Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Very nice OPINION piece as stated, we will probably never know the full cost in human lives until all the bodies under the rubble are included in the count.

This is not an opinion:

 

"Yet in a series of lengthy reports, the ministry admits that the figures the media treat as authoritative rely in part on reporting from . . . the media. The ministry says its casualty counts include two types of fatalities: those recorded by medical facilities and those reported by “reliable media sources.” In its March 31 report, the ministry attributes 15,070 of the dead, or 45.9%, to news reports. From which outlets? The ministry never says."

 

And that is further evidenced in previous links I posted

[Wobblybob]

14 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Very nice OPINION piece as stated, we will probably never know the full cost in human lives until all the bodies under the rubble are included in the count.

Yes I quite agree, Hamas have such a lot to answer for starting a war and using their civilians as human shields!

[Wobblybob]

10 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

7 April 2024:

Israel steps up preparation for Rafah invasion despite Western warnings
 

The EU and U.S. have warned of a humanitarian catastrophe if Israel goes ahead with its planned offensive.

The U.S. and other Western allies have repeatedly called on Israel not to launch an all-out attack on Rafah, the last remaining area that has not come under the control of the IDF; Washington has called for a more targeted approach that would minimize civilian casualties.
In a statement when the operation was initially announced in February, the EU’s top diplomat, Josep Borrell, said the bloc “is very concerned about Israeli government plans for a possible ground operation in Rafah, where well over a million Palestinians are currently sheltering from the fighting.”

https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-troops-prepare-rafah-invasion-gaza/

Yes it reminds me of the idiom "don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar".

[Bkk Brian]

Kirby says US looking to hold in-person meeting with Israel in ‘next week or so’

On Sunday, Kirby referenced the plan for the forthcoming meeting, saying, “We hope to be able to present in more detail, our thinking, some of our alternatives, the kinds of things that we want them to learn from our own experiences, about how to do operations of this regard.”

When Israeli officials canceled the planned delegation to the U.S., Kirby responded at the time by saying the White House was “perplexed” by that decision. He said the White House’s abstention to the U.N. resolution was not a shift in its policy.

“A couple of points that need to be stated and in fact, restated. No. 1, it’s a nonbinding resolution. So, there’s no impact at all on Israel and Israel’s ability to continue to go after Hamas,” Kirby said at the time. “No. 2 … it does not represent a change at all in our policy. It’s very consistent with everything that we’ve been saying we want to get done here. And, we get to decide what our policy is.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4579422-kirby-says-us-looking-to-hold-in-person-meeting-with-israel-in-next-week-or-so/

[xylophone]

As this thread is a "general discussion" about the Israel/Hamas conflict, I thought I would add something which came to mind whilst I was watching the BBC news last night, where various people were discussing the number of Palestinian casualties and blaming Israel for this.

 

It sprang to mind that this is a war started by Hamas, which is the governing party of Gaza, and who mercilessly slaughtered over 1200 innocents, as well as taking hostages. That being the case, Israel has retaliated even more mercilessly so and as Hamas fighters are inextricably intertwined with Palestinians, it's difficult to separate the two.

 

I have mentioned before about "the casualties of war" and innocents are those very people and it also takes me back to previous wars whereby, for example, Germany invaded countries and killed between 15 and 31 million people, and in the end, the German hierarchy, both military and otherwise, were held accountable for those deaths.

 

Hamas started this war and must bear the blame for any other deaths which occur since the first incursion and slaughter of Israelis, and to blame the Israelis for any deaths since then overlooks the fact that war was started and the Israelis want to put an end to it by eliminating Hamas, or by demanding the return of the hostages.

 

Hamas refuses to return the hostages, so the war goes on and more people die and all because Hamas and the government of Gaza decided to wage war – – it is that simple for me, and people/organisations crying out because of the deaths of "innocent people" should remember who started it and who was responsible for it and they should bear the blame, irrespective of the body count.

