathic killers.

You cannot understand or refuse to understand that all this is the making of Hamas and the Israelis actions are a result of the massacres. 

[Neeranam]

5 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Situation: The police are chasing a man who has just committed multiple homicides. He breaks into a house, gathers up a family (man, woman, and two kids), and barricades himself in a room with them. The police enter the house and break down the door to the room. The murderer is armed and is in a corner of the room holding the family, who are now bound, in front of him.

Human shields should never be accepted as collateral damage or justified in the pursuit of military objectives. 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Human shields should never be accepted as collateral damage or justified in the pursuit of military objectives. 

Correct, you should tell Hamas to stop using them

[WDSmart]

33 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

It is not too difficult to denigrate phycopathic killers.

You cannot understand or refuse to understand that all this is the making of Hamas and the Israelis actions are a result of the massacres. 

I don't agree with that. This is not ALL the making of Hamas. I consider ALL the massacres that have occurred over the past 80 years or so.

[WDSmart]

16 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Correct, you should tell Hamas to stop using them

..and tell the IDF to stop killing them.

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

I don't agree with that. This is not ALL the making of Hamas. I consider ALL the massacres that have occurred over the past 80 years or so.

Of course you do William, if you believed that the war really started on 7/10 that would dismantle the whole framework of your argument and you wouldn't be able to blame Israel. 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

..and tell the IDF to stop killing them.

 tedious baiting, if they were not there then they would not be harmed, its Hamas malicious intend to sacrifice them, this has already been discussed

[WDSmart]

12 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Of course you do William, if you believed that the war really started on 7/10 that would dismantle the whole framework of your argument and you wouldn't be able to blame Israel. 

Yes! Exactly! But I don't believe this "war" started on Oct 7, or at least Oct 7 was just another stage of an 80-year-long war. If there had been no problems for the past 80 years, or even the past year, I'd agree that all this started on Oct 7. But it didn't, 

[Neeranam]

21 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

..and tell the IDF to stop killing them.

Of course, it doesn't matter where the human shields came from, or who put them there, they should not be killed. Jeez, what's the point of having human shields otherwise. Israel are the only country that I know of, well maybe Syria that have no problem slaughtering innocent kids and women used as shields as they don't believe them to be human. 

How can anyone in their right mind say otherwise? The whole world, bar Israel fundamentalists agree that it is wrong. 

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 tedious baiting, if they were not there then they would not be harmed, its Hamas malicious intend to sacrifice them, this has already been discussed

No, it's not "baiting at all. It's correcting your statements.

For example, above, you say, "...if they were not there, then they would not be harmed..." Yes, and if the IDF were not there, they would not be harmed either. These Palestinians have a right to be there. Gaza is their home. The IDF has no right to be there except, in their mind, they have the right to engage in a revengeful invasion of Gaza, looking for anyone they consider to be Hamas to kill. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Neeranam said:

Of course, it doesn't matter where the human shields came from, or who put them there, they should not be killed. Jeez, what's the point of having human shields otherwise. Israel are the only country that I know of, well maybe Syria that have no problem slaughtering innocent kids and women used as shields as they don't believe them to be human. 

How can anyone in their right mind say otherwise? The whole world, bar Israel fundamentalists agree that it is wrong. 

The IDF do everything they can to avoid killing them:

 

The reality is that when it comes to avoiding civilian harm, there is no modern comparison to Israel's war against Hamas. Israel is not fighting a battle like Fallujah, Mosul, or Raqqa; it is fighting a war involving synchronous major urban battles. No military in modern history has faced over 30,000 urban defenders in more than seven cities using human shields and hiding in hundreds of miles of underground networks purposely built under civilian sites, while holding hundreds of hostages.

Despite the unique challenges Israel faces in its war against Hamas, it has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

No, it's not "baiting at all. It's correcting your statements.