 

I sincerely hope that Israel continue what they are doing and endeavour to wipe out Hamas and the scum that they are, even if there are other casualties, which has occurred in just about every other war since time immemorial.

[rattlesnake]

8 April 2024:

Israel’s war on Gaza live: Palestinians return to destroyed Khan Younis

Palestinians return to destroyed homes in Khan Younis as most Israeli troops withdraw months after they invaded the city in southern Gaza.
At least 33,175 Palestinians have been killed and 75,886 wounded in Israeli attacks on Gaza since October 7. The death toll in Israel from Hamas’s October 7 attack stands at 1,139, with dozens still held captive.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/4/8/israels-war-on-gaza-live-palestinians-return-to-destroyed-khan-younis

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, xylophone said:

As this thread is a "general discussion" about the Israel/Hamas conflict, I thought I would add something which came to mind whilst I was watching the BBC news last night, where various people were discussing the number of Palestinian casualties and blaming Israel for this.

 

It sprang to mind that this is a war started by Hamas, which is the governing party of Gaza, and who mercilessly slaughtered over 1200 innocents, as well as taking hostages. That being the case, Israel has retaliated even more mercilessly so and as Hamas fighters are inextricably intertwined with Palestinians, it's difficult to separate the two.

 

I have mentioned before about "the casualties of war" and innocents are those very people and it also takes me back to previous wars whereby, for example, Germany invaded countries and killed between 15 and 31 million people, and in the end, the German hierarchy, both military and otherwise, were held accountable for those deaths.

 

Hamas started this war and must bear the blame for any other deaths which occur since the first incursion and slaughter of Israelis, and to blame the Israelis for any deaths since then overlooks the fact that war was started and the Israelis want to put an end to it by eliminating Hamas, or by demanding the return of the hostages.

 

Hamas refuses to return the hostages, so the war goes on and more people die and all because Hamas and the government of Gaza decided to wage war – – it is that simple for me, and people/organisations crying out because of the deaths of "innocent people" should remember who started it and who was responsible for it and they should bear the blame, irrespective of the body count.

 

I sincerely hope that Israel continue what they are doing and endeavour to wipe out Hamas and the scum that they are, even if there are other casualties, which has occurred in just about every other war since time immemorial.

Hamas refuses to return the hostages, so the war goes on and more people die and all because Hamas and the government of Gaza decided to wage war – – it is that simple for me

 

100% agree, and that one quote I copied says it all for me to.

[Bkk Brian]

The world ‘has a great deal to learn’ from Israel’s military

One of the UK’s most senior military figures has said that the rest of the world has “a great deal to learn from Israel” in its war against Hamas.

Colonel Richard Kemp, who has commanded British troops in Afghanistan, Iraq and Northern Ireland and has spent much of his career fighting terrorism, said: “I believe Israel will emerge strengthened [from the war], with military leaders from around the world going to Israel to find out how they did it.”

Kemp was speaking at a vigil at St John’s Wood Synagogue in north-west London to mark six months after October 7 when 1,200 people in southern Israel were murdered by Hamas terrorists and around 250 taken hostage.

https://www.thejc.com/community/the-world-has-a-great-deal-to-learn-from-israels-military-wlysc01q

[Nick Carter icp]

13 hours ago, placeholder said:

I'm not about to engage in giving you a course in remedial reading. My schadenfreude, if it exists, would be from the fact that your predictions have failed and your ignorance exposed. Much the way that I might have enjoyed the discomfort of the neocons when their predictions about Iraq failed.

 

   Been a bit hasty there .

Looks like the war isn't over 

Netanyahu has just announced there is an enter Rafah date 

 

 

"Israel-Gaza latest: Hamas rejects latest ceasefire proposal - as 'date set' for Rafah ground offensive

Hamas has rejected Israel's latest ceasefire proposal, despite reports suggesting talks had been progressing well. Meanwhile, Benjamin Netanyahu says a date has been set for a ground offensive in Rafah - which he has long been warned against."

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-hamas-latest-ceasefire-sky-news-blog-12978800

[Jeff the Chef]

9 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The world ‘has a great deal to learn’ from Israel’s military

One of the UK’s most senior military figures has said that the rest of the world has “a great deal to learn from Israel” in its war against Hamas.

Colonel Richard Kemp, who has commanded British troops in Afghanistan, Iraq and Northern Ireland and has spent much of his career fighting terrorism, said: “I believe Israel will emerge strengthened [from the war], with military leaders from around the world going to Israel to find out how they did it.”

Kemp was speaking at a vigil at St John’s Wood Synagogue in north-west London to mark six months after October 7 when 1,200 people in southern Israel were murdered by Hamas terrorists and around 250 taken hostage.

https://www.thejc.com/community/the-world-has-a-great-deal-to-learn-from-israels-military-wlysc01q

 

Revealed: BBC failed to declare interviewee’s links to the Israeli army
Newsnight’s military expert Richard Kemp is head of a charity funded by the Israeli Defence Forces.

Appearing on the BBC’s flagship daily news and current affairs programme last week to discuss the war in Gaza and pro-Palestine marches in the UK, Colonel Richard Kemp was introduced as “a former army officer and terrorism expert who sat on the government’s Joint Intelligence Committee”.

But what host Kirsty Wark did not mention was that Kemp is also a director and trustee of an organisation that both raises money for and is funded by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF).

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/bbc-newsnight-failed-declare-richard-kemp-link-idf-israel-army-gaza-palestine/

Edited April 9 by Jeff the Chef
Added link

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Revealed: BBC failed to declare interviewee’s links to the Israeli army
Newsnight’s military expert Richard Kemp is head of a charity funded by the Israeli Defence Forces.

Appearing on the BBC’s flagship daily news and current affairs programme last week to discuss the war in Gaza and pro-Palestine marches in the UK, Colonel Richard Kemp was introduced as “a former army officer and terrorism expert who sat on the government’s Joint Intelligence Committee”.

But what host Kirsty Wark did not mention was that Kemp is also a director and trustee of an organisation that both raises money for and is funded by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF).

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/bbc-newsnight-failed-declare-richard-kemp-link-idf-israel-army-gaza-palestine/

So what, this was not on the BBC, it was a talk he gave at a vigil at St John’s Wood Synagogue in north-west London to mark six months after October 7 when 1,200 people in southern Israel were murdered by Hamas terrorists and around 250 taken hostage. Over 130 are still held hostage, of whom around 30 are believed to have been murdered in captivity.

 

"Having spent much of the last six months in Israel, including with the IDF in Gaza, Kemp told attendees that the “genocide” claims were “obscene” when Israel “itself was a victim of Hamas terrorists with genocidal intent”.

Recounting sitting with the IDF when they were planning an operation and how they were going to minimise casualties of civilians who were sheltering in a school, he said: “An army has never taken steps to minimise civilian casualties as much as the IDF.”

[Jeff the Chef]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

So what, this was not on the BBC, it was a talk he gave at a vigil at St John’s Wood Synagogue in north-west London to mark six months after October 7 when 1,200 people in southern Israel were murdered by Hamas terrorists and around 250 taken hostage. Over 130 are still held hostage, of whom around 30 are believed to have been murdered in captivity.

 

"Having spent much of the last six months in Israel, including with the IDF in Gaza, Kemp told attendees that the “genocide” claims were “obscene” when Israel “itself was a victim of Hamas terrorists with genocidal intent”.

Recounting sitting with the IDF when they were planning an operation and how they were going to minimise casualties of civilians who were sheltering in a school, he said: “An army has never taken steps to minimise civilian casualties as much as the IDF.”

 

Yes, of course he said that, wouldn't expect anything else but a one-sided view.