For example, above, you say, "...if they were not there, then they would not be harmed..." Yes, and if the IDF were not there, they would not be harmed either. These Palestinians have a right to be there. Gaza is their home. The IDF has no right to be there except, in their mind, they have the right to engage in a revengeful invasion of Gaza, looking for anyone they consider to be Hamas to kill. 

Its baiting, we discussed this before 

[Neeranam]

22 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, it's not "baiting at all. It's correcting your statements.

For example, above, you say, "...if they were not there, then they would not be harmed..." Yes, and if the IDF were not there, they would not be harmed either. These Palestinians have a right to be there. Gaza is their home. The IDF has no right to be there except, in their mind, they have the right to engage in a revengeful invasion of Gaza, looking for anyone they consider to be Hamas to kill. 

Well said, that's exactly the situation. 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Well said, that's exactly the situation. 

No its not actually there are hostages that Hamas has taken and the IDF is also looking for them, you keep forgetting about them.

[WDSmart]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No its not actually there are hostages that Hamas has taken and the IDF is also looking for them, you keep forgetting about them.

I'm not forgetting about them. Israel seems to have, except I've heard hints on CNN that a new proposal from Israel is being presented that would include the exchange of about 60 hostages for a ceasefire (how long, I don't know) and probably other things from both sides. We'll just have to wait and see if that's true, and if it is, what the details are and if Hamas agrees to it.

[rattlesnake]

37 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The IDF do everything they can to avoid killing them:

 

The reality is that when it comes to avoiding civilian harm, there is no modern comparison to Israel's war against Hamas. Israel is not fighting a battle like Fallujah, Mosul, or Raqqa; it is fighting a war involving synchronous major urban battles. No military in modern history has faced over 30,000 urban defenders in more than seven cities using human shields and hiding in hundreds of miles of underground networks purposely built under civilian sites, while holding hundreds of hostages.

Despite the unique challenges Israel faces in its war against Hamas, it has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

 

Israel’s supporters mention the policy of not targeting civilians to draw a civilizational distinction between it and Hamas, which systematically targeted civilians, including children and infants, in its brutal war crimes on Oct. 7. But citing the policy is not a rebuttal as much as it is a diversion. To comply with international humanitarian law, a country is not only obligated to aim at military targets, but also to minimize civilian deaths.

 

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/israel-target-civilians-gaza-fetterman-rcna123890

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I'm not forgetting about them. Israel seems to have, except I've heard hints on CNN that a new proposal from Israel is being presented that would include the exchange of about 60 hostages for a ceasefire (how long, I don't know) and probably other things from both sides. We'll just have to wait and see if that's true, and if it is, what the details are and if Hamas agrees to it.

Yes you did, stop lying, they are nowhere in the post referenced

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Israel’s supporters mention the policy of not targeting civilians to draw a civilizational distinction between it and Hamas, which systematically targeted civilians, including children and infants, in its brutal war crimes on Oct. 7. But citing the policy is not a rebuttal as much as it is a diversion. To comply with international humanitarian law, a country is not only obligated to aim at military targets, but also to minimize civilian deaths.

 

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/israel-target-civilians-gaza-fetterman-rcna123890

To comply with international humanitarian law

 

Can you tell me what they are not complying with?

 

The Lawful Killing of Civilians Under International Humanitarian Law

https://www.e-ir.info/2022/05/27/the-lawful-killing-of-civilians-under-international-humanitarian-law

 

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule14

[Wobblybob]

48 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes! Exactly! But I don't believe this "war" started on Oct 7, or at least Oct 7 was just another stage of an 80-year-long war. If there had been no problems for the past 80 years, or even the past year, I'd agree that all this started on Oct 7. But it didn't, 

You'd believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden if it meant you could blame Israel. Even your own link agreed this war started on 7/10. Stop being so disingenuous!

[Neeranam]

Antony Blinken – The Man Responsible For Genocide In Gaza

 

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/antony-blinken-the-man-responsible-for-genocide-in-gaza/