If it was the opposite or anything not pro-IDF you wouldn't of posted it.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Yes, of course he said that, wouldn't expect anything else but a one-sided view.

If it was the opposite or anything not pro-IDF you wouldn't of posted it.

Both experts with a huge amount of experience, one from the US the other UK

 

Richard Kemp: “An army has never taken steps to minimise civilian casualties as much as the IDF.”

 

John Spencer "Israel Implemented More Measures to Prevent Civilian Casualties Than Any Other Nation in History"

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yet another article on the dodgy Hamas death figures and women/children percentages, seem to be getting one a week now!

 

Hamas’s Casualty Numbers Games
As Israeli troops batter Hamas and drive its surviving forces to the southern edge of the Gaza Strip, the Gaza Health Ministry has etched in the public mind a statistic that casts Israel’s war of self-defense as a bloodbath: 70% of the dead in Gaza are women and children, the Hamas-run ministry says, and more than 30,000 lives in total have been lost. Is it true?

Yet in a series of lengthy reports, the ministry admits that the figures the media treat as authoritative rely in part on reporting from . . . the media. The ministry says its casualty counts include two types of fatalities: those recorded by medical facilities and those reported by “reliable media sources.” In its March 31 report, the ministry attributes 15,070 of the dead, or 45.9%, to news reports. From which outlets? The ministry never says.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hamass-numbers-games-civilian-death-counts-casualty-data-b99140eb

https://archive.ph/JYQFg

Is it your contention that if the death toll of Gazans is less than published by the Gaza Health Ministry it is all right to have killed them? Even if it was 50% less, that would be over 15,000 dead, mostly women and children, and we will probably never know the real figure. When very big bombs blow up people, there isn't much left but bits. Who is going to count the numbers of little feet and hands to know? Then there are all those buried in the rubble that can't be counted.

 

What is known though, is that surely all Gazans now vehemently hate israelis, and that is a legacy that israelis are going to regret for generations to come.

Welcome to the forever war.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Is it your contention that if the death toll of Gazans is less than published by the Gaza Health Ministry it is all right to have killed them? Even if it was 50% less, that would be over 15,000 dead, mostly women and children, and we will probably never know the real figure. When very big bombs blow up people, there isn't much left but bits. Who is going to count the numbers of little feet and hands to know? Then there are all those buried in the rubble that can't be counted.

 

What is known though, is that surely all Gazans now vehemently hate israelis, and that is a legacy that israelis are going to regret for generations to come.

Welcome to the forever war.

If I got back to you with facts and figures would you respond? Because I've never once had a response from you when I have replied to a post of yours? So I am not going to waste my time on this one as all the links to your questions have already been posted here.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The world ‘has a great deal to learn’ from Israel’s military

One of the UK’s most senior military figures has said that the rest of the world has “a great deal to learn from Israel” in its war against Hamas.

Colonel Richard Kemp, who has commanded British troops in Afghanistan, Iraq and Northern Ireland and has spent much of his career fighting terrorism, said: “I believe Israel will emerge strengthened [from the war], with military leaders from around the world going to Israel to find out how they did it.”

Kemp was speaking at a vigil at St John’s Wood Synagogue in north-west London to mark six months after October 7 when 1,200 people in southern Israel were murdered by Hamas terrorists and around 250 taken hostage.

https://www.thejc.com/community/the-world-has-a-great-deal-to-learn-from-israels-military-wlysc01q

Hmmmm. I wonder how many other countries will want to mass murder civilians by bombing them in their houses, starve them and then shoot them when they try to get food, humiliate them, arbitrarily arrest them, lock them up for years without charge, destroy their economies, destroy their hospitals and schools, and commit collective punishment on them for resisting while their land is being stolen.

 

Hopefully no civilized ones will.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmm. I wonder how many other countries will want to mass murder civilians by bombing them in their houses, starve them and then shoot them when they try to get food, humiliate them, arbitrarily arrest them, lock them up for years without charge, destroy their economies, destroy their hospitals and schools, and commit collective punishment on them for resisting while their land is being stolen.

 

Hopefully no civilized ones will.

As predicted you don't really want an answer you just want to rant with your usual nonsense.

 

Now your back to your misinformation and false claims that Israel is mass murdering civilians. 

 

We know you'd rather not have Israel around as a state because of the way you spell it. You are a Hamas apologist and a vile one at that with all the false information you try to spread. Why have you never called for the unconditional release of the hostages as instructed by the UN, the ICJ and just about everyone else apart from Hamas?

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As predicted you don't really want an answer you just want to rant with your usual nonsense.

 

Now your back to your misinformation and false claims that Israel is mass murdering civilians. 

 

We know you'd rather not have Israel around as a state because of the way you spell it. You are a Hamas apologist and a vile one at that with all the false information you try to spread. Why have you never called for the unconditional release of the hostages as instructed by the UN, the ICJ and just about everyone else apart from Hamas?

Unless you can quote me apologising for Hamas you are making that up.

Unless you can prove I'm posting false information you are making that up too.

 

It's a shame that you attack me personally, rather what I say, which is why I have you on ignore.

 

I have said that Hamas should not release the hostages without a guaranteed ceasefire and resumption of all aid as sent prior to October 7, as without a permanent ceasefire I believe if the hostages are released without a guaranteed permanent ceasefire israel will simply bomb Gaza into a waste land, along with all the people- I believe nothing that netanyahu says, so the ceasefire would need to be enforced by armed forces capable and willing to repel an israeli attack- ie not American or British or European.

 

I support only the civilians of Gaza being killed by israelis.

 

We know you'd rather not have Israel around as a state

I do wish you would stop telling me what I want, when you have no idea.

I want israel to withdraw to it's legal borders, which are those given by the UN in 1947/48. That means that they have to get out of the West Bank, all of Gaza and Jerusalem, to which they have no legal claim.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Unless you can quote me apologising for Hamas you are making that up.

Unless you can prove I'm posting false information you are making that up too.

 

It's a shame that you attack me personally, rather what I say, which is why I have you on ignore.

 

I have said that Hamas should not release the hostages without a guaranteed ceasefire and resumption of all aid as sent prior to October 7, as without a permanent ceasefire I believe if the hostages are released without a guaranteed permanent ceasefire israel will simply bomb Gaza into a waste land, along with all the people- I believe nothing that netanyahu says, so the ceasefire would need to be enforced by armed forces capable and willing to repel an israeli attack- ie not American or British or European.

 

I support only the civilians of Gaza being killed by israelis.

 

We know you'd rather not have Israel around as a state

I do wish you would stop telling me what I want, when you have no idea.

I want israel to withdraw to it's legal borders, which are those given by the UN in 1947/48. That means that they have to get out of the West Bank, all of Gaza and Jerusalem, to which they have no legal claim.

You whole post had Hamas apologist all over it and your false claims of Israel mass murdering civilians is just that. False. Noted you ignore the call to release hostages unconditionally. 

 

You can get back to Al Jazeera now and feel warm and cozy.

[Wobblybob]

You would have to be pretty naive to believe anything that comes out of a terrorists mouth but it seems some people hang on to their every word, why one has to ask ourselves.🥴

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Both experts with a huge amount of experience, one from the US the other UK

 

Richard Kemp: “An army has never taken steps to minimise civilian casualties as much as the IDF.”

 

John Spencer "Israel Implemented More Measures to Prevent Civilian Casualties Than Any Other Nation in History"

 

So first I debunk the neutrality of your first "expert" so you post another who is just another ally of Israel from the USA, the real winners of this conflict, follow the money. 

[Rimmer]

An inflammatory post has been removed

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

So first I debunk the neutrality of your first "expert" so you post another who is just another ally of Israel from the USA, the real winners of this conflict, follow the money. 

I would address your post with facts but you decided to end it with a conspiracy theory so I will leave it there.

[Bkk Brian]

What we all knew, 100's of Gazan civilians joined Hamas into Israel on the 7th Oct with some taking part in kidnapping. The going rate was about $10,000 apparently.

 

Israeli nurse abducted on October 7 kidnapped by Palestinian CIVILIANS then sold to Hamas

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324466-israeli-nurse-abducted-on-october-7-kidnapped-by-palestinian-civilians-then-sold-to-hamas

 

[Danny Australia]

 

 

Israel's barbarism and cruelty is on display for the entire world to see. This should never be allowed to happen again.  

 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

 

Israel's barbarism and cruelty is on display for the entire world to see. This should never be allowed to happen again.  

 

You should tell Hamas to stop using civilian infrastructure to hide and fight from. You should also tell Hamas to stop building tunnel networks under Khan Younis. Finally tell them to stop using hospitals as command centers and as with Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, keeping 30 hostages in rooms there.

 

Its a dirty war Hamas is carrying out.

[xylophone]

7 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

 

Israel's barbarism and cruelty is on display for the entire world to see. This should never be allowed to happen again.  

 

You could also post the pics of the Hamas raid in October because their barbarism and cruelty was also on display......if you start a war then you must be prepared to face the consequences, and in any war there are civilian casualties, and this is no different.

 

I hope that Israel continues its assault and wipes Hamas and its supporters off the face of the earth, and many innocents will suffer as has always been the case in wars. Hamas started it and hopefully Israel will finish it.

[Neeranam]

57 minutes ago, xylophone said:

You could also post the pics of the Hamas raid in October because their barbarism and cruelty was also on display......if you start a war then you must be prepared to face the consequences, and in any war there are civilian casualties, and this is no different.

 

I hope that Israel continues its assault and wipes Hamas and its supporters off the face of the earth, and many innocents will suffer as has always been the case in wars. Hamas started it and hopefully Israel will finish it.

António Guterres said Hamas attacks didn't happen in a vacuum, they had been due to years of suffocating occupation’ ’What does this mean to you? To me, it means Hamas did not start this 'war'. The head of the UN!

 

You appear to think this is a war like others in the past. Can you tell me another war where only one side's civilians were being killed? 

 

Do you think your hope of further Israel action, killing Hamas, and innocent women/kids will end the conflict? I don't. Frankly, it's quite a hope for me to understand. 

Have you any idea the suffering that Gazans will face in the future, loss of families, PTSD, no homes etc? 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

António Guterres said Hamas attacks didn't happen in a vacuum, they had been due to years of suffocating occupation’ ’What does this mean to you? To me, it means Hamas did not start this 'war'. The head of the UN!

 

You appear to think this is a war like others in the past. Can you tell me another war where only one side's civilians were being killed? 

 

Do you think your hope of further Israel action, killing Hamas, and innocent women/kids will end the conflict? I don't. Frankly, it's quite a hope for me to understand. 

Have you any idea the suffering that Gazans will face in the future, loss of families, PTSD, no homes etc? 

Who cares what the bloke thinks, did he mention the execution of 1200 civilians in cold blood........?  🤔

[Wobblybob]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

António Guterres said Hamas attacks didn't happen in a vacuum, they had been due to years of suffocating occupation’ ’What does this mean to you? To me, it means Hamas did not start this 'war'. The head of the UN!

 

You appear to think this is a war like others in the past. Can you tell me another war where only one side's civilians were being killed? 

 

Do you think your hope of further Israel action, killing Hamas, and innocent women/kids will end the conflict? I don't. Frankly, it's quite a hope for me to understand. 

Have you any idea the suffering that Gazans will face in the future, loss of families, PTSD, no homes etc? 

Maybe Hamas should have thought about that before inflicting their evil actions before invading Israel, actions have consequences